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Welding my own frame -- is it crazy?

Old 10-28-20, 09:56 AM
  #26  
Happy Feet
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Originally Posted by koenbro
I have finished my build of a touring bike in August using a 1994 Trek 520 frame. So far I've put about 500 miles on it, with shorter (20-50 miles) rides around town. I am restless, and curious about making the same/similar bike with a lighter frame. Would transfer the wheels and saddle, but put a new groupset. It would not be a tourer, but an everyday rider plus randonneur. I like the slender lines of steel frames; in fact I gave my 2021 Trek FX4 Sport Carbon, a very fine bike by any measure, to my wife. She loves it and says it's the highest quality bike she's ever had. But for me it's steel all the way.

I am considering welding up my own frame. By background, I am a medical professional, but I am a garage guy, and hobby welder, and am moderately experienced with TIG welding (and am decent with SilBr brazing) and own a competent AC TIG machine. I can also do basic fabrication, have a shop press, a brake, tube notcher, metal bandsaw, CNC plasma setup (Hypertherm 45XP), fixturing top.

The voice of reason in me says it's crazy and "Don't do it", but wanted to solicit y'allz's opinion.

The plan is to start with a Rene Herse superlight Kaizei tubeset (around $200) plus the BB shell, fork crown and blades, and various smaller add-ons. Would probably need to build a frame-maker fixture out of plywood and 8020. Maybe I should have myself professionally sized/fitted first (although my current Trek 520 fits well).

In the end will paint it this gorgeous Colnago blue.

Would add a 2x groupset, maybe campagnolo with rim brakes (probably centerpull).

Alternative #2 is to buy an old (1980s-1990s) Italian frame off eBay and build that up. My concern is about how wide a tire I can fit. I have a very strong preference for knobby 42-44 mm tires which work best for the style of riding I am doing; certainly nothing thinner than 38mm is of interest).

How hard is it to build a frame from a set like the one above? WHat alternatives are there -- can I buy a frameset from other sources? Any and all advice is greatly appreciated.
A couple of points others have also touched upon.

1. What's the downside of trying it. A couple of hundred bucks is pretty cheap for a hobby. Worse case - you learn something along the way.

2. If you have a bike that fits very comfortable I don't think I'd bother with a pro fitting. Just replicate that bike with better material. I have an Apollo like that. If I ever wanted a custom build I would take that bike in and tell the builder to replicate it with better material/fittings.

3. When I dream of a custom build it isn't really for the frame itself. as Tourist in Msn said, I fit a lot of off the wall bikes and could probably just find a nice quality frame far cheaper than a custom build. What I would like are certain attachments. Three bottle points, pump pegs, eyelet on the top tube for a gas tank bag and on the forks, horizontal dropouts...

Also integral racks for a rando bag and saddle bag. It's funny we buy bikes and then have to bolt 2- $400 racks on them. Sleek, minimalist welded racks that suit the function of the bike would be a benefit and custom/unique.
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Old 10-28-20, 12:11 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
...
Also integral racks for a rando bag and saddle bag. It's funny we buy bikes and then have to bolt 2- $400 racks on them. Sleek, minimalist welded racks that suit the function of the bike would be a benefit and custom/unique.
A couple years ago I saw a gal that had some really nice racks on her bike, asked where she got them. She had them custom made by a local frame builder. Unfortunately I did not have a pen, by the time I got home I could not remember enough to find the contact info on that frame builder.
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Old 10-29-20, 01:57 PM
  #28  
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Welding your own frame is an adventure ! Expect to make mistakes, but it makes you a better builder next time around. Maybe try straight gage cromo tubing or even high ten steel on your first projects. Move to the exotic stuff as you get better. As for jigs, I started out with wood jigs - just make sure to have a fire extinguisher nearby just in case. We visited a local town framebuilder in Italy maybe 30 years ago. All he had were hand tools, gas welder and a bike stand. No jigs. Everything was done by eye and simple hand tools. If you really want to do it, it can be done with some hard work and research. Your enthusiasm and ingenuity can trump the need for expensive tools.

Here's a frame I brazed over a decade ago using straight gage cromo tubing .035 wall thickness. Started out as a road bike but reviving it now to become a touring bike with more upright bars to match the aging rider. Changing it to a 1x drivetrain so this old geezer doesn't get confused as to which side to shift.

Good luck on your frame building adventure.

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Old 10-30-20, 03:07 PM
  #29  
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I strongly discourage you from the idea of building a frame that would take really long side pull brakes for 42 tires, because of the long arms, they will not be rigid and braking will be really really lousy, that's why no one does it. You really need to think cantilever or disc brakes. (or v- brakes with special brake levers) I know about lousy braking with long reach side pulls from having walking aid scooters made in China
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Old 10-30-20, 06:31 PM
  #30  
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I just got the Proteus book (a 1976 edition) in the mail today and have looked through it. Read the bits about brazing and it was quite helpful.

Yeah this is not a simple call. If I could buy a sleek and light Italian frame with rim brakes and room for 42 mm tires, would do it in a heartbeat. Couldn't find any, alas.
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Old 10-31-20, 10:17 AM
  #31  
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Hi,
I just noticed that you are in Phoenix. I did not realize that you were close. I am out in Globe. Would it help to come out and see what you need to build a frame? In the last 8 years, I have been focused on building road bikes (and flat bar road bikes that take wide tires.) I have one one road bike that I built with dual pivot long reach side pull brakes that takes up to 700 x 32 tires. (barely)
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Old 10-31-20, 12:04 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by koenbro
...
Yeah this is not a simple call. If I could buy a sleek and light Italian frame with rim brakes and room for 42 mm tires, would do it in a heartbeat. Couldn't find any, alas.
Perhaps if you are looking for a complete frame, add titanium to your list.

My Lynskey Backroad frame is disc, not rim brake. That is my first and so far my only disc brake bike. I built it up with a LHT rim brake fork that I already owned. Thus, it is rim brake in front, disc rear. I think the frame will take 45mm tires, but I have fenders on mine, mine is now limited to 37mm tires because of the fenders. I am very happy with that bike.

It however is a touring bike, with touring strength wheels, etc., so even though it has a titanium frame, it is not that light.
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Old 10-31-20, 01:09 PM
  #33  
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You could go down and talk to Andy Gilmour in Tucson, he has been building frames for a long time.
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Old 11-02-20, 11:26 AM
  #34  
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I will say, given your experience, and equipment, and interest in bicycles, it seems like a natural transition. Learn all you can form others who have done it, and go for it.
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Old 11-02-20, 05:53 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by phughes
I will say, given your experience, and equipment, and interest in bicycles, it seems like a natural transition. Learn all you can form others who have done it, and go for it.
That's what I'm afraid of, TBH. This hobby is sucking me in, and I don't even try to resist it.
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Old 11-02-20, 06:21 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by koenbro
That's what I'm afraid of, TBH. This hobby is sucking me in, and I don't even try to resist it.
I'm a "do'er" and every time I turn around theres another idea of something to make. That's just the way my head spins. I'm always thinking about "gee, this would be nice to have", or "this doesn't work the way I think it should", or "I have such and such challenge and nothing to meet it". The sucking in is real - the "black hole"... you never escape.

I made a set of cone wrenches a couple months ago - just because - I was doing some wheel work and my regular wrenches wouldn't fit so I thought I'd just make some. Used sheet metal for the wrench claws lined with 70k psi tensile filler metal (7014 electrodes) for the faces, ground to fit. They work great.

Next fab project appears to be a trailer for the bike. I am contemplating trying my hand at welding aluminum. I have electrodes, and can get more at my local welding supply. If I could TIG I would, but you can most certainly stick aluminum. It just doesn't work, or look, nearly as good as TIG. We'll see. I am more confident with steel, by a long shot, but it would be a neat project to try aluminum. The same advice I gave earlier is very much true here - weld test pieces and destructive test to prove the process before going hog wild on the assembly only to run in to problems.
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Old 11-02-20, 07:12 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by koenbro
That's what I'm afraid of, TBH. This hobby is sucking me in, and I don't even try to resist it.
Don't feel bad...


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Old 11-02-20, 07:16 PM
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Wait!
Horizontal, and opposing, hmm, is that a boxer? Per chance a Porsche rebuild?!
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Old 11-02-20, 08:47 PM
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I am guessing a BMW.
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Old 11-03-20, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by koenbro
Wait!
Horizontal, and opposing, hmm, is that a boxer? Per chance a Porsche rebuild?!
Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
I am guessing a BMW.
Ha! Neither. It is a Ural, a Russian copy of the BMW. It had a broken follower on the tappet, which damaged the camshaft. I'm just waiting on two more tappets and guides since two of the four I bought were machined incorrectly. I have already replaced the camshaft.


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Old 11-05-20, 07:07 AM
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Built my first frame in 2001. Have built 5 frames in total now, but no forks. This winter will be my first fork. Have zero experience with TIG, but had sweated copper once and learned brazing back in the 70's, but never did it after learning it. Jumped in using lugs and no jig, just pegged the joints together and cold set alignment where needed. Still use that first frame as a daily rider. No videos, only books on brazing. It went very well and have only replaced the drive side drop out after 20k miles. Figure it overheated during the build. Have close to 40k on that frame now.
Originally built it because stock frames simply didn't do it for me fit wise, and didn't give me bragging rights (lol, I ride alone 99% of the time). It isn't hard to do, and gives you complete control over the creative process and you can make it any way you want it. Braze-ons where you want them, details that are unique to your frame and will not be found anywhere else. JUST DO IT
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Old 11-05-20, 07:17 AM
  #42  
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Tappet
ha, makes me think of that radio show ,, Car Talk, with the "tappet brothers", Boston guys I think.
would occasionally hear it on npr here in Montreal, couple of wacky characters that made for fun, often sarcastic humour listening.

seems to me one of them died a bunch of years ago

but wait, we can't admit to being petrolheads here can we? Naw, we can be both. I've always been.
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Old 11-05-20, 11:09 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by djb
Tappet
ha, makes me think of that radio show ,, Car Talk, with the "tappet brothers", Boston guys I think.
would occasionally hear it on npr here in Montreal, couple of wacky characters that made for fun, often sarcastic humour listening.

seems to me one of them died a bunch of years ago

but wait, we can't admit to being petrolheads here can we? Naw, we can be both. I've always been.
Yeah, that was a fun show to listen to. Yes, one of the brothers died. For a short time they had a cartoon as well.
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Old 11-05-20, 09:00 PM
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The brothers were Ray and ... Magliozzi (sp?) . Loved that show.
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Old 11-06-20, 08:43 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by djb
Tappet
ha, makes me think of that radio show ,, Car Talk, with the "tappet brothers", Boston guys I think.
would occasionally hear it on npr here in Montreal, couple of wacky characters that made for fun, often sarcastic humour listening.

seems to me one of them died a bunch of years ago

but wait, we can't admit to being petrolheads here can we? Naw, we can be both. I've always been.

Tom and Ray..from Cambridge, MA ("..our fair city..")

Tommy came down with Alzheimer's and continued to do the show..while both acknowledging that things were slipping away. Great show..listened to them for years. I miss it.
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Old 11-06-20, 12:55 PM
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The goofy banter and wacky offshoots of topic were often hilarious.. mixed in with actual good car advice sometimes.
like I said, I heard it infrequently, but have good memories of their silly chemistry.
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Old 11-06-20, 03:31 PM
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If memory serves..I think they both had engineering degrees from MIT. Though they'd never admit it, they knew their stuff and had a great track record of correctly diagnosing issues people had with they vehicles.

I tried to find it, but didn't come across a source to hear one of my fav shows:
#1452 : Max and the Schnauzer

Apparently there's still some shows available:
https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510208/car-talk
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Old 11-06-20, 06:30 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by fishboat
If memory serves..I think they both had engineering degrees from MIT. Though they'd never admit it, they knew their stuff and had a great track record of correctly diagnosing issues people had with they vehicles.

I tried to find it, but didn't come across a source to hear one of my fav shows:
#1452 : Max and the Schnauzer

Apparently there's still some shows available:
https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510208/car-talk
hey cooool fishboat.
I drive regularly to another city for family and always organize podcasts to listen to, so this will be a larf to hear them again.
Thanks a bunch
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Old 11-06-20, 09:09 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by fishboat
If memory serves..I think they both had engineering degrees from MIT. Though they'd never admit it, they knew their stuff and had a great track record of correctly diagnosing issues people had with they vehicles.

I tried to find it, but didn't come across a source to hear one of my fav shows:
#1452 : Max and the Schnauzer

Apparently there's still some shows available:
https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510208/car-talk
Tom went to MIT, Ray was a science teacher.
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