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Old 09-10-18, 02:53 PM
  #5151  
Kaben
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Thanks for the input Queerpunk, Topflight & Carleton.

Queerpunk - i will definitely investigate the addition of a 120mm stem and see how that changes things before going for a 130. It makes sense because I was worried that my elbows were too close to my knees when comparing to other images of track riders I have seen. Most images show a lot more clear space between the knee and the elbow.

Carleton - Unfortunately I’m not in a position to change the frame so can’t do anything about the top tube length at this stage. Is there anything I can do in stem length / angle to account for this suggestion or is it purely about moving the front axle forward for the hand positioning?

TopFlight - I could look at flipping the stem or getting shorter drop bars. The stem is already as high on the fork steerer as it can go ( was hoping to drop the stem and cut the steerer for stiffness and cosmetic reasons but happy to leave this alone)

thanks again for your time guys
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Old 09-10-18, 03:49 PM
  #5152  
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Originally Posted by Kaben
Thanks for the input Queerpunk, Topflight & Carleton.

TopFlight - I could look at flipping the stem or getting shorter drop bars. The stem is already as high on the fork steerer as it can go ( was hoping to drop the stem and cut the steerer for stiffness and cosmetic reasons but happy to leave this alone)

thanks again for your time guys
You're welcome, and I agree with both QP and Carleton. Regarding the stem, don't hesitate to use an upturned stem. It's much more common in track than it is on the road. There is no stigma involved. In fact, I've seen guys on integrated stem frames, like Felts and Looks, with the stem pointed almost straight up.
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Old 09-14-18, 07:43 AM
  #5153  
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Thanks for all of those examples!
I have spoken to my local fitter and hes going to let me use the jig to test some stem variations and record it myself so I will get that done when i come back from holiday in a few weeks. Hopefully i can find a stem length / angle variation that will get me long enough without putting me too far past the axle.

I have another question for you guys. Its about gearing for Flying 200's (i know this has been asked many times and this does not have a definitive answer because its a personal / track / conditions thing). However i think my question is different as its related to the UpUpUp book.

In its training documents, it has a calibration workout session for the Ergo where you can determine your "power gear". Lots of the following workouts use this power gear +/- a certain number of inches. Im trying to find a good starting point for training flying 200's and i was wondering if there was a recommended number of inches to add to Power gear to get started for an optimal flying 200? ( or near enough)

The reason for this is i don't have regular access to a velodrome to train actual flying 200's but i would like to practice my leg speed and power for equivalent bursts out on the road or indoors on the kickr or rollers.

I have only done a handful of flying 200's. My fastest was 12.77 on an 88 inch gear ( 49/15 ). Im sure i can do faster than this with a heavier gear - up until recently this was the heaviest gear i owned.

hopefully this ramble makes sense
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Old 09-14-18, 10:25 AM
  #5154  
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If you did 12.77 on 88", then you'll certainly go faster with a larger gear. I'm fairly certain that you'll be 12.0X with a 14 cog the first time you try it.

I'm not too familiar with the UpUpUp power gear as I've never used that as a training tool. If you have a kickr, then you can do some experimentation using cadence and speed plots to dial in your "power gear".

Gearing is incredibly personal, so I hesitate to follow a "cookie cutter" program for training when it comes to gearing. Some people can develop speed easily at higher RPM ranges. Others need to gear up and torque their way to max speed. If your kickr can plot power and speed, you can use those curves to see where your sweet spot lies in the RPM range.
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Old 09-14-18, 10:40 AM
  #5155  
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Yeah, it was so much a hard an fast prescription for gearing but if there was a general trend of how much flying 200 gearing increases by above what they define as power gear.

The UpUpUp definition for power gear is the max gear you can turn over from a steady 80rpm up to approx 140rpm* within 5 seconds. (* the actual target differs slightly by age and gender)
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Old 09-16-18, 10:59 PM
  #5156  
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Originally Posted by SyntaxMonstr
Does anyone who owns a Kimera know what the biggest chainring you can fit on it is? I messaged Koga and they told me to ask my local dealer (none of those in Pakistan, surprisingly) so I called a bunch of LBS' in the UK and none of them stock Kogas. Velodrome Shop straight up said they didn't know. Even messaged a few Dutch riders on IG and got left on read I've put a 60t on it and there's space, but I'm hesitant to buy a bigger expensive chainring to learn that it won't fit.
I know a 65t fits. 65x12
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Old 09-25-18, 05:40 AM
  #5157  
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Originally Posted by Kaben
Yeah, it was so much a hard an fast prescription for gearing but if there was a general trend of how much flying 200 gearing increases by above what they define as power gear.

The UpUpUp definition for power gear is the max gear you can turn over from a steady 80rpm up to approx 140rpm* within 5 seconds. (* the actual target differs slightly by age and gender)
That is OLD info. A power gear is now 115-125rpm max for most people. >130 is a 'spinner' these days.
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Old 09-25-18, 05:41 AM
  #5158  
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Originally Posted by spartanKid
I don't think the gears you can turn over on the trainer (what the PG stuff UpUpUp is talking about) is super translatable to the track itself.

Regarding f200, gears, don't be afraid to go big, like stupid big. I dropped 0.3 (not 0.03) in a month by going from 53-13 to 55-12.


I had a similar experience in June at TTown. I started on 104" and by the end I was on 118"
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Old 09-26-18, 03:48 AM
  #5159  
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Originally Posted by spartanKid
I don't think the gears you can turn over on the trainer (what the PG stuff UpUpUp is talking about) is super translatable to the track itself.

Regarding f200, gears, don't be afraid to go big, like stupid big. I dropped 0.3 (not 0.03) in a month by going from 53-13 to 55-12.
Originally Posted by southernfox
That is OLD info. A power gear is now 115-125rpm max for most people. >130 is a 'spinner' these days.
Originally Posted by southernfox


I had a similar experience in June at TTown. I started on 104" and by the end I was on 118"
Thanks for the info both.

When i did my 12.77 on the 88 inch gears we also only had a half lap windup. not a problem with such a small gear - I think with a proper 2-3 lap windup i could definitely ride a heavier gear comfortably.

I would definitely consider myself a spinner. When i race crits my average cadence is about 105 and i hit about 135 - 150 rpm in the sprint, depending on gearing coming out of the last corner.
People i train with say my spinning is quite distracting in the chain gang as i am spinning alot faster than everyone else. It just feels natural to me. I am starting a significant weights program this off season though so perhaps my cadence will slow down as i get more accustomed to squatting heavier weights and thus pushing heavier gears. ( i am by no means a small guy either at approx 98kg's - i have always just felt more comfortable at fast legs speeds, i may be wasting potential).

i have purchased a 13 & 14t rear cog now and a 50t & 52t chainring so i have alot more gearing options. i know have 13,14,15,16,17 on the rear and 48,49,50,52 on the front.

108" is still my biggest available gear though.

Last edited by Kaben; 09-26-18 at 03:54 AM. Reason: Spelling
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Old 09-26-18, 04:17 AM
  #5160  
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Originally Posted by spartanKid
Have no fear of the up turned stem on a track bike!


https://www.instagram.com/p/BnljfODB9nc
Was there the day that pic was took...I remember seeing his chainring and letting out a chuckle at the madness when you see it in person. It's ENORMOUS.
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Old 09-26-18, 07:10 AM
  #5161  
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Originally Posted by spartanKid
Enduro riders: "LOL I don't have anything bigger than a 49"

Me: "LOL, I don't ride anything smaller than 54" (I have 48-57, don't @ me)
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Old 09-26-18, 07:13 AM
  #5162  
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Originally Posted by Kaben
Thanks for the info both.

When i did my 12.77 on the 88 inch gears we also only had a half lap windup. not a problem with such a small gear - I think with a proper 2-3 lap windup i could definitely ride a heavier gear comfortably.

I would definitely consider myself a spinner. When i race crits my average cadence is about 105 and i hit about 135 - 150 rpm in the sprint, depending on gearing coming out of the last corner.
People i train with say my spinning is quite distracting in the chain gang as i am spinning alot faster than everyone else. It just feels natural to me. I am starting a significant weights program this off season though so perhaps my cadence will slow down as i get more accustomed to squatting heavier weights and thus pushing heavier gears. ( i am by no means a small guy either at approx 98kg's - i have always just felt more comfortable at fast legs speeds, i may be wasting potential).

i have purchased a 13 & 14t rear cog now and a 50t & 52t chainring so i have alot more gearing options. i know have 13,14,15,16,17 on the rear and 48,49,50,52 on the front.

108" is still my biggest available gear though.
You need less windup than you think. You can jump on an 88" on a 250 track as you hit the end of turn 4, whereas you're jumping a little earlier on each bigger gear. But even on huge gears, the first 1.5 laps are mostly just going fast enough not to slide down the track as we corkscrew our way to the rail. The effort doesn't really start to wind up until coming out of 2 with 1.5 to go.

On a 333 the first lap is just totally chilling and the effort doesn't start winding up until you get into turn 4 (because the jump is usually out of 2).

When I do training or warmup jumps on small gears (88-92), it's just utterly chilling until turn 3-4 on a 250, because it's SO easy to wind up the gear, there's just no need to waste the energy in getting to the jump point at higher speed.
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Old 09-26-18, 07:27 AM
  #5163  
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Thanks for the insight.
This effort was done on a 450m track ( Herne Hill, London UK). Basically slowly increased speed near the top of the track down the front straight, through turn one and two. The 200m start line is just before turn 3 so dived down to the black at that point to avoid going up hill into the corner at all and then span my legs off to the finish line just before turn 1. ( the track is not 100% level and has a slight incline at turn 3).

I'm hopeful that i can break 12 seconds with more practice and heavier gears. I think 12.7 is respectable given what i had access to, especially as it was quite windy ( and not in my favour haha).
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Old 09-26-18, 08:04 AM
  #5164  
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The 200m is a VERY technical event. 12.7 your first try is very very good.
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Old 09-27-18, 11:32 AM
  #5165  
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Question for officials.

I pulled a pedal immediately in my 500m TT start today (but because I was so heavily strapped in, my foot was still 'on' the pedal but sacrificed 200w and had a garbage time.

Could I have just stopped/slow-rolled and got a restart?
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Old 09-27-18, 03:10 PM
  #5166  
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Originally Posted by southernfox
Question for officials.

I pulled a pedal immediately in my 500m TT start today (but because I was so heavily strapped in, my foot was still 'on' the pedal but sacrificed 200w and had a garbage time.

Could I have just stopped/slow-rolled and got a restart?
My guess would be no since you didn't have an observable issue (e.g. foot out of pedal, flat tire, broken chain, tire rubbing chainstay, fell over...).

Philip Hindes (GBR) famously flopped when he flubbed a start in the gold medal round for TS at the London Olympics. I wouldn't suggest that, though. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they had rehearsed how to flop if needed.
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Old 09-27-18, 09:37 PM
  #5167  
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Originally Posted by southernfox
Question for officials.

I pulled a pedal immediately in my 500m TT start today (but because I was so heavily strapped in, my foot was still 'on' the pedal but sacrificed 200w and had a garbage time.

Could I have just stopped/slow-rolled and got a restart?
No restart. You would have had to actually pull your shoe out of the pedal for a restart, and even, then, maybe "crash". I had the exact same thing happen on three separate occasions and only got a restart when I had broken a strap, as that was classified as an equipment failure.
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Old 09-27-18, 11:17 PM
  #5168  
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I ended up asking one of the UCI officials and she said 'yes' that I'd be allowed one...

...oh well.
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Old 09-28-18, 02:25 AM
  #5169  
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Originally Posted by southernfox
I ended up asking one of the UCI officials and she said 'yes' that I'd be allowed one...

...oh well.
Did you explain the situation the same way as you did here?

If I can say that my foot came off of the pedal yet remain engaged within the strap with no visiable proof that it happened, at that point, it's based on my word.

No athlete is given a do-over based on their word in any sport. If so, the floodgates would be open for mulligans.

You have to prove that you had a mechanical malfunction that is outside of your control before being granted a do-over.

From the UCI Rulebook rule number 3.2.021:



If your pedal didn't break and you can prove it, you don't get a do-over.

I'm not disputing that the UCI official told you that...but (s)he was wrong. I have a hard time believing that you can tell them that you unclipped underneath your straps and in the face of the rule above they would grant you a do-over. If you got one, it was a courtesy, not based on the rule.

EDIT:

Here is a link to the UCI Track Rulebook. The rule cited above is at the beginning, on the bottom of page 7 in the General Observations section.

Last edited by carleton; 09-28-18 at 02:45 AM. Reason: grammer
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Old 09-28-18, 05:40 AM
  #5170  
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I think this depends heavily on the official's discretion. Recently I had my bike DQed because the official did not understand the morphological exemption rule. No arguing with him. A month later at the same track, a different official let me ride even though he showed my my bars were about 1cm over the limit. You just never know.
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Old 09-28-18, 10:18 AM
  #5171  
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Yes I explained it to them as I did here. They said I'd have to immediately pull up and slow roll.

And...what a UCI official tells you at an event is what is correct (for that event). If they say 'yes' to something, then the answer is 'yes.'
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Old 09-28-18, 11:10 AM
  #5172  
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Small and simple: Why are there no gears?
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Old 09-28-18, 11:21 AM
  #5173  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke
I think this depends heavily on the official's discretion. Recently I had my bike DQed because the official did not understand the morphological exemption rule. No arguing with him. A month later at the same track, a different official let me ride even though he showed my my bars were about 1cm over the limit. You just never know.
Originally Posted by southernfox
Yes I explained it to them as I did here. They said I'd have to immediately pull up and slow roll.

And...what a UCI official tells you at an event is what is correct (for that event). If they say 'yes' to something, then the answer is 'yes.'
This illustrates exactly why there is a rule in place and why there are technical rules in all sports...it removes the element of discretion.

Last edited by carleton; 09-28-18 at 11:26 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 09-28-18, 01:06 PM
  #5174  
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Originally Posted by Riveting
Small and simple: Why are there no gears?
The sport was created when bicycles were the #1 means of mechanical transportation. It was super popular just like the #1 means of transportation now (cars) gives rise to one of the top spectator sports (NASCAR and motorsport in general).

The first bikes were fixed gears. Even the first 20-30 years of Tour De France races were on fixed gears.

So, when bikes evolved, some genres of the sport changed and some stayed the same. Now look at how many different genres of professional cycling we have: BMX, CX, MTB, Track, Road, MTB Trials, etc...

Put another way: "Why are their foot races when cars exist?"
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Old 09-28-18, 04:01 PM
  #5175  
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Two beginner questions:
1. Are there gear inch limits in beginner level races?
2. What kind of cadence is required to be competitive on a 48x17 gearing

I'm considering what front chaining I may need to get if I want to complete and compete in a beginner category training program and races.

I'm wondering how fast I have to spin my road 48x17 (as a target) before it's even worth considering paying insurance and track fees.
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