KraneXL

You counterpoint is childish and intransigent. More reminiscence of a middle school mentality. This discussion is terminated.

Is it always the cyclist that's wrong? Pretty strange coming from a cyclist website. It might interest you to know that it was cycling that are largely the cause of development of these alternate pathways.

In any event, since that seems to be the popular opinion here, maybe path for soccer moms and old people would be more appropriate than MUP? Then we're back to where we started with motorist complaining the bikes are too slow and should be on the sidewalk.

livedarklions

That's ridiculous. Words convey more meaning than a bell sound, it's idiotic to claim otherwise. As I've said numerous times when you've made this silly assertion before, I have seen plenty of riders have to resort to words when people didn't react to the bell sound, but I've never seen the reverse.

I have no problem with people preferring bells, but making a claim that it is recognized as conveying "passing on your left" better than saying "passing on your left" makes absolutely no sense.

livedarklions

Wow, just wow! If you really have a problem with sharing a MUP with "soccer moms and old people", then don't use MUPs. Basically, you just went completely into the offensive with this post.

It might interest you to know these paths would likely never have been funded if they hadn't been made multiple use. And yes, they are basically sidewalks you can ride on. If you don't like mixing bike and pedestrian traffic, these are not the places for you to ride.

MikeTé

Of course not.
However, on the MUPs, there are those who thread the needle between the little kids at 30-40 kph, the group rides at busy times that are too wide and too fast for the mixed traffic, etc.....
We've all seen it and we've all cringed at the close calls we've seen.

The e-bike riders, the e-boarders and even the slower crowd, the joggers and the walkers, also should try to be aware, patient and careful. They're just mostly not on this forum, though.
And, despite this being a cyclists' website, there are very few here who advocate, "It's all about me".

livedarklions

I'll go a little farther and say that bicyclists and ebike riders are well-aware that we are, by far, the fastest people on the paths, and that we pose a greater threat to other people's safety than the other MUP traffic. So any cyclist who is honest and knowledgeable about this should understand that we have a greater amount of responsibility to respect other people's safety. As far as I know, bikes must yield to pedestrians is a nearly universal MUP rule, and is statutory or mandated by ordinance.

I'm not saying pedestrians shouldn't watch out for their own safety, but cyclists have a legal responsibility to watch out for pedestrian safety as well. Pedestrians are not, however, legally required to get the hell out of our way on demand. I don't know of any law that requires them to do so, so it's pretty obvious we're relying on their courtesy. If you want to keep being able to ride on MUPs with reasonable efficiency, I suggest you don't systematically treat pedestrians in a rude and hostile manner.

indyfabz

I've seen plenty of signs informing users that bikes bust yield to peds and, in come cases, signs requiring both to yield to horses.

Phamilton

I mean, I’m an idiot, and whether I know that the sound of a bell means it’s attached to a bike that is about to pass me or not, it gets my attention. Bells get attention. Better than voices that may or may not be understood or clearly heard.

I’m an idiot, and I also ride a bike. I’m not the only bike riding idiot out there, and not on these forums.

So I don’t necessarily agree that idiots don’t know what to do when they hear a bell. Someone living in a cave maybe, but let’s not give idiots a bad name.

livedarklions

Thank you! I can say as a loud-mouthed idiot whose job entails a fair amount of public speaking that I do better talking loudly than I do making a ding ding noise. I recognize that that's going to vary a lot from person to person so that for a lot of people they're more likely to be heard and understood using a bell, but it really irritates me when someone claims that it's "common sense" that a sound conveys more information than actual words. I happen to be very good at making my words clearly heard without sounding like a crazy person., so it would be absurd for me to prefer using a bell.

BTW, I see people not knowing what to do when they hear a bell all the time on the Minuteman. I don't think there's that many cave dwellers there.

CSG

I do the same. Used to do the "on your left!" yell but a bell works better (although many seem to have earbuds in their ears and don't always hear you). But I'm a slower rider, more out for recreation, so I slow down when approaching. I have yet to have an issue over the years that stands out. But we're mostly polite in Idaho. I almost always say, "thank you" when I pass.

MikeTé

I will from now on cease to treat pedestrians in a rude and hostile manner.

livedarklions

Pretty sure you and I agree that some cyclists have not ceased doing so.

bbbean 

By "instantly and universally" I'll assume you mean by you and your friends. We all had bells back in the 70s and 80s, so when I got back into cycling a few years ago, I stuck a bell on my city/commuter bike out of habit. In my experience in Memphis and St. Louis, people hearing the bell and understanding how to react were a very small minority. Between people with headphones, people in conversations, people staring at cell phones, or people otherwise distracted, most people were too absorbed in their own thoughts to respond to anything I might do short of sounding a car horn.

indyfabz

Amen. I have a loud ass voice. People wearing buds don't hear me when I yell. I have had more than a few jump out of their skins when I pass. And age-related hearing loss usually begins with a decrease in the ability to hear high frequency sounds. And as you note, it's one thing to hear a bell. It's another to know how to react. Maybe someone can invent a bell that rings out "Please move to your right."

Phamilton

Loud-ass voice.

Loud ass voice is something few will hear and fewer will understand on the trail, and nobody will appreciate.

Biketiger

"I have no problem with people preferring bells, but making a claim that it is recognized as conveying "passing on your left" better than saying "passing on your left" makes absolutely no sense"

Until that rider in front of you MOVES TO THE LEFT. The last time that I happened to me I was passing a group of slow moving riders who were in my lane. One by one I said loudly, "On your left," as I moved past them. The third one swerved left and she was really surprised and confused when I swerved around her to avoid running into her. I've been using a bell ever since and I've never had anyone move to the left at the sound of my bell.
Also higher pitched sounds are more piercing than a voice. A lot of people wear earbuds and the bell will get their attention.
Finally, I realized I just don't like shouting at people.

GrainBrain

Marginal gains!

terrymorse 

Hi neighbor!


Coincidentally, I was on Stevens Creek Trail briefly today with my wife, checking out her bike fit after installing a new stem.

We passed a total of one other rider. Upright bike, no helmet, ear buds. We went around him safely and quietly, without incident or interaction.

Biketiger

[QUOTE=render ranger;21094115]Nah, my counterpoint is factual. Here's the "experiment" that you suggested. These are snippets from a single ride.

Bells are not universally understood nor instantly recognized, as you have falsely claimed.

This video has nothing to do with the merits of a bell vs voice. That's not the experiment we see here.
Instead we have a rider moving way too fast on a crowded trail. Slow down because you're in congested area or move to the dirt path where he would occasionally swerve to avoid hitting people or better yet, take a different trail.
You'd have the same result rushing up to people and shouting at them, "move over, move over!"

Biketiger

I read your post and watched the video - long enough to see you swerve to avoid hitting people. I don't know how you could describe your speed as slow when there were so many people you are trying to pass. I also noticed that there is no dividing line on the lane and people were all over the path.
Your comment about my "apparent limitations" speaks volumes about your lack of courtesy and common sense.

Al_in_NH

The two lovers walking their pooch on the rail trail tonight did not have a clue what a bell meant, but we were able to get around them safely. After we turned around and headed back, we came upon them again. Again, our bells had zero effect on them as they gazed lovingly into each others eyes while their mutt ran from one side of the rail trail to the other on his "leash".

Nothing works all the time.

alikitch

I can't fit a bell to my bike as it would adversely affect the aesthetics. Neither can I yell 'passing on the right' (which is the right side here) as, when peddling, there is not sufficient air pressure remaining in lungs to vibrate vocal folds.

I comfort myself with the knowledge that any pedestrian who is unhappy about this has around 1000km of footpath to choose from within a few metres of the bike lane, whereas the only alternative for non-suicidal cyclists is to get back in a car and drive. Of course this would add to our massive congestion and pollution problems - which is the reason they are building bike paths in the first place - to get people out of cars.

I am also comforted by the memories of the times I have managed to signal my approach and had pedestrians jump the wrong way. I would rather they got a fright and jumped in a random direction after I had passed than got a fright at the sound of a bell and jumped in a random direction in front of me for both our sakes.

Biketiger

Ranger, you are quick to point out what you perceive as others' "limitations" or "ludicrous ideas."
Your latest post being your conclusion about me "not being able to ride at slow or moderate speeds around pedestrians"
You have no idea who I am or what I ride. I ride fixed gear and can steer circles around you.
Now on your path, did you notice that of the dozens of people on that trail, every single one was a PEDESTRIAN?
Ain't no one on their bike but you Ranger. No runners, no bladers, no scooters.
The point about speed you fail to grasp is that everyone else was moving much at a much slower pace than you.
You think you are so in control but at any point, any one of those kids could have stepped in front of you.
Who do you think would be at fault? You had to swerve to avoid hitting one of them.

Here is an idea: Since you were riding on the dirt, why not ride on the dirt until you pass the whole lot of them?
Then you could post a video from your go pro on bikeforums showing us how fast and strong you are.

Phamilton

Very nice!

indyfabz

The real question is: Does anyone still curtsey on bike paths?

mjd420nova

It has come to my attention that few if any will call out to another rider when passing. My encounter seems to be with the runners and walkers that wear headphones and wouldn't hear a tornado behind them so calling out is useless. Some ares require you to call out when passing but they must also require no headphones or we'd just be wasting out breath.