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Wheelchairs in the bike lane?

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Wheelchairs in the bike lane?

Old 05-14-09, 07:19 AM
  #51  
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Apparently my perspective is a bit different than some here. Below is a shot of one of my wife’s rigs, her other is an electric one. Spend some time in one and your perspective may change, just like a car drivers may change when they spend time on a bicycle. For one, just try to navigate sidewalks on one. Often times no curb cuts, way to often cars pulled into driveways completely blocking sidewalks, trash cans setting on the sidewalks and on and on. We have a number of folks in Santa Cruz who fly all over town in electric chairs at a darn good clip, too fast for a sidewalk, and they have never presented a problem for me.

I’m no longer surprised by just how intolerant each segment of our society has become.


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Old 05-14-09, 12:57 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Ajenkins
People in wheelchairs are rightfully classified as pedestrians. If people in wheelchairs cannot use the sidewalks due to disrepair, the correct response is to REPAIR THE SIDEWALKS, not to put wheelchairs in the street.
You are distorting the debate. In the real world where compromise must occur, things are not magically fixed the second they are broken. The people advocating wheelchair access to bicycle lanes want access while the sidewalk is not usable.

The debate is not whether or not the sidewalk should be repaired, it is what should those in wheelchairs do when they come across a sidewalk that is not navigable. You apparently want them to turn around and go home until it is fixed.

From the article :
"Devereaux said he wants the right to use bike lanes based on his appraisal of a sidewalk and whether it is usable.

The decision shouldn't be left to the discretion of a police officer who is authorized to ticket violators of the law, he said."

Sound familiar? If not, substitute "roads" for "bike lanes" and "bike lane" for "sidewalk"
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Old 05-14-09, 01:23 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by buzzman

BUT if I start seeing Segways, roller bladers, joggers etc in bike lanes then it becomes another issue.
I often see joggers in bike lanes, running against traffic. Even where there is a sidewalk in good repair right next to them. They don't mind displacing me into traffic so that I can go past them.

I would not object to wheelchairs in bike lanes, as long as they were devices with electric (not gas) motors and not capable of going faster than 25mph on flat ground. I would prefer if they were going with the traffic direction, and had visibility gear (blinky, triangle, etc). It would be wise for a wheelchair user who regularly used a bike lane to have a mirror to assist in their situational awareness.

I remember a case of a woman who used a wheelchair who lived in a neighborhood with sidewalks in horrible disrepair from a few years ago. She was arrested for child endangerment for having one of her children on her lap in the chair, while traveling in the road. I don't recall whether this was a manual or power wheelchair, or whether she had lights.

The situation of passengers with the wheelchair operator, in a bike lane, could be quite dangerous.

I know that motorized wheelchairs and those electric motor mobility scooters are not allowed on some of the MUPs where I live, like the American Tobacco Trail. No motorized vehicles are allowed.
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Old 05-14-09, 01:31 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by apricissimus
I wouldn't mind it. People in wheel chairs have a pretty hard time getting around, so I don't mind giving them a break.
I wouldn't either, but I haven't come across this situation yet. I'd hope they'd be going with the flow of traffic if they were in the same lane I'm in, and bet they'd be easier to maneuver around than the average Mom/stroller combo.
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Old 05-14-09, 07:51 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by con
I’m no longer surprised by just how intolerant each segment of our society has become.
Only in the narrow minded world of the AnS forum would a debate rage about handicap people using a bike lane.

I pity most of you.
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Old 05-14-09, 10:28 PM
  #56  
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I'd only be upset if I allowed myself to be passed by a wheelchair operator!
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Old 05-15-09, 07:25 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick
I'd only be upset if I allowed myself to be passed by a wheelchair operator!


The new modern "high performance" chairs are really pretty darn fast. It is fun to watch the couple of folks in my town fly around unencumbered in the bike lanes. you can tell they have rejoined society, a society that really requires independent mobility to be a part of.

There is even a place in the next town south that "hops" up the chairs for more speed! How cool is that.

I remember almost 30 years ago thanking Phil Wood, not in person, for making great hubs for my tandem for he was known for his wheel chair products That was a fun time, before my wife developed MS. She was an ex-speed skater with thighs like Beth Hyden, no other male/female tandem couple could stay with the two of us
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Old 05-15-09, 04:51 PM
  #58  
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Let em have the bike lanes - lord knows they aren't wide enough here for cyclists.
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Old 05-15-09, 07:30 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by fetad
You are distorting the debate.

Pfft. I'm not distorting anything. I merely suggested that if something is broken, we ought to fix it; apparently a fairly radical notion in a throwaway society.
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Old 05-15-09, 09:55 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Ajenkins
Pfft. I'm not distorting anything. I merely suggested that if something is broken, we ought to fix it; apparently a fairly radical notion in a throwaway society.
I got it now, your solution for those in wheelchairs is too carry this just in case. Pave their way.



Seriously, I don't see how your suggestion helps anyone in a wheelchair when they approach a sidewalk that isn't traversable. I thought it was obvious that the debate lies in that chunk of time between the appearance of the obstacle and the removal of the obstacle.

It's not just broken sidewalks. A fallen tree from a storm or the more frequent 'parked car' are all it takes for someone in a wheelchair to be SOL.
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Old 05-15-09, 11:53 PM
  #61  
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Wow, just wow, and we wonder why folks see cyclists as whiny, elitist, a - holes?
So now were so precious and special we can't share a bike lane with someone in a wheelchair? The folks that are bent about this are the same ones who yell at little kids to hold their line on the MUP.
Apparently folks have forgot about the basics of road usage and the idea of yielding to slower and less maneuverable users, like children, the elderly, and the DISABLED! We all end up slower and less maneuverable over time so you might want to think about how you'd like to be treated the when you inevitably become the one "inconveniencing" everyone in the bike lane.

PS: Wheelchair makers seem to be the only ones still making really nice radially laced wheels.
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Old 05-16-09, 12:29 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Treespeed
We all end up slower and less maneuverable over time so you might want to think about how you'd like to be treated the when you inevitably become the one "inconveniencing" everyone in the bike lane.
Humbling, sad, and true...
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Old 05-16-09, 03:37 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Mr Danw
I have no problem with it as long as the user has lights, proper vehicle licensing, safety flags and a helmet.

Originally Posted by UnsafeAlpine
Why should they need that stuff when we don't?
I agree as to lights when other vehicles (including bikes) need lights, but any penalties should be so small as to be mostly symbolic. I'd rather see the town give away $10 white and red blinkies to violators than issue tickets. I'd agree as to safety flags if there were real evidence that safety flags made using a wheelchair in traffic safer. Flags would be cheap and easy for wheelchair users to install. But since I haven't seen any such evidence, I would not support that. Licensing is just silly.
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Old 05-16-09, 05:32 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by fetad
I thought it was obvious that the debate lies in that chunk of time between the appearance of the obstacle and the removal of the obstacle.

It's not just broken sidewalks. A fallen tree from a storm or the more frequent 'parked car' are all it takes for someone in a wheelchair to be SOL.
Well, that does change things. Heck, if the sidewalk is blocked in that manner, take the cycle lane, take the whole doggone street, I don't care. I thought the debate was over permanent usage.

But it should not absolve the local government from properly maintaining the transportation infrastructure for all users so that they may use the appropriate portion of it.
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Old 05-16-09, 04:06 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Ajenkins
Well, that does change things. Heck, if the sidewalk is blocked in that manner, take the cycle lane, take the whole doggone street, I don't care. I thought the debate was over permanent usage.
I think the issue is that wheelchair users don't want to have to explain why they were in the bike lane. For instance, imagine that you used a particular sidewalk and 25% of the time, you had to backtrack half a block because someone blocked the sidewalk with their car. If you started using the bike lane/street all the time to avoid that hassle, would you be upset if you were ticketed on a day when the sidewalk was clear? I would be.

It's a lot like the "far right as practicable" laws for cyclists. I wish they would go away (be changed to the standard slow moving vehicle law) because I don't feel like having to explain how often the far right of the road doesn't meet my needs for travel just because someone thinks it could on that particular day.
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Old 05-18-09, 04:22 PM
  #66  
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In my county, cyclists have the right to take the sidewalk if it is too dangerous to ride in the street. For example, if there was glass in the road or you are moving very slowly, way below the speed limit, it is legal to ride on the sidewalk (with conditions, such as limiting your speed and not cycling in an erratic manner). I don't see why the same type of law couldn't be applied to bike lanes for people who use wheelchairs. Any time a pedestrian walkway or sidewalk is dangerous for a wheelchair user (or impassable) to traverse, they should have the legal right to take the bike lane (or street) when necessary. I also agree with other posters that the bigger issue is the city's lack of regard for wheelchair users as evidenced by our often ignored sidewalks that are all torn up, and that the larger issue aught to be addressed in force. However, no matter how much advocacy and repair is conducted, there will ALWAYS be rough patches and potholes and sidewalks with glass and crap on it, which is really what I think the guy from the article is talking about.
I think anyone but the saddest human being wouldn't have an issue with someone in a wheelchair taking a bike lane because a sidewalk is all torn up, and I'd be a little surprised if a LEO was to cite a person using a wheelchair for taking a bike lane during a stretch of impassable road, regardless of whether it's legal or not.....but then again, I've heard of worse, so you never know.
Basic rules should apply of course: must be going with the flow of traffic (I almost ate it big time and possibly wound up in a wheelchair myself when I hit a blind turn in my bike lane and almost slammed into some *****hole pushing a scooter up the path, against traffic, in my lane. I most certainly would have nailed the person if they were in a boxy wheelchair), must have a reflector, must obey all traffic laws, etc. Those are just basic safety issues that everyone should follow (in particular, going with the flow of traffic).
In short: Wheelchair users should have the right to take the bike lane when the road is impassable or unsafe, so long as they are required to follow the basic safety laws that will keep everyone who uses the bike lane in one piece. This shouldn't necessarily have to be turned into a law though, I woudl haev expected it to be basic human decency and common sense. What do you anti-wheelchair-in-bike-lane folks expect someone in a wheelchair to do when they come across an impassable terrain? Cry? Sit there all day just staring at the road? I don't get some folks.....
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Old 05-18-09, 07:14 PM
  #67  
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What I don't understand is why it's "sidewalks vs. bike lanes" and not "sidewalks vs. roadway". Surely there are plenty of very bad sidewalks that run alongside roads lacking bike lanes, yet no mention is made of permitting the wheelchairs to go onto the road when they see fit. Is it because cyclists are seen as easy to push around, while encroaching onto the sacred lands of the Automobile is completely unthinkable? THAT's what bothers me about the proposition, not sharing the lane with a disabled person in a wheelchair.

Now, a second consideration is that many people in wheelchairs are not actually disabled. Most people I see in those motorized wheelchair-type scooters seem to be just lazy fat bums who don't want to put in the effort that walking or biking would require. How do I know? By seeing them get off their little machines and walk around just fine when they choose to do so, with no coordination or balance issues of any sort, no visible limp, no stiffness that would suggest pain. Anyway, I don't care if they are lazy or fat - it's truly none of my business - but I am not sure if these people should be entitled to the same rights and priviliges as those who really need the wheelchair to get around. As others pointed out, it's not necessarily a bad thing when Segways, electric scooters etc. take to the road; however, it is a different issue, and I think that in discussing this case it's important to differentiate between the disabled folk and the "joy riders", since their needs and entitlements are quite different.

In fact, I wonder if some of the privileges that wheelchair users have (e.g., riding on the sidewalk) should only extend to those who truly need it. Because some of these motorized wheelchair folks who zip around just for fun are a real menace to pedestrians, and expect to be given ROW as they blast along the sidewalk at 15-20 mph. There is no way you should get away with driving a motorized vehicle at such a speed on a sidewalk... yet if it looks like a wheelchair, it's suddenly okay.
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Old 05-18-09, 09:11 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by chephy
Now, a second consideration is that many people in wheelchairs are not actually disabled. Most people I see in those motorized wheelchair-type scooters seem to be just lazy fat bums who don't want to put in the effort that walking or biking would require. How do I know? By seeing them get off their little machines and walk around just fine when they choose to do so, with no coordination or balance issues of any sort, no visible limp, no stiffness that would suggest pain. Anyway, I don't care if they are lazy or fat - it's truly none of my business - but I am not sure if these people should be entitled to the same rights and priviliges as those who really need the wheelchair to get around. As others pointed out, it's not necessarily a bad thing when Segways, electric scooters etc. take to the road; however, it is a different issue, and I think that in discussing this case it's important to differentiate between the disabled folk and the "joy riders", since their needs and entitlements are quite different.
Ahem...

I must take issue with this. It is not always readily apparent when someone has a real disability. Just because someone can move around for short distances doesn't mean they don't need an aid for longer distances. They may be in some pain or discomfort, and just because it's not apparent to you, that doesn't mean it's not there.

You know what happens when you assume, right?
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Old 05-19-09, 03:04 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by apricissimus
Ahem...

I must take issue with this. It is not always readily apparent when someone has a real disability. Just because someone can move around for short distances doesn't mean they don't need an aid for longer distances. They may be in some pain or discomfort, and just because it's not apparent to you, that doesn't mean it's not there.
. . . .
The person could also have heart or lung problems that make it dangerous to do even moderate exercise. That said, Cephy is right that a few people probably use a chair who don't need it. People in wheelchairs are human, too. But I'll give every person in a wheelchair the benefit of any doubt because I'd rather give undeserved deference every now and than get in the way of the many who need it.

Cephy is also right that sometimes bad choices led people into wheelchairs. As cyclists, lack of exercise is generally not generally our sin of choice, but we've all made stupid choices that could have left us scooting around in a wheelchair instead of riding a bike. I'll count myself as lucky to be the one who gets to yield to people in wheelchairs.

As to the bike lane law debate, wheelchair users should be allowed the use of the bike lane at their discretion, but we cyclists should also be allowed to leave the bike lane at our discretion. If such a proposal were made here, I would seek to amend it to eliminate any mandatory bike lane law and to modify the far-right rule to expressly say that cyclists don't have to use bike lanes. If my suggestion couldn't get through, then I'd still support the wheelchair law. Again, if I'm slowed by a person in a wheelchair, it will just remind me how lucky I am.
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Old 05-19-09, 07:42 AM
  #70  
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Very ironic how some cyclists seem to have the same sense of selfish entitlement and superiority that we complain about in motorists.

The public roadways are not for cars, not for bicycles, not for horse-drawn carriages, not for wheelchairs. The public roadways are for people, no matter what their means of mobility is.
 
Old 05-19-09, 07:49 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by chephy
Now, a second consideration is that many people in wheelchairs are not actually disabled. Most people I see in those motorized wheelchair-type scooters seem to be just lazy fat bums who don't want to put in the effort that walking or biking would require.
OMG.....Ignorance, combined with intolerance is truly frighting; Heaven help us.
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Old 05-19-09, 08:02 AM
  #72  
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In Holland, the bike lanes are shared with wheelchairs, hand-crank trikes, mobility scooters and countless other mobility aid inventions. I have a problem with none of them.
You use your eyes.
You see someone in front of you.
You pass when safe.
It's not like the lanes are suddenly going to become gridlocked with wheelchairs.
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Old 05-19-09, 10:25 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by chephy
Now, a second consideration is that many people in wheelchairs are not actually disabled.
Yeah, like George Costanza when he was playing fake handicapped for his job. He rode a mobile scooter and even got chased down the sidewalk by the old folks.
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Old 05-19-09, 02:05 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by CB HI
Where do we draw the line?
Is a hand cycle a wheelchair or a bike?
Is a recumbent a wheelchair or a bike?
Is an adult tricycle with chair style seat a wheelchair or a bike?
Is a wheelchair racer https://howtoadapt.com/RacingWheelchair/1.jpg , a wheelchair or a bike?

I would side with, letting the operator decide.
But in this case it is a motorized wheelchair. Seems to me all your examples are human powered wheeled devices. That gives a dividing line, power source. If we allow powered then is a moped ok? A scooter? A rice rocket? A Harley?
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Old 05-19-09, 02:13 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by Keith99
But in this case it is a motorized wheelchair. Seems to me all your examples are human powered wheeled devices. That gives a dividing line, power source. If we allow powered then is a moped ok? A scooter? A rice rocket? A Harley?
Is a motorized bicycle that will only go 20 mph, OK to be in the bike lane?

PS: The only problem I have had in the past with a Harley rider in the bike lane was; that he wanted me to move out of his way at a red light rather than waiting his turn behind me in the que.

Double PS: In Hawaii, both bicycles and mopeds are required to use the bike lane.

Last edited by CB HI; 05-19-09 at 02:42 PM.
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