JacobLee 

Dumb Question of the Day:

I don’t have any experience with these old rims, but I do somehow have options. And I don’t have any old rear wheels, but I’ve got three fronts. I’m definitely not using the sew-up original from my International, but it also came with a spare clincher on a Campy hub. Then there’s the original Normandy/unmarked that came on this SC.

Which to overhaul and use?

Thanks!






Normandy has some funky spokes, making the question even more dumb, am I right?

daka

Spokes are inexpensive. Until the Raleigh-branded SR and Suntour bits of the later '70s, Super Course componentry was typically French. Stronglight, Nervar, Simplex, Huret and ......Normandy. I'd be inclined to use the Normandy hub and save the Campy hub for your International. If you need a Normandy rear hub to build a matched set, I may be able to help.....

cudak888 

Build whatever has a hooked bead. If the third rim is dual wall, start with that one.

-Kurt

JacobLee 

Thanks for the info and the offer! I’ll try this bike with the 700C set that I have and see what it’s like.

Question: Do the Normandy rear hubs take French threaded Freewheels?

JacobLee 

Unfortunately, my collection of 27” front wheels contains no hooked beads, or dual wall, unless you’re referring to the sew-up. I tore into the Normandy hub, which was interesting. Never seen a keyed axle, seems like a bad idea. Never seen stickier grease! When I had the mess cleaned up, I counted 19 bearings. I probably should have had twenty? I was able to research that they are 3/16” bearings, but I thought it was interesting that I couldn’t find a bearing count with a normal amount of googling. Is that because it’s just common sense, or was I searching the wrong words?

Thanks!

rustystrings61 

Most Normandy rear hubs sold in the U.S. take English thread, not French - especially if it's the stock rear wheel on a Raleigh! I misremember how many ball bearings per side, and I should know this - I just repacked a Normandy rear hub two weeks ago! Once you get it sorted out, they're often surprisingly smooth-running old hubs.

If you have a plain old single-walled 27-in front wheel, that will do. I ride those all the time, I just run my tires at 70 psi the way I did in 1974 and they're fine.

JacobLee 

Anybody have any tips for getting the shifter cables out of the plastic levers?

Thanks!

JacobLee 

Figured it out: mug of hot water.

daka

You have to be careful - the Normandy hubs came both ways. If it is a hub from a Peugeot, it is probably French threaded and the same hub from a Raleigh will be English threaded. If you have a choice, I'd suggest going with the English thread since most replacement freewheels will be English threaded

cudak888 

Nope, was referring to the inside of the rim having a secondary wall for strength.

Were you thinking of a quick rebuild, or do you think you'll want to use this pretty frequently in future? Might be worth investing in a pair of new rims.

-Kurt

JacobLee 

I was referring to the sew up rim being dual wall; impossible for those to be single, right?

Quick rebuild. I have a strong suspicion this bike will end up with 700c wheels. And after struggling with getting the dainty locknuts onto those keyed Normandy axles, I don’t think it will have French hubs. And after having to soak the plastic shifters in hot water to get the cables out, I don’t think it will have French shifters! I love France, but gimme a break!

cudak888 

True, a tubular rim is always dual-wall - unless there's something super weird out there I haven't seen before - which means it probably exists. Come to think of it, old wooden tubulars would be solid, so there's that!

A pair of used 700C's should do you well to get it up and running with a matching set of presentable wheels.

Ah, the French have good stuff, but the bike boom ensured that the worst bits were built in the greatest numbers. Some Suntour should do you well in regards to the shifters, but the Normandy hubs really aren't that terrible. A pain to repack, yes, but not terrible enough to avoid if you've got 'em.

-Kurt

noglider 

I never had a problem overhauling Normandy hubs, and I may have overhauled more of them than any other kind. The axles tend to bend and break, and the cones tend to get pitted. If none of these happens to you, ride on. If you ever need to replace them, the new stuff is likely to last longer.

JacobLee 

I felt bad as soon as I disparaged the French parts. I really do love that country, and I was happy to tinker with some of their engineering! Also, I’d hate to sound xenophobic or nationalistic. American components suck too!

I was lucky to have the “basket case Mirage” in the garage; its front Normandy hub had one good cone, and the Raleigh had one good cone. Packed 20 new 3/16 bearings in there, and we’re rolling.

cudak888 

Don't feel bad. There was a lot of stuff that came out of France during the 1970s - high end and low end - that deserves the scorn and bad press. It doesn't help that every other Raleigh and Peugeot UO and PA/PX had Simplex's greatest plastic contributions to man bolted to them. A lot of folks don't want to admit that Raleigh rivaled and sometimes surpassed French builders for sheer sloppiness in the 1970's, so everybody had their time in the sun to show just how terrible they could make something.

While I really don't give a damn who or where a component comes from - so long as it works - I don't mind sticking it in good spirit when the era calls for it.

On that note - can you imagine if constructeurs had been running the show? Those guys could turn scrap wire and steel stock into better-operating, more durable front derailers than Huret and Simplex could produce. Problem is, whatever they would come up with would probably cost 5 cents more than making the cheapo. And then there's Lucien Juy clinging onto his precious plunger-operated derailers...

-Kurt

Salamandrine 

The obvious answer is that you should repack the hubs in both. It's not hard.

The campy however are on a whole other level of quality. Cr-mo axles, ground and heat treated races and cones, super high tolerance bearings. BITD they were like $75 vs 10 bucks for Normandy. So do those first.

JacobLee 

Absolutely. I’m still fond of asking dumb questions, though, because I learn something every time I do. Thanks for your patience!

Speaking of super high tolerance bearings, would you re-use them when overhauling a Campy hub? If so, with what grade?

JacobLee 

Okay, so the claim that the Normandy hub was rolling was a bit premature. One of the cones was in bad shape, so I harvested a good one from another wheel I had around. The original cone (On the right) was just shy of 12mm thick, and I didn’t realize it, but the new one was 10mm.



I realized that I couldn’t get a cone wrench on the new cone because there wasn’t enough space between the hub body and the keyed washer. I found a thin washer, ground flats in it so it will hopefully stay out of the way of the cone wrench, and have the same thickness as the old cone.


Sound thinking, or ditch it until I can find the right cone?

JacobLee 

Comin’ along.

JacobLee 

The front hub worked out just fine, and actually spins nicely. I didn’t realize the o.l.d. is smaller for the Normandy. Measures 96-97. I don’t suppose anybody worries about 3-4 mm when swapping these front wheels around? Or do they?

Had a funny experience routing a shifter cable through the shifters. Tried to pull the cable through the curve, and it twisted up just like a ribbon on gift wrap.



Add that to the list of things I’ve never seen before. Used it for the front, and did it the right way. Hadn’t really noticed the barrel adjusters on the shifters. I guess those would be useful if you were running full housing?

Speaking of housing, I suppose there’s a stepped ferrule that fits into the Simplex, but I copied the treatment of the original with a little grinder work. Seems fine.

OldsCOOL

Super C-ool find and a great price tag, too! Vintage cycling is a great hobby!

JacobLee 

Agreed, especially if you like working on bikes as much as riding them.

JacobLee 

Here it is, done for now.



Rides great. I already knew the handlebars would be too narrow for my taste. A bit too much reach as well. Simplex parts worked fine! Weinmann centerpulls are amazing, in my opinion.

Now it seems like I’ve got to figure out which of these frames I like better, because between them they’ve got enough good parts for one bike.



The International needs a front derailleur, and I was told to retire the crank. Had to install a tall, short stem to get the bars a little closer. Super Course needs less stem and seatpost. I dunno, maybe I’m overthinking it, but that’s just how my thinker works.

cudak888 

Do you think the difference might have been due to the hub cone swap? Should be OK either way, though I'd keep an eye on those "helper" washers, just in case they allow the cones to back out slightly.

-Kurt

JacobLee 

I only had to use the helper washer on one side, because one of the original cones was good. Original is 12mm deep, replacement with helper washer is 12mm deep. Maybe someone monkeyed with it in the past? Axle is 103.5 long, and I had problems threading the locknut on, so maybe it was cut? I can’t imagine why. QR has lots of thread showing, too, though I suppose the dropouts are thin.

Replecement cone with brass washer:

Original cone: