niknak

For long days in the saddle, I've found that regular sneakers or MTB shoes for flat pedals combined with a large MTB platform pedal is the most comfortable. To me, comfort is more important than any perceived marginal gains from being clipped in. Since I'm wearing decent walking shoes, I don't have to carry another set of shoes. Win, win.

JohnJ80

depends on what you consider “marginal.” I routinely get an additional 30% power output when climbing by being able to pedal more fully through the pedal stroke according to my power meter. Yes, it takes some focus on technique but I don’t see that as simply a “marginal” gain either.

CargoDane

Then you either have bad pedalling technique on platforms or have slippery pedals (i.e. without spikes). Or both.
You don't gain 30 percent, nor do you lose 22 percent of the power output going to platforms.


You don't lose 30 percent by using platforms, and if coming from platforms, you don't suddenly gain 42-43 percent of efficiency (power output). There is no way that is even close to being in the same zip code of the ballpark.

niknak

The OP was asking about how to increase comfort, not performance. I've found if I'm comfortable, I can ride longer with less strain on the body. That's why I suggested he try flat pedals with sneakers or dedicated MTB shoes that have stiffer soles. Of course, just like clipless pedals, not all flat pedals are the same. For mountain biking, touring, and bikepacking, I like OneUp Components' composite pedals. They have a pretty long platform for providing foot support, long pins for great traction, and they retail for $49. That's a small price to pay to test if flat pedals are maybe a better option for the OP. Much cheaper than spending lots of money on different clipless compatible shoes that may or may not resolve the OP's problem with hot foot.

pdlamb

I've bought a lot of Sidi parts over the years, but I've never seen replaceable/replacement treads. Can you supply a link?

CargoDane

Yup.

I use some from Sixpack Racing. Can't remember the model name of them, but they have moved with me from the previous bike to the one I now use.

JohnJ80

depends on the shoe but here are some from the Sidi website. I know Competitive Cyclist and Excel Sports also carry them.

https://www.ciclista-america.com/sto...?idCategory=10

JohnJ80

dont think I had terrible technique - pretty similar to most people that don’t pay attention to it. But, after concentrating on better technique, I can generate 20-30% more sustained power than I can on flat pedals. That’s the thing about having a power meter - it doesn’t lie.

Getting shoes that fit your feet and are not cramped (OP’s characterization) and making sure he has decent insoles is not going to translate into lots of money on different pairs of shoes. It’s not rocket science to fit shoes. You get “sneakers” that don’t fit and you’re going to hurt too. It’s not the shoe, it’s the fit.

CargoDane

It may not lie, but it's the first time I have heard someone talking about a 30 percent gain in power. Something just doesn't add up. Especially considering that the "lesser" part of the rotation does not provide 30 percent additional power. Something else is going on, regardless of your "truthful" power meter.

Edit:
Most studies I can find talk about a gain in power so small it vanishes in the noise. In particular if you're not on a roller. There are other benefits (and cons) of clipless vs. platforms, but no study has ever found a 30 percent gain in power output. I'm sorry to say, but that's just nonsense.

niknak

Over the years I've yet to find a pair of cycling specific shoes that have been as comfortable as sneakers. I've tried 5.10s, Specialized, Shimano, Lake, Sidi, and Giro shoes. I've used Shimano, Speedplay, Crank Bros., and Look pedals. All have given me hot spots or numbness during rides longer than 2 hours. I've found the Specialized Body Geometry insoles to provide the best support without being bulky, but combined with the above mentioned shoes, I've never gotten rid of hot spots or numbness.

The main factor for me is that there aren't any cycling shoes with a foot-shaped toe box, what you'd find wearing Altras or other similar brands. All of the cycling specific shoes have pointy tips. That squishes my toes and causes discomfort. So I'd disagree with you and argue that it is definitely the shoe. Your feet might just be less particular than mine and the OP's.

That's why I suggested the OP try flat pedals. I'm assuming he already has sneakers that are comfortable for him. So for the minimal cost of a good flat pedal, his comfort issue could be resolved.

CargoDane

I just realised something:


Are you comparing yourself to being on platforms but not paying attention, to switching to clipless and then paying attention?
I think you are, and in that case, I'm right: Something else was going on. It's not the pedals, it is you paying attention to what you're doing.

If you're still claiming the 30 percent additional power, You must think I'm superhuman. I use platform pedals, and I can keep up with similarly loaded bikes other people ride. I not only have a somewhat knobbly front tyre, but belt drive and a Rohloff. Yet, I still manage to keep up with people. I guess I'd be much quicker up hill or with a much larger load with the ability to output 30 percent more power.

I can't believe I'm wasting 22 percent of the power that people running clipless have. I could gain 30 percent of power just by switching pedals. What a waste of my effort. Damn platforms.

Oh, but I'm more than merely superhuman: I am also a below-the-knee amputee on the left leg and tend to therefore use my right leg a bit more (I really have to concentrate to make the left leg work as hard as the right one). With all those losses, it's magic how I seem to be able to keep up with people.

JohnJ80

I’m willing to discuss this with you but not if you’re going to put words in my mouth and sarcastically stretch what I’ve said.

Pedaling normally without concentrating on getting the most out of the pedal stroke but still pushing it as a training ride and then concentrating on pedal stroke, I’m able to put out 30% more power sustained.

After I did that, given that this is a contentious topic in a lot of forums, I put on athletic trainer shoes and my platform mtb pedals (studded and all the rest) and attempted to get the same power numbers. I could not and the best I could do was to get similar power numbers to what I did wearing carbon soled cycling shoes and not concentrating on the pedaling technique (ie. first case).

I attribute that to loss in the sole of the shoe (flexing/squishing etc..) and the inability to apply power to the pedal in the non-downward parts of the stroke.

I have no idea how you pedal or what works for you. To be truthful, I don’t care either. Satisfied myself and I did it numerically and that’s good enough for me. YMMV and if it does, good for you.

JohnJ80

I have a somewhat wide foot and I have trouble finding an off the shelf fit in cycling shoes. By experimenting with insoles, different sizing and trying a lot of shoes, I’ve found shoes that work for me on the road, for MTB/gravel and for touring. There are a LOT of shoes coming out how that are the engineered sole so it’s more walkable and that are much wider in the toe box. In the last two years, it’s much easier to find spd style shoes than it was before.

Getting a shoe that is a bit larger than you normally wear will usually give you more room/volume and with no significant impact in length. You can then get a thicker insole to take up the excess volume. I use the SOLE insoles that are heat moldable and I mold them myself with a heat gun to shape them how I want them to be. That tends to work really well.

A trick with Sidi’s that can also be really helpful - the sole on, say a 44 is the same as on a 44.5 but they put extra material in the upper. So if you’re having trouble fitting in them (they also offer mega versions which is wider) you can essentially keep the length the same but have more room in the shoe.

As I’ve said before, I have a background in alpine ski racing boot fit and that’s a much more difficult fit than a cycling shoes but the principles are the same. Using insoles you can manipulate, sometimes slight heel wedges, and experimenting with the shoes makes it a lot more likely you can get a decent fit that’s good for a lot of miles. If I can make it work with my feet, it’s very probable that we can get the OP fit as well but it’s not going to be a ‘walk in the store, pull a box off the rack, put them on and walk out” kind of thing.

JohnJ80

You’re welcome to come and coach me on pedaling technique anytime. Send a resume first, though, ok?

niknak

That's my point. You had to experiment with shoes and insoles to find something that works for you. That costs more than a pair of flat pedals. I've done the same experiments but haven't found anything that works yet. But flat pedals work great.

Which cycling shoes have you found to be wider in the toe box? I've tried Sidi megas and Shimano wide shoes. They both still have a ballerina point to them, but then the heel cup isn't as snug. My feet aren't even that wide, it's just my toes that don't like being squished.

In the photo, you can see my nice wide toe box Altras on the left versus the Shimano RX8 wide version in the center versus some Specialized XC shoe. All three are one size over my actual foot size. The Shimano shoes are silly narrow for a "wide" shoe. Look at how pointy they are! Nobody's foot is shaped like that

If Altra made a cycling shoe, I'd be in love

djb

to add my personal experience with clipless vs non.
I started using spd back in the early 90s, and I found even back then, that I could climb hills often one gear higher with the spd shoes on vs platforms. That sold me on them, and yes, shoe stiffness is a factor too, but riding a few of my bikes with platform pedals sometimes always shows up how my spd has an advantage, and coming from a touring perspective, I'll take any percentage more , it adds up over a day.

plus Im not a strong strong rider, so I'll take what I can get.

but hey, you prefer platforms, thats cool. It aint a contest .

JohnJ80

Bike shoes aren’t that tough. You can’t really modify them like you can ski boots so if they don’t fit after you try some insoles, then you don’t buy them. Too, find a quality LBS with a good bike fitter and they’ll help.

I’ve done the Sidi half size thing and that worked for me. My normal size is a 44 and I got 44.5 for the higher volume upper. Then I got some thin SOLE insoles and fit them to my arch and metatarsal arch and they work great.

I have a pair of Pearl Izumi x-alp for touring and they’re actually very roomy in the toe box. My wife has a pair too and she has a very wide foot at the front and a narrow heel. there’s a lot of shoes that are being built like this now. Giro HV Terraduro is another one which is being replaced this year with a Boa version.

you might also try a Sidi mega in the half size larger. That should have plenty of room. My son wears EE or EEE and they fit him.

you can often fix heels that slip by adding a slight wedge under the insole - just enough to put you in contact with the top of the heel cup. There’s a wedge set I buy from Amazon that are $8 (cheap, not sure of the price) and they come apart so you can add in wedges a few kilometers at a time all the up to 6mm. That often works really well if you buy a larger shoe for width and put a thicker insole in to take up volume. Add the wedges of its loose in the foot.

this is stuff a good bike fitter should know. I learned it all fitting ski boots so it’s not a big secret. I did not have to buy lots of shoes to figure it out.

pretty much any athletic shoe will be improved by a good insole. You can also experiment around with ones from other shoes. It’s not that hard and it has a big impact on comfort and fit. And you can do it all before you mount the cleats.

pcunite

Yes, that would be fantastic! For me, the Lake MX1, in the Wide model, actually felt pretty good so far. Trying them on, I was really concerned, but after getting on the bike, they seemed to "widen" up. Strange, but that's how it felt. The leather uppers may have give perhaps.

niknak

I actually prefer clipless for most riding. My feet however prefer flats. That's why I recommended the OP try flats.

djb

hey it's all good.
re hot spots and foot comfort in general, it's all about fit. I've found for me some brands fit me better than others, and even some socks of mine are better for a long day.

MarcusT

I agree. It would seem a hindrance if you want to stop and hike down to that waterfall with cleated shoes or the risk factor on steps.
For touring, the 5-10s are a great shoe until I got caught in the rain and they soaked up water like a sponge and took 2 days in the summer sun to dry out. I like solid rubber on my sole. Now, using the Salomon speedcross.

Cougrrcj

I wear a US men's 7.5 EEE. I have VERY high arches, (more like hooves!) resulting in VERY wide but short feet... IMPOSSIBLE to find 'road' shoes to fit. Even MTB shoes don't fit. So I'm forced to either wear my extra-wide work shoes or extra-wide 'cross-trainer' athletic shoes -- or my old Specialized touring shoes ( with reinforced shanks for stiffness) - on wide pedals...

CargoDane

Just more nonsense. The pedal you choose doesn't make you able to put out 30 percent more power, regardless of your beliefs or "measurements".

More nonsense. You think that by constructing the strawman that "Unless you come teach me, I am right" somehow actually makes you right with your over the top claim that by switching to clipless from platforms, your power output increased 30 percent - on the pedal choice alone.

Edit: As for the "resume": I'm not the one making outrageous claims about power output increases. So how about you did your resume, or at least posted some evidence of your power output measurements. And also a video of your technique on both types of pedals.

I struggle to think how one can even achieve a 20-22 percent loss by going to platforms - unless that person was really bad at keeping the foot on the pedal and fell off every half rotation, and/or the bearings were completely shot or something.

How about you coming around to my place and show me how I can put out 30 percent more power by simply switching from my pinned platforms? Not interested? I'd love to see your superior technique, since you're claiming you're good with platforms, yet could achieve a 30 percent increase in power output by merely switching pedals.

JohnJ80

jist knock it off. Go back and read all I wrote about this and figure it out. Here is exactly what I’m getting at with you - sarcastic stretching of what I said and putting word in my mouth. Work on the reading comprehension and get back to me.

MntnMan62

I have Time ATAC Alium pedals on both my road and mountain bikes. And I've been using the same pair of Specialized mountain bike shoes for both road and mountain for years and years. I'm about to buy a new pair of shoes and the Specialized Recon 2.0 mountain bike shoes are calling my name. I have no desire to have two separate pairs of shoes for essentially the same thing.