apricissimus 

So tell me, what do you get out of ranting on an internet forum?

Fast Cloud

Nothing more than to look at a lame picture of John Wayne a lot.

cooker

I keep intending to carry a few golf balls.

apricissimus 

Respect the Duke!

Fast Cloud

I humbly bow to his Dukeness.

AlmostTrick

I don't hate motorists. Oh, except the guy who threw a plastic beer cup at me yesterday, and the guy who yelled out his window at me this morning. Both were going the opposite direction. I didn't give them the slightest response or acknowledgement. As far as they could tell, I didn't even notice. Haha on them. Losers.

Just a slight hunch... Does Fast Cloud = Pete Flagerlin (sp)? Your attitude towards cyclists being in your way seems to be about the same.

Juha

Are you suggesting that a MUP must be crowded before it qualifies as a well planned piece of infrastructure?

For any single MUP I guess I could argue it doesn't serve a purpose, if only few people use it. On a broader scale, I think I would fail with that argument. Lack of crowds shows the network as a whole has enough capacity for its intended users (and a reasonable overhead for future expansion), and routing serves people's needs as not everyone is going back and forth along the same MUP.

Streets intersect repeatedly with each other, but somehow that's not inconvenient? MUPs can avoid some of those intersections where space allows, but even where that's not possible, I don't see they're any worse than intersecting streets. Again, if they're planned properly.

--J

Daily Commute

One problem is that MUP's in the US pretty much never have the right of way when they intersect with roads. When I'm on a main road, I have the right of way more often than not, so I can legally and safely breeze past streets. On an MUP, you have to stop at each and every intersection, which adds a lot of time to a commute. This is especially true of sidepaths--special physically segregated MUP's that run parallel to roads. These are OK if the road doesn't have intersections or driveways, but a real pain if you have to stop at nearly every intersection and wait for a light or for a gap in traffic. If the side path had equal priority as the road it ran next to (with turns from that road prohibited or required to yield to the MUP), they would be less bad.

Another problem is that American MUP's are just that, multi-use paths. They attract unskilled cyclists who are clueless around cars, as well as walkers and joggers, too many of whom isolate themselves from the world with iPods.

All that said, I sometimes take an MUP to work. It's OK because it runs along a river and rarely crosses a road at road level. It's great when the weather is bad because the ratio of competent users to idiots is high. Generally, only the most skilled and dedicated runners are out when it's 30 degrees (F) and cloudy. I avoid it like the plague on nice afternoons because too many clueless idiots (including clueless idiot cyclists) are using it.

chipcom 

I'm far from type A and I don't hate motorists - I am a motorist as well as a cyclist.
What I hate are wannabe tough-guy windbags that ain't got the patience God gave a starving dawg who take out their own insecurities and suck-ass lives on people who 'get in their way' of getting home in time to watch Faux News.

TeleJohn

dis one time dis guy yelled at me from car!


ooooooooooooohhh! i get soooo mad!

Juha

Thanks for clarification, that certainly explains a lot. Around here, obligation to yield generally means you have to yield to MUP traffic as well. There are exceptions, but that's the basic idea.

--J

genec

Yeah, I noticed that when I was in Oulu... and as an American cyclist I was quite surprised by that situation.

I was actually honked at by an Oulu driver when I stopped where the path intersected the road. The driver stopped for me and would not go until I crossed first.

Cyclists are treated differently in other parts of the world! They are sometimes treated quite well.

genec

Of course you are talking about the average "park type" MUP. There are MUP designs that go above or below the road grade (like our freeway system) and thus there is no true intersections, but there are ramps to meet the road where one needs to leave the path. Those rare MUPs are wide and fast and offer a true "bicycle freeway" experience for cyclists.

Too bad that with the vast freeway design experience that US road engineers have, there are so few of these types of paths.

UnsafeAlpine

Boulder, CO is a great example of this. It has very few intersections. The MUP goes under the road with entrance and exit ramps at nearly every street. Most of them are lightly used so they're actually convenient.

cooker

Even one dog leash incident could put you in the hospital. I like the predictability of cars. I ride in a straight line, stay out of the doorzone, and don't pass on the right approaching intersections, and I find it much more relaxing than riding on a MUP.

Not only are those stops where MUPs intersect streets more frequent and inconvenient than riding on a road, where you may have the right of way at at least some intersections, they are also much more dangerous, because motorists are more likely to miss them and barrel through than at a conventional intersection of streets.

I used to have a line under my avatar that said "Don't wave me through". Motorists who do that are not doing you a favour, they are setting you up to be creamed by the car in the next lane, or by the car that isn't so accomodating the next time you cross at that spot, and maybe assume traffic will stop for you.

That would be great, and perhaps more of those will be built along suburban and rural roads, but it is highly unlikely we will retrofit our older urban areas with that kind of luxury.

Juha

I believe genec was describing his experience over here, where the right of way code (or rather, we call it obligation to yield) is different. A motorist doing that here is being prudent and predictable, doing what the law says he should do, all that. I agree, it's not a favor, just doing what they're supposed to do in that situation, by our laws.

Your MUPs obviously differ vastly from what we have here, also and especially in terms of applicable laws. Best leave it at that.

--J

cooker

Fair enough.

genec

No, this was in another country... where the drivers are trained to give way to cyclists, in fact, the laws there are dramatically different from those in the US.

This was in Oulu Finland and motorists are held responsible for collisions to "vulnerable road users," unless proven otherwise by an investigation. Very much unlike the US where motorists often are given carte blanche by our "justice system."

genec

Yes, that is correct, I was refering to my experiences in Oulu... where the cycling was simply delightful.

It is hard for American cyclists to even begin to comprehend that such a system could even exist. I thought I was in cycling heaven. The pathways were fantastic and overall I was very very much impressed.

Nice people too. Now if it were just not so cold...

Interestly I just read a report on Yahoo that Finland as a nation has some of the happiest people in the world. I can believe it.

Juha

This thread has been an eye opener for me. The fact that bikes are treated differently depending on whether they're on the street or taking a MUP along the street pretty much changes everything. My original question (why MUPs are considered automatically inferior) has been answered with that. I have to say I wouldn't advocate MUPs on a large scale with that kind of legislation either.

We have one particular glitch in our own legislation on this same issue but nothing as drastic. It's been my pet peeve since that part of legislation was passed, but I guess we're doing OK after all. Generally my rights and obligations are the same on the street and on a MUP.

One long-standing issue has been construction work on MUPs. It seems we're slowly, slowly getting to a point where it is taken seriously. Someone actually considers alternative routes and posts directions, construction sites have more and better traffic signs and also info on what's going on and how long it's estimated to take. And, after the work is done, the MUP is sealed fairly quickly. You know, the kind of stuff that's taken for granted on any road / street construction site.

--J