all fong

Curious what anyone who has ridden both the older 11 speed Etap red and the newer 12 speed Force Etap axs think between the two? Is the newer Etap AXS worth it?

I'm looking at a bike that has the option of the newer force Etap axs for less than the older force 11 speed Etap red.

The faster shifting for the AXS set, better disc break performance and compensation shifting (adjusts rear derailleur to offset shifts with the front chainring) are promising features to me.

I don't feel like 12 speed is a necessity and has more expensive replacement parts, though I'm guessing that price will come down as 12 speed gets more popular. The force axs is also 300g heavier, will probably feel like a wash, but I am getting a steel frame and trying to save weight on wheels and group set.

I'm used to 7800 dura ace on my old bike. Tried Di2 and am not a fan of the shifting. It's winter here and trying to shift with winter gloves wasn't fun. Too much fiddling. I did feel like I had better 'feel' in the pull with the disc breaks. Though the guy at my LBS said that was easily adjustable on both SRAM and Shimano.

And yes this is a splurge, have always ridden older bikes. My last bike I bought 8 years ago, used. I'm now in a position where I can spend $5k on a bike and want to buy something I can happily ride for a lifetime.

topflightpro

Functionally, I don't think they are that different. The biggest change is the cassette, with AXS using XDR freehubs and older Etap using more traditional splined systems.

So, figure out which freehub system you want to use and go with that. (Note: It is possible to swap freehub bodies on many wheelsets.)

all fong

is there a big difference in functionality between xdr and traditional that should be aware of? From what I've read it works on all hubs (besides Shimano).

@topflightpro, have you ridden both?

bahula03

The XDR freehub is there to accommodate the requirements of having a 10 tooth sprocket on the cassette and is (IIRC) a tiny smidgen wider than the traditional Shimano/SRAM splined freehub body. Most hubs with a replaceable freehub that are compatible with XDR can also have a traditional splined freehub installed nbd.

As far as your original question, the thing that would concern me is that the first generation eTap Red isn't compatible at all with the newer AXS stuff (which itself requires a bunch of propriety components). If what happened with the first gen Dura Ace Di2 is any indication, that'd be reason enough to stay away from 11spd eTap IMO.

all fong

What happened with gen 1 dura ace di2?

Ald1 

I have both. Aside from going from 11 to 12 speed, Red offers sequential shifting and more app interfaces, the other does not. With this feature you do not shift the front (but you can, if you want) the system will shift the front up or down, as needed, to the next gear ratio when shifting the back. Believe DII has this and Red played catch up. Really love both but Red is a nice improvement. There are XDR adapters to convert the 11 speed hub to 12. You can also go from 12 rear hub to 11 with a spacer. I have a wheel set I'd like to do this with but cannot find this part for sale anywhere. Anyone can help, much appreciated.

DaveSSS 

Only certain hubs can be converted to XDR, certainly no genuine shimano hubs. Campy/Fulcrum hubs can. FWIW, there is little difference in sprocket spacing between Campy and SRAM 12. SRAM is slightly wider. Bikes have already been built with Campy 12 parts, except for shifters, fd and rd that are axs 12. Some bikes will not accommodate a 48 or 46 chain ring since the fd mount won't place it low enough.

all fong

Seems like you can use a 10 speed spacer? https://help.huntbikewheels.com/supp...ssette-spacers

Are the supposed improvements in shifting speed and breaking noticable?

DaveSSS 

AFAIK, SRAM 11 speed road cassettes fit on Shimano 11 hub splines, but those are totally unlike an XDR hub. To use a SRAM 12 cassette, you must have an XDR freehub. My bet is Shimano will soon be using their microspline hub on their 12 speed groups, whenever they come out.

There is no way to go backwards from XDR freehub to any road 11 speed cassette, with a spacer. A spacer might allow an XD cassette to be used on an XDR freehub.

Rides4Beer

This was my concern with di2 as well, then I saw that you can program the hidden buttons on the tops of the hoods to shift, so that will be my workaround if I'm having trouble with gloves. New bike with di2 should be ready this week.

JohnJ80

I have two eTap Red bikes and my wife has an eTap AXS 1x gravel bike. I'd say that the AXS systems are somewhat more refined than the old eTap. Also, with the clutch RD there is less chain slap on the AXS system - another refinement but very nice.

If AXS had more choices, and specifically if they set it up so that there was a version that worked with a 50/34 compact crank, I'd look at retrofitting it to my other bikes.

The other big advantage to AXS, especially for gravel bikes or road bikes for what you want a wider tire, the FD battery positioning is such that you can go wide on AXS based drivetrains. The practical limit for most bikes with the old eTap is 35-38mm wide tires (depending on tire).

For retrofitting an older bike to electronic shifting, eTap is the way to go. Super clean installation that's really nice when finished. Di2 is difficult, or at least messy, to retrofit an older mech bike to electronic if there were not provisions built into the frame for internal routing of the cables. I retrofitted a mech bike that my son now has with eTap. Very clean installation and very easy to do. Installing eTap is stupid easy.

IIRC, if you have DT Swiss hubs you can get switch back to 11 speed if you have the free hub piece - runs around $100 or so.

Yes. This is probably the #1 ergonomic reason I switched out one of my bikes from Ultregra Di2 to eTap. I live in Minnesota and it was difficult and aggravating to shift with full finger winter gloves on. The eTap click is also more prominent which I also like.

bahula03

Not sure if I've misread what you're saying, but Force AXS 12 speed does offer both sequential and compensated shifting, just like Red.

They stopped supporting it almost immediately after the second gen, which uses a different wire to connect everything, was released.

That spacer is for using XD cassettes (ie mountain bike) on an XDR (road) freehub. If you want to use a traditional 10 or 11 speed splined cassette (the standard is called HyperGlide) on an XDR rear wheel, there isn't an adapter...you need to change the freehub body. That part will almost always come from whoever makes the hub.

Ald1 

THANKS! I'll check this out. The 11 speed e-tap is very good . Going to the 12 speed red I see a nice improvement in the front derailleur as the red has never thrown a chain while the etap did a couple of times.

JohnJ80

Yes. You do have to pretty carefully adjust the limits on the eTap Red FD. The thread locker that SRAM supplies generally needs a refresh (loctite blue). Once done, it's pretty much bulletproof.

J.