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Old 11-27-12, 09:45 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by LowCel
I'm pretty sure if that were true we would be seeing some flat bars in the pro peloton.

I guess that if your aero bars are the same height and width as the flats on my road bike there would be no difference in that one position. However, when in that position I am much less aero than in the hoods or the drops.
I think I've read there's rules against them, could be wrong though!
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Old 11-27-12, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by jbchybridrider
I think I've read there's rules against them, could be wrong though!
Very well could be. I'm sure that none of them are interested in fighting that rule though.

If you need proof of aerodynamics it's easy. On a windy day ride a mile into the headwind on the flats of a road bike. After that ride a mile in the drops.
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Old 11-27-12, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Violet
Has it been proving that flat bars are inherently less aero? At the same height, and the same width.

Doubt it - if anything it's easier to crouch down with palms facing down.
The vast majority is the rider's position, so if you can get the same position with flat bars, you could be essentially as aero.

However, you've got several limitations. One you can't get as low with the flat bars without some contortions because even a negative 17 degree stem is not going below the top of the head tube ( where road bars have additional drop, from the "drop bars" hence the name.)

Additionally, trying to hold a tuck with hands in narrow on road bars doesn't work very well. First, it ends up being too jammed with the stem otherwise set for an appropriate reach, and second it's just not as easy or comfortable to maintain that posture for an extended period, as it is to ridein the drops.

On various occassions where I've rented MTB's out of necessity, I've ridden on the road with hands in elbows tucked, or invisable aerobars, to be faster on the road. It works, but it's far from ideal.

As stated before there's a reason people race with drop bars.
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Old 11-27-12, 09:57 AM
  #29  
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Old 11-27-12, 10:49 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by jbchybridrider
I think I've read there's rules against them, could be wrong though!
UCI rules would prohibit flat bars in a mass start road race because they require use of handlebars traditional to the discipline.

UCI rules don't apply to most racing in the US however.

USA Cycling rules don't appear to prohibit flat bars. The ends need to be plugged, there cannot be a forward extension or and elbow rest. Other than that, there does not appear in a quick review any rule against flat bars.

That said, I could have overlooked something, and I wouldn't bet that the USA cycling ref won't pull you at the start of your local crit.
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Old 11-27-12, 11:24 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Anyone can put together a combination grossly inappropriate for the task at hand, and make himself unique because no one else is stupid enough to choose the completely wrong tool.
I have a flat bar road bike and a drop bar road bike as well. I can tell you first hand that the differences in aero-dynamics for the average rider is negligible. If anything the flat bar climbs better due to the increased leverage of a wider bar and bar extensions.

As its been said many times in this forum... its the rider not the bike.
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Old 11-27-12, 11:31 AM
  #32  
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my old Trek (posted earlier) is a retired training bike, that was hanging on a hook unused for two years. I have three other road bikes with drop bars, so flat-barring the Trek (flat pedals too) made sense, because now I ride it. It's great for errands, and riding to work. Don't care if anyone looks at it and asks themselves "why?". It's a fun and useful bike.
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Old 11-27-12, 11:35 AM
  #33  
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Old 11-27-12, 11:51 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by mynameistaken
I have a flat bar road bike and a drop bar road bike as well. I can tell you first hand that the differences in aero-dynamics for the average rider is negligible. If anything the flat bar climbs better due to the increased leverage of a wider bar and bar extensions.

As its been said many times in this forum... its the rider not the bike.
Well I can tell you from calculations from actual data that the difference is about 1.8mph for an average rider.

Go to Kreuzotter, https://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm, use the default weight, height and power output (160 watts). Hold the tires, and bicycle weight constant, and the difference comes out to 1.8mph.

There's a reason that people that are trying to go fast on bicycles do it with drop bars ( aero bars in certain circumstances) and not with flat bars.

And the comment which you cherry picked is in the context of a high end racing frame with deep sectioned carbon wheels with flat bars being used to race.
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Old 11-27-12, 12:16 PM
  #35  
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It's got nuffin to do with aero. You could get 'flat' bars as low as your drops if you really worked at it...they're called pursuit bars generally.

It's about choice. A truly aero position is not sustainable for long periods of time, by anyone no matter how fit. That's why even the pros spin along on the hoods generally.

If your bar doesn't give you any choice, you're locked into a single compromised position, or two at best (bar ends). Many folks don't care about that, and that's fine. That doesn't make it any less of a disadvantage though. Some guys tour with those crazy 'butterfly' or 'trekking' bars, they probably work great. It's all about flexibility of choice.
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Old 11-27-12, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Well I can tell you from calculations from actual data that the difference is about 1.8mph for an average rider.

Go to Kreuzotter, https://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm, use the default weight, height and power output (160 watts). Hold the tires, and bicycle weight constant, and the difference comes out to 1.8mph.

There's a reason that people that are trying to go fast on bicycles do it with drop bars ( aero bars in certain circumstances) and not with flat bars.

And the comment which you cherry picked is in the context of a high end racing frame with deep sectioned carbon wheels with flat bars being used to race.
It depends on how you set your flat bar up.

The comment was cherry picked due to its trollish content.
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Old 11-27-12, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mynameistaken

The comment was cherry picked due to its trollish content.
The only arguably trollish thing about my comment is that I responded to a troll.


You have to read what I said in context.

First, this thread started in the Road Forum, not the hybrid forum.

Second, the discussion related to how it was stupid to race with flat bars on a road racing frame with deep sectioned wheels.

The comment you chose to highlight was in response to the post to the effect that at least your not a sheep.

Are you honestly taking the position that it makes sense to take a $3000 carbon frame, put Zipp 404's on it, then put flat bars on it, for the specific purpose of racing said bike?

Or are you just trying to be argumentative?

I stand by my position that it's stupid to put flat bars on a bike in that context, just for the the purpose of avoiding "being a sheep"

I can't imagine any reasonable person would take significant issue with that.
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Old 11-27-12, 01:08 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
The only arguably trollish thing about my comment is that I responded to a troll.


You have to read what I said in context.

First, this thread started in the Road Forum, not the hybrid forum.
- the title was "flat bar road bikes" not flat bar hybrid bikes.

Second, the discussion related to how it was stupid to race with flat bars on a road racing frame with deep sectioned wheels.
- i am curious as to where those pics were taken and what type of race it was. Maybe it was a super technical crit where the wide bars would have been an advantage.

The comment you chose to highlight was in response to the post to the effect that at least your not a sheep.
- Yes the OP was being a little defensive due to all of the negative posts

Are you honestly taking the position that it makes sense to take a $3000 carbon frame, put Zipp 404's on it, then put flat bars on it, for the specific purpose of racing said bike? - For a typical professional road race, no.

Or are you just trying to be argumentative?
- I have a flat bar road bike which I will post in this thread after work. Why are you posting in this thread?

I stand by my position that it's stupid to put flat bars on a bike in that context, just for the the purpose of avoiding "being a sheep"
- you live in flat as a pancake Florida. An argument could be made that you should ride a tri bike with aero bars and anything else would be stupid.

I can't imagine any reasonable person would take significant issue with that.

- You are certainly entitled to your opinion and maybe you should start a flat bar road bike bashing thread. This is a post a pic thread

see above
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Old 11-27-12, 01:30 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by mynameistaken
- i am curious as to where those pics were taken and what type of race it was. Maybe it was a super technical crit where the wide bars would have been an advantage.
You've never raced a crit have you? You want to be in the drops 95% of the time in a crit. In the drops allows you to corner better with a lower center of gravity. No way there's an advantage to riding those bikes with that setup in a crit.

Originally Posted by mynameistaken
The comment you chose to highlight was in response to the post to the effect that at least your not a sheep.
- Yes the OP was being a little defensive due to all of the negative posts
Not hanging out in the road forum, I think the whole thread went right over your head. The OP was purposefully trolling. There are recurrent pictures of flat bar bikes with high end racing frames and wheels that get ridiculed. He was stirring the pot on a slow day.

Originally Posted by mynameistaken
- Are you honestly taking the position that it makes sense to take a $3000 carbon frame, put Zipp 404's on it, then put flat bars on it, for the specific purpose of racing said bike? - For a typical professional road race, no.
Given that you agree with the point I was making, I don't see why you continue to take issue.
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Old 11-27-12, 01:57 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
You've never raced a crit have you? You want to be in the drops 95% of the time in a crit. In the drops allows you to corner better with a lower center of gravity. No way there's an advantage to riding those bikes with that setup in a crit.



Not hanging out in the road forum, I think the whole thread went right over your head. The OP was purposefully trolling. There are recurrent pictures of flat bar bikes with high end racing frames and wheels that get ridiculed. He was stirring the pot on a slow day.



Given that you agree with the point I was making, I don't see why you continue to take issue.
OK - so what is it that REALLY bugs you? The fact that some people refer to them 'flat bar road bikes'minstead of 'performance hybrids'? A few companies produced and marketed stock machines like that. They were - quite literally - road bikes with flat bars.
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Old 11-27-12, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Burton
OK - so what is it that REALLY bugs you? The fact that some people refer to them 'flat bar road bikes'minstead of 'performance hybrids'? A few companies produced and marketed stock machines like that. They were - quite literally - road bikes with flat bars.
No manufacturer built stock bikes like that. Those bikes were purposefully put together frame up to be that stupid. Giovanni Pinarello would be rolling over in his grave if he saw this thread. I hope no one shows it to him because he might not be able to take the shock, at his age.

You want to ride a bike with flat bars, fine.

Just don't try to argue that a high end CF road racing frame, with $2500 deep sectioned carbon fiber rims, used to race , with flat bars makes any possible sense.
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Old 11-27-12, 02:39 PM
  #42  
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Trolls don't ask moderators to move their threads.

It seems to me that all of these bikes were converted to a flat bar configuration temporarily. All of them have a ton of excess steer tube which leads me to believe they will go back to drop bars after that race.

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Old 11-27-12, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
No manufacturer built stock bikes like that. Those bikes were purposefully put together frame up to be that stupid. Giovanni Pinarello would be rolling over in his grave if he saw this thread. I hope no one shows it to him because he might not be able to take the shock, at his age.

You want to ride a bike with flat bars, fine.

Just don't try to argue that a high end CF road racing frame, with $2500 deep sectioned carbon fiber rims, used to race , with flat bars makes any possible sense.
Back as early as 2003 Argon 18 was producing a line of 'Platinum Flat Bar' bikes equipped with Dura Ace, or Ultegra or 105. Argon 18 is currently distributed in 15 different countries and for the past five years the Argon 18 Gallium Pro has been used by the SpiderTech Team.

And I hate arguments. Personally I think that if anyone has the money to finance the kind of bikes in those photographs, the time and interest to be there and the credentials to get accepted - they can drive whatever they want to.

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Old 11-27-12, 03:02 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Burton
Back as early as 2003 Argon 18 was producing a line of 'Platinum Flat Bar' bikes equipped with Dura Ace, or Ultegra or 105. And I hate arguments. Personally I think that if anyone has the money to finance the kind of bikes in those photographs, the tome and interest to be there and the credentials to get accepted - they can drive whatever they want to.
They weren't putting Zipp 404's on them. That's principally the disconnect. You save 10's of watts by spending $2500 on deep sectioned wheels,a nd then give back hundreds of watts with the bars.

that simply makes zero sense. People want to throw away their money like that, they're free to do so. I'm free to point out the gross inconsistency.
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Old 11-27-12, 04:28 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
They weren't putting Zipp 404's on them. That's principally the disconnect. You save 10's of watts by spending $2500 on deep sectioned wheels,a nd then give back hundreds of watts with the bars.

that simply makes zero sense. People want to throw away their money like that, they're free to do so. I'm free to point out the gross inconsistency.
You can assume those numbers if you want to - its really just a guess on your part based on what you think you see. I'm perfectly willing to say I'm not sure wha'ts going on there but it has my curiosity up. I did note that the Felt, Giant and Pinerello all have cut down bars, some pretty long stems and a pretty extreme seat to bar angle. Without actually seeing the rider/bike combo on the track - it would be hard to say how aerodynamic the combined package was.

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Old 11-27-12, 06:14 PM
  #46  
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Oooo.. me, me! It's a still a work in progress. Got it two weeks ago and tweaked it with some Doubletap 10, single lever shifters (awesome!), Conti GP4000s in 25mm, Ergon GP1 bio-cork grips, and the Brooks B17 Imperial I had on my previous bike. For whatever reason, the Brooks is more uncomfortable for me on this bike than any of my 3 previous ones, two of which I still ride. After my last ride I took off the Brooks and put on an E3 Form seat which I tried briefly before, liked, and stuck away for future use. We'll see how that feels. It's about 7 pounds lighter than my hybrid and you can feel it! It's nice to have both a hybrid and a road bike. I can see using them both with regularity. Mendota on the greenway, rail trails, etc. and Sirrus on the roads. Why does it have to get cold?!

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Old 11-27-12, 06:17 PM
  #47  
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Sorry everyone here it was sleep time in Japan. The crit those bikes were in was a non UCI sanctioned race here in Japan. We actually have a category for Flat Bars. I hope we can get this post back on track now and see some pics of Flat Bar ROAD bikes, not Flat Bar Hybrids. I'm sure Japan can not be the only country with such bikes. Let's see the pics and stop this aero advantage and I'm right you're wrong debate.
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Old 11-27-12, 06:32 PM
  #48  
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interesting this Pinarello flat bar model called Treviso https://www.pinarello.com/eng/treviso_725.php
not intented for racing, set up with road components though.
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Old 11-27-12, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Burton
You can assume those numbers if you want to .
No assumption. I own 3 sets of Zipp wheels. I know what they cost.
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Old 11-27-12, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by giantcfr1
Sorry everyone here it was sleep time in Japan. The crit those bikes were in was a non UCI sanctioned race here in Japan. We actually have a category for Flat Bars. .
And the question would be why?
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
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