bike science: more than 1 way to turn a bike?
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From now on, only straight roads for me. To change directions: stop, get off bike, lift it up, point it in the desired direction, and get back on. This technique always works.
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I mentioned it earlier. ...Most sport riders today seem to have too much swoop in their turns and have stiff/straight arms and as a result many crash needlessly.
I never mentioned wide or tight turns.
Silly about teachers. But it would be helpful if an experienced biker who knew physics could explain the differences I'm seeing in turning.
I never mentioned wide or tight turns.
Silly about teachers. But it would be helpful if an experienced biker who knew physics could explain the differences I'm seeing in turning.
#203
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Not arguing with you here, but actually I think the physics teacher who rides might be your best bet. I'm under the impression you are looking for a way to explain the science, and that actually is the teacher's job description. Just trying to suggest an alternative social media approach to your inquiry.
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You don’t learn until your 15th year. Keep the faith.
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#206
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Make sure your arms aren't too stiff when you lift the bike. Some undefined bad thing will happen. Something to do with proper swoop.
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How do bicycles balance themselves?
Towards the bottom, it highlights the ways that you could mess things up so that the bike would not be self-correcting. Now, that would be like a cycling nightmare! 😊
Otto
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https://theconversation.com/the-myst...-bicycle-55093
I’d suggest reading through the early parts, because the discussion is helpful.
Here are their findings: “We found that both novice and expert riders exhibit similar balance performance at slow speeds. But at higher speeds, expert riders achieve superior balance performance by employing smaller but more effective body movements and less steering. Regardless of speed, expert riders use smaller and less varying steering inputs and less body movement variation.
We conclude that expert riders are able to use body movements more effectively than novice riders, which results in reducing the demand for both large corrective steering and body movements.”
it doesn’t really address the finer distinction you are trying to make but gets a good framework for explaining how we balance on a bike.
What I was wanting to say earlier was that counter steering is a constant and integral part of balance on a bike. You can’t go down the block, much less around a corner, without counter steering. Put another way, a rider who isn’t counter steering is a fallen rider (or a stopped rider.)
Otto
Last edited by ofajen; 05-23-21 at 03:00 PM.
#209
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I'm not trying to make fine distinctions. Nor am I questioning countersteering, beyond noting that wiki says the described science isn't complete.
I'm saying there are (at least) 2 notably different ways to turn, useful for common and different handling needs. ...One being "swoopy" for fast downhill turns. The other being "steery" for slippery, detail-oriented turns, flat and uphill turns, and obstacle avoidance.
I find that riders today are bad about the second kind, resulting in frequent crashes.
Both ways are easy to do and to demonstrate.
I also find that bike science people say there's only one way to turn a bike. I question this. Or, at least, I find that this "one way" can be expressed in a range that includes two hugely distinct styles, one of which is helpful and not well known. I was hoping to learn more about the science behind the range of turning/handling options.
I was part of the Detroit Wolverinces Sports Club coached by Mike Walden from the 60s-90s. He made us learn steer turning for safety and results. It was one of the winningest bike teams in US history. Also, I felt much safer after applying this skill. When biking with other groups and on tracks elsewhere around the US I felt safe because of what I learned and I noticed that many riders had low skills. I'm not nervous or at risk in groups. Many sport riders express concern when in close fast groups -- I suggest they wdn't have to if they learned a few skills. Walden also made us bend our arms. Bike science ppl agree this is the best way to ride -- there's no dispute there -- and many of today's riders don't use that skill, either, and crash more for that reason as well.
I'm saying there are (at least) 2 notably different ways to turn, useful for common and different handling needs. ...One being "swoopy" for fast downhill turns. The other being "steery" for slippery, detail-oriented turns, flat and uphill turns, and obstacle avoidance.
I find that riders today are bad about the second kind, resulting in frequent crashes.
Both ways are easy to do and to demonstrate.
I also find that bike science people say there's only one way to turn a bike. I question this. Or, at least, I find that this "one way" can be expressed in a range that includes two hugely distinct styles, one of which is helpful and not well known. I was hoping to learn more about the science behind the range of turning/handling options.
I was part of the Detroit Wolverinces Sports Club coached by Mike Walden from the 60s-90s. He made us learn steer turning for safety and results. It was one of the winningest bike teams in US history. Also, I felt much safer after applying this skill. When biking with other groups and on tracks elsewhere around the US I felt safe because of what I learned and I noticed that many riders had low skills. I'm not nervous or at risk in groups. Many sport riders express concern when in close fast groups -- I suggest they wdn't have to if they learned a few skills. Walden also made us bend our arms. Bike science ppl agree this is the best way to ride -- there's no dispute there -- and many of today's riders don't use that skill, either, and crash more for that reason as well.
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*yawn*
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I don’t really understand your purpose for posting this thread. You profess good skills, you were coached, (which is probably more than most can say), and have suggested to others you ride/compete with to learn those skills.
The only thing I can think of is nobody will listen to you and you were hoping to get support for your approach from people here.
If that is the case, then sure use what Mike Walden taught you. I’ll give you a thumbs up.
John
The only thing I can think of is nobody will listen to you and you were hoping to get support for your approach from people here.
If that is the case, then sure use what Mike Walden taught you. I’ll give you a thumbs up.
John
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I don’t really understand your purpose for posting this thread. You profess good skills, you were coached, (which is probably more than most can say), and have suggested to others you ride/compete with to learn those skills.
The only thing I can think of is nobody will listen to you and you were hoping to get support for your approach from people here.
If that is the case, then sure use what Mike Walden taught you. I’ll give you a thumbs up.
John
The only thing I can think of is nobody will listen to you and you were hoping to get support for your approach from people here.
If that is the case, then sure use what Mike Walden taught you. I’ll give you a thumbs up.
John
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I too have been hoping the bike science people would show up and properly explain swooping, diving, and steer turning.
Then again, if it's all explained too well, there goes your secret competitive edge!
Then again, if it's all explained too well, there goes your secret competitive edge!
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Sorry, I was weirdly agreeing with you, figuring maybe the reason people aren't listening to him is he's probably running around accusing them of bad steering.
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I do think that when pushing the speed into tighter turns, and, ironically for me and maybe age related, slow tight u-turns get my attention more.
I’m not a bike science guy, but I “suspect” that I countersteer when I dive, at least my term, into a corner which allows me to push the pace and stay tight in the corner. Likewise when I take the same/similar turn and do a poor job I’ll end up exiting wider. I’m not sure, but if I remember I’ll try to figure out if it is technique or just miss-judgment.
John
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Some readers may find Jobst Brandt’s thoughts on descending (choosing a line, cornering, braking and so on) interesting in the context of this discussion:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html
Otto
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html
Otto
Last edited by ofajen; 05-24-21 at 08:39 AM.
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Have we talking about leering yet? I think that's what most people do.
Leaning +steering = leering. That's the real secret.
BTW, as I was going through an open gate on a path yesterday, a big black snake started slithering across in front of me. The only thoughts that entered my mind were, "Aaaaack, a snake! Don't hit it." I took some kind of split second evasive action, missed it and kept going. I really can't explain how. Could someone else explain what I did?
Leaning +steering = leering. That's the real secret.
BTW, as I was going through an open gate on a path yesterday, a big black snake started slithering across in front of me. The only thoughts that entered my mind were, "Aaaaack, a snake! Don't hit it." I took some kind of split second evasive action, missed it and kept going. I really can't explain how. Could someone else explain what I did?
Last edited by seypat; 05-24-21 at 08:08 AM.
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And if you drop the y you are left with awn, which, as many NYT crossword solvers know, is a stiff bristle. Quite fitting as this thread has made some bristle.
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I find that riders today are bad about the second kind, resulting in frequent crashes.
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Some readers may find Jobst Brandt’s thought on descending (choosing a line, cornering, braking and so on) interesting in the context of this discussion:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html
Otto
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html
Otto
Cornering requires estimating the required lean angle before reaching the apex of the turn where the angle with the road surface is the critical parameter rather the angle with the vertical, as is evident from banked curves. Lean angle is limited by the available traction that must be assessed from velocity and appearance of the surface. For good pavement, this angle is about 45 degrees, in the absence of oil, water, or smooth and slick spots. Therefore, a curve banked inward 10 degrees allows a lean of up to at least 55 degrees from the vertical, while a crowned road with no banking, where the surface falls off about 10 degrees, would allow only up to 35 degrees.
Once the basics of getting around a corner are developed, doing it fast involves careful use of the brakes. Besides knowing how steeply to lean in curves, understanding braking makes the difference between the average and the fast rider.
Some riders believe that sticking the knee out or leaning the body away from the bicycle improves cornering. Sticking out a knee is the same thing that riders without cleats do when they stick out a foot in dirt-track motorcycle fashion. On paved roads, this is a useless but reassuring gesture that, on uneven roads, even degrades control. Any body weight that is not centered over the bicycle (leaning the bike or sticking out a knee) puts a side load on the bicycle, and side loads cause steering motions over uneven road. Getting weight off the saddle is also made more difficult by such maneuvers.
Most of the "body English" riders display is gratuitous gesturing...
Once the basics of getting around a corner are developed, doing it fast involves careful use of the brakes. Besides knowing how steeply to lean in curves, understanding braking makes the difference between the average and the fast rider.
Some riders believe that sticking the knee out or leaning the body away from the bicycle improves cornering. Sticking out a knee is the same thing that riders without cleats do when they stick out a foot in dirt-track motorcycle fashion. On paved roads, this is a useless but reassuring gesture that, on uneven roads, even degrades control. Any body weight that is not centered over the bicycle (leaning the bike or sticking out a knee) puts a side load on the bicycle, and side loads cause steering motions over uneven road. Getting weight off the saddle is also made more difficult by such maneuvers.
Most of the "body English" riders display is gratuitous gesturing...
Since Jeff says he is faster than most in the corners, (and crashes less) he must be doing it right. Speed be with you my friend, and thanks for starting this thread!