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Power Meters (Why?)

Old 10-29-19, 08:34 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
If powermeters were under $150, I would own one or a few.
And if there was a quality one that could easily apply to any crank, I would own one or a few.

They are really intriguing, but not tempting enough to spend $300-800 per bike.
Self-install crank based Avios can be had for around $160 from various UK sellers. Avio states they only work with Shimano cranks, but with a bit of ingenuity I was able to mount one to my Campagnolo Potenza crank. It required disassembly of the Avio, and the application of heat to bend the case so that it followed the contour of the crank.

John
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Old 10-29-19, 08:44 AM
  #52  
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If you're the type of person who likes to quantify and measure things, buy one.
If you're the type of person who could not care less, don't buy one.
In either case, stay in your lane.


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Old 10-29-19, 09:22 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
If powermeters were under $150, I would own one or a few.
And if there was a quality one that could easily apply to any crank, I would own one or a few.

They are really intriguing, but not tempting enough to spend $300-800 per bike.
I bought a used PowerTap wheel & bits for $150 a while ago. I could swap it to different bikes, but found I mainly used it on the trainer, or just for specific workouts on the road. Didn't find a need to have power on every bike.

For that price, even if it broke, I still had the wheel to use.
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Old 10-29-19, 09:25 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by jad3675 View Post
Self-install crank based Avios can be had for around $160 from various UK sellers. Avio states they only work with Shimano cranks, but with a bit of ingenuity I was able to mount one to my Campagnolo Potenza crank. It required disassembly of the Avio, and the application of heat to bend the case so that it followed the contour of the crank.

John
Thanks- Ill have to look into it more. I read about Avio before as it was the most affordable, but didnt want to buy a new crank or send mine overseas...i thought those were the only options. Obviously I didnt research it too much last time.

I would apply one to a Shimano HT crank and one to a Praxis Zayante crank, but all the other bikes are old cranks(from the 80s) that are almost certainly too thin to cover the meter. I could put a modern crank on one of those bikes, but ugh thats lame.
Anyways, this would take care of my gravel bike and perhaps my main road bike.

Time to do some reading!
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Old 10-29-19, 09:42 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by HarborBandS View Post
Is this a reference to the long-delayed IQ^2 power meter Kickstarter project?
There are a couple of different spd power meters supposedly in the works and, yes, the IQ2 is one of them.
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Old 10-29-19, 09:56 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post

Where an issue occurs is where certain parties start to forward the notion that the collection/analysis of data somehow threatens the Zen of cycling as a pursuit. The tacit suggestion that anyone who dares take cycling away from it's origins in purity is doing it wrong.
I'm pretty sure I'm one of the posters you're talking about, and I think you're writing in a "tacit suggestion" no one is making. Saying that this kind of monitoring violates my philosophy of riding and how I best enjoy it implies absolutely nothing about whether "anyone who dares" viewing it differently is wrong. I just feel a need to state to the OP that the notion that you can't learn to ride fast without one of those devices or any other specific training regimen is nonsense, and he/she shouldn't feel as if there's something wrong if they don't desire one.

These devices are tools, and if you find the tool useful to the type of riding you do, who the heck am I to question it? But I don't think it's bashing of anything or anyone for me to say I don't want one and don't need one for the kind of riding I do.

There's a bigger issue here, which is why I'm taking the chance of pushing back against a moderator--I'm a big believer that people need to find fitness regimens that suit their own needs, and that the biggest enemy of that is people convincing them that there's only one way to do things. If that one way doesn't work for them, then they're going to be thoroughly discouraged. A lot of this is psychological, some of us work better if we monitor and record lots of data, some of us find that turns it into an unpleasant chore to be avoided. Neither group is "wrong", they're only describing what's right for them. I try to be very careful to always say "this works for me" so people know there's an option out there they can think about and/or try that may not have occurred to them--it doesn't imply that they shouldn't try the other options, only that they shouldn't feel they have to because it's the only game in town.
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Old 10-29-19, 10:02 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by jad3675 View Post
Self-install crank based Avios can be had for around $160 from various UK sellers. Avio states they only work with Shimano cranks, but with a bit of ingenuity I was able to mount one to my Campagnolo Potenza crank. It required disassembly of the Avio, and the application of heat to bend the case so that it followed the contour of the crank.

John
Does this manufacturer have a response curve for the Campy crank or is there a calibration technique used with some sort of weight being hung from the pedal? Just physically fitting the crank is really a small part of the equation. They also need to have their calculation for the dimensions of the Campy crank and how much strain the crank arm sees under a given load at the spot it is mounted. Different height and width of the cross-section of the crank arm will change the reading that the meter sees.
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Old 10-29-19, 11:42 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I'm pretty sure I'm one of the posters you're talking about, and I think you're writing in a "tacit suggestion" no one is making. Saying that this kind of monitoring violates my philosophy of riding and how I best enjoy it implies absolutely nothing about whether "anyone who dares" viewing it differently is wrong. I just feel a need to state to the OP that the notion that you can't learn to ride fast without one of those devices or any other specific training regimen is nonsense, and he/she shouldn't feel as if there's something wrong if they don't desire one.

These devices are tools, and if you find the tool useful to the type of riding you do, who the heck am I to question it? But I don't think it's bashing of anything or anyone for me to say I don't want one and don't need one for the kind of riding I do.

There's a bigger issue here, which is why I'm taking the chance of pushing back against a moderator--I'm a big believer that people need to find fitness regimens that suit their own needs, and that the biggest enemy of that is people convincing them that there's only one way to do things. If that one way doesn't work for them, then they're going to be thoroughly discouraged. A lot of this is psychological, some of us work better if we monitor and record lots of data, some of us find that turns it into an unpleasant chore to be avoided. Neither group is "wrong", they're only describing what's right for them. I try to be very careful to always say "this works for me" so people know there's an option out there they can think about and/or try that may not have occurred to them--it doesn't imply that they shouldn't try the other options, only that they shouldn't feel they have to because it's the only game in town.
I agree, especially about the open-minded part - PM's work for some people, but not for others. I also think the whole racing thing is sort of besides the point. Power meters are for those who wish to have a more quantitative slant to their training or riding. I know plenty of PM users who don't race, and also plenty of racers who insist on not using power meters for various reasons. It all comes up to the individual and there is no one set of methodology that is best for everyone.
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Old 10-29-19, 03:47 PM
  #59  
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IMO, the number one reason to have power on the bike is to collect metrics that can be exported to remote third parties either instantaneously or post ride. I use 3rd party coaches to generate a training plan and provide feedback after my workouts. Having pedal force data in the form of torque or power provides a much better insight for the coach to make corrections to plans that support goals. And the coach can be remote versus with me at the time.

And there are the 3rd party software applications such as Zwift and Peloton that take advantage of instantaneous power metrics to enhance user experience.

I think it is more about goals and how to achieve the goals that determine the electronics, including power meters, that one selects.
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Old 10-29-19, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
IMO, the number one reason to have power on the bike is to collect metrics that can be exported to remote third parties either instantaneously or post ride. I use 3rd party coaches to generate a training plan and provide feedback after my workouts. Having pedal force data in the form of torque or power provides a much better insight for the coach to make corrections to plans that support goals. And the coach can be remote versus with me at the time.

And there are the 3rd party software applications such as Zwift and Peloton that take advantage of instantaneous power metrics to enhance user experience.

I think it is more about goals and how to achieve the goals that determine the electronics, including power meters, that one selects.
This is what I'm looking forward to. I want to ride outside during winter to some degree, but I will mostly be doing Zwift. I have my trainer ready...so having the power meter data will be great. Also, I'm a sucker for tech. It's probably dumb...but I do IT for a living, and being able to add tech to cycling to actually quantify/qualify my progress (or decline) will be amazing.
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Old 10-29-19, 04:15 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Caliper View Post
Does this manufacturer have a response curve for the Campy crank or is there a calibration technique used with some sort of weight being hung from the pedal? Just physically fitting the crank is really a small part of the equation. They also need to have their calculation for the dimensions of the Campy crank and how much strain the crank arm sees under a given load at the spot it is mounted. Different height and width of the cross-section of the crank arm will change the reading that the meter sees.
There's a calibration you perform with a 10KG weight hung off the pedal. I though the same thing, but it's a self-install PM with no guide to where on the crank you place it or even what type of adhesive you use - other they recommend a two-part epoxy. I thought I'd give it a try, after they said it would work on a Campag crank but I'd need to send it in to be fitted. I can mis-apply epoxy just as easily as they can.

John
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Old 10-29-19, 06:58 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by jad3675 View Post
Self-install crank based Avios can be had for around $160 from various UK sellers. Avio states they only work with Shimano cranks, but with a bit of ingenuity I was able to mount one to my Campagnolo Potenza crank. It required disassembly of the Avio, and the application of heat to bend the case so that it followed the contour of the crank.

John
I'm seeing prices that are $100 more than this, since the application products are sold separately from the power meter.
It's on the radar, but $260 per crank isnt in the cards right now.

Thanks again for the tip though as its something I'll track.

May need to search specific sites too, as google doesnt bring many up.
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Old 10-29-19, 07:09 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
I'm seeing prices that are $100 more than this, since the application products are sold separately from the power meter.
It's on the radar, but $260 per crank isnt in the cards right now.

Thanks again for the tip though as its something I'll track.

May need to search specific sites too, as google doesnt bring many up.
I got mine from probikekit - they had two versions listed, I got the cheaper one. Check out powermetershop.de - they had good pricing.

John
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Old 11-06-19, 10:09 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by jad3675 View Post
I got mine from probikekit - they had two versions listed, I got the cheaper one. Check out powermetershop.de - they had good pricing.

John
PBK has the Avio for Shimano 105 crank sensor for $188 - https://www.probikekit.com/cycling-p.../12180882.html - this is the unit I used on my Campagnolo crank. The device is not flat, it has a curve to it. Specs say it should fit most Shimano Cranks. It places the battery close to the crank. The other model places the battery at the pedal end.

GOLD12 coupon code will knock 12% of the price, too.
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Old 11-08-19, 04:52 PM
  #65  
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I bought a used Garmin single-pedal system off CL last summer to train for consistent power output for climbing. I wanted data in addition to HR to train with, rather than piling on junk miles. Then everything got derailed. Looking forward to starting over in the spring. If you’re curious, look for a used PM.
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Old 11-12-19, 11:38 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by jad3675 View Post
I got mine from probikekit - they had two versions listed, I got the cheaper one. Check out powermetershop.de - they had good pricing.

John
The Avio is on probikekit now for $188 before the cost of installation kit.

Question for you since you have home installed it- could it be temporarily installed on a crank using something like 3m releasable tape?
Thinking about using it for the winter on the trainer bike then attaching it to one of my road bikes come spring for outdoor use.

Wasnt sure if a thin layer like the releasable tape somehow messes with power readings?


If this is isnt possible, I will end up attaching the PM to a crank on one of my outdoor bikes, then moving that crank and bottom bracket to the trainer bike. Just hoping to reduce work.
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Old 11-12-19, 12:40 PM
  #67  
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If you are going down the Power Meter route I would recommend going with an accurate supported unit. An inaccurate or unreliable unit will serve little or no purpose. DC Rainmaker as mentioned earlier is the sports tech guru in this space and I would strongly recommend going with his recommendations.
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Old 11-13-19, 10:40 AM
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If you are looking for a cheap power meter option, I have a PowerTap PowerCal that if I remember correctly was around $100. While not considered a true (it uses an algorithm based on heartbeat) power meter. I have been using it for a couple of years and I like it. While definitely not as accurate as a true power meter it works well for what I do. When I do my usual rides the results are pretty consistent. Below is a quote from DC Rainmaker on it.

"PowerCal isn't marketed as a 100% accurate power meter. Nor as a tool for elite athletes (or any advanced athlete) to use as a hard core pacing device in a race or even day to day training. Instead, what it does offer is a low-cost method of getting a rough order of magnitude of your power level on a given ride."
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Old 11-13-19, 10:44 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by Prim8 View Post
If you are looking for a cheap power meter option, I have a PowerTap PowerCal that if I remember correctly was around $100. While not considered a true (it uses an algorithm based on heartbeat) power meter. I have been using it for a couple of years and I like it. While definitely not as accurate as a true power meter it works well for what I do.
How is that different from the guesstimate Garmin/Strava/MMR/RWGPS make based on weight, speed, and HR?
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Old 11-13-19, 10:57 AM
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A.) Why not?

B.) The best objective training metric.

C.) Power meters never lie.
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Old 11-13-19, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
How is that different from the guesstimate Garmin/Strava/MMR/RWGPS make based on weight, speed, and HR?
I have only used Garmin so I don't know about the others. I could be wrong, but I don't think that Garmin provides power stats via "guesstimate". I think it requires a sensor providing data.
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Old 11-13-19, 11:21 AM
  #72  
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Most of the guys I ride with have PMs. Most of them also tell me they don't do anything with the data. They just come out to ride with the group, just like me. I don't have one, but they are always sending me ads and specials about this and that, enticing me. If they were a lot cheaper than maybe I might consider it. I wouldn't do anything with the data either as I don't train; I just ride, and I am fast enough to keep up with the guys I ride with. I've no interest in training. I'm sure that if I were training that I'd get one. If I rode indoors I'd get one.
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Old 11-14-19, 12:14 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
You need a power meter if you want to objectively measure your efforts in a repeatable, precise manner. Less commonly, if you need to relate your efforts to some measure of speed.

If you're training seriously but not racing (and if someone has to ask "why" they'll never understand), it just depends on how precise you want that data to be.
How is that any better than speed / time? It does not measure the most important thing - winning. And it does not measure speed. Targeting power may not help either (and I am very serious about racing).

I have not seen the power training folks go faster than those that don't.

Cameron Wurf - 2X Kona record breaker - no PM
Taylor Phinney - no PM
(those are public with videos)

Many racers have them. Our current USA kids do too. USAC coaches get all excited about power too.

If you want to go faster, measuring speed is more results oriented.

Last edited by Doge; 11-14-19 at 12:20 AM.
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Old 11-14-19, 12:28 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
It does not measure the most important thing - winning.
The Eddy Merckx training method. How to prepare for smashing the hour record? Win a bunch of races!
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Old 11-14-19, 12:30 AM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
If you want to go faster, measuring speed is more results oriented.
Except that other that between the green and checkered flags, speed is a meaningless metric. I could draft a van all day and do a century at a 30mph average. Or I could just ride downhill. Or one day the wind is in my face and the other is at my back.

Speed is in not always indicative of effort. A power meter shows work done and ignores speed altogether. Anyone who has ever ridden up a hill knows it can take every bit as much work to climb a hill at 7mph as to cruise on flat ground at +20mph.

A power meter is one way to eliminate a lot of variables.
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