Rivendell needs help.
#301
Senior Member
I think the explosion of custom US builders might be cutting into the market a bit too, there's lots of awesome framebuilders that can make whatever you want and the prices aren't that far off a Rivendell in some cases... and you can get a nice lugged bike with disc brakes if that's your jam.
#302
Senior Member
You guys should go read some of the old Rivendell Readers from the early years...they are all posted on RBW owners group. I just looked at #2 and 3 and there are pages and pages from Grant lamenting about how difficult is is and wondering about how they’ll ever make it. This was 1995 and has been an ongoing plot twist since day one!
#303
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I read "Just Ride" about the same time I found Bike Forums and crushed on bikes as a hobby. I was on board then - retro premium mountain bikes and extra-relaxed sport touring bikes, sometimes with high handlebars, and a nice stepthrough. It would have been cool to grab one of the tandems if I'd had the scratch. I don't mind if it's made in Taiwan, I don't think their torch gas or skills are any better or worse than Americans.
I just haven't been able to follow what he's up to since then with the Clem, which just seems ill proportioned (tho improved now with the straightened seat stays), and now especially the kid seat bike. How do you convince people "most bikes are just too short to work well" when in fact those seats are designed to work with Dutch bikes that you can buy right now without waiting for a Riv preorder? How many of his customers will have 1-2yo children, the only age at which the front seat works, at just the right time when the bikes come in? How many new parents have two or three grand to build up the bike? Jeez. Tandems are a tough enough sell without doing this to yourself.
I just haven't been able to follow what he's up to since then with the Clem, which just seems ill proportioned (tho improved now with the straightened seat stays), and now especially the kid seat bike. How do you convince people "most bikes are just too short to work well" when in fact those seats are designed to work with Dutch bikes that you can buy right now without waiting for a Riv preorder? How many of his customers will have 1-2yo children, the only age at which the front seat works, at just the right time when the bikes come in? How many new parents have two or three grand to build up the bike? Jeez. Tandems are a tough enough sell without doing this to yourself.
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#304
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Maybe incongruous but whatever that lower tube joint is, fillet brazing or welding, it's not like anything I've seen on bikes from Surly, SOMA, VO, etc. Not that there's anything wrong with those other bikes.
#305
Senior Member
Fillet joints take a lot of time, effort and experience to do correctly. They are a thing of beauty and in my estimation are the essence of a perfectly joined frame.
#310
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Taiwan is officially known as the Republic of China
you can't possibly think ROC and PRC are the same thing, so why post this?
ROC hasnt held control of China for something like 70 years now.
when a frame is built in Taiwan, it states in was made in Taiwan. It doesn't state 'made in republic of China'.
#311
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Rivendell's insistence on double top tubes on their larger sizes is what made me go custom with another builder. IMHO Grant's designs peeked with the Rambouillet and the musa Homer. The Roadini is nice but sizes were limited.
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#312
Senior Member
Yeah, I think the double top tube thing is a bit much, and I also need large sizes. It'd be ok if it was on a model or two, but almost all the frames have it. That's partly why I went with a custom Mercian road touring frame instead of a Rivendell.
#313
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I bought a custom Rivendell in 2000. I went into my local bike shop armed with Eugene Sloane's book, hoping to find a touring bike a la his Alex Singer. I was so disappointed with what was available. I let them talk me into a hybrid since it seemed my only other two choices were ultra-light racing bikes or full-on mountain bikes. That hybrid was one of the worst bikes I had ever owned, and it lead me to consider the internet for the first time as a source of information. I found Rivendell by looking for builders of classic touring bikes.
The thing is, my Rivendell is not something I need to replace, probably ever. It is sturdy, rides great, is lovely to look at, and does everything. At eighteen years old, it's just getting worn in.
I believe, in general, in what Grant is doing with Rivendell because I believe in making things that are built to last. Our world is too full of throwaway crap. (My computer's browsers keep warning me they are no longer secure, but they won't update themselves because the operating system is too old. It's a MacBook Pro from 2007 or so. What the hey? To me, that is really not that old at all. Now that's a business model.) How do you build a business building things that do not need replacement? Also, if I need some incidentals - say chain lube - I would like to support them, but it doubles the cost to pay for the shipping. I head to my local bike shop or, admittedly, Amazon, if I feel pressed for time. Maybe they should have some sort of subscription model where they ship for free, though of course, that never sounds like a good idea business wise. How do you make money if the item you are shipping costs more to ship than you make from the item? I don't mind his complaining. He really does seem to be trying to do something good and worthwhile, though he may have done better to stick to a higher-end niche with fewer products. He could still carry Carradice instead of doing his own bags for example. But, I'm not a business person, so I don't really know what I'm talking about.
I admit, as well, I have never found a model name appealing since they were banned from using Tolkien characters. A Legolas or a Quickbeam sound nice to me. I'm not so fond of A. Homer Hilsen or Gus Boots Wilson, but that's just me.
The thing is, my Rivendell is not something I need to replace, probably ever. It is sturdy, rides great, is lovely to look at, and does everything. At eighteen years old, it's just getting worn in.
I believe, in general, in what Grant is doing with Rivendell because I believe in making things that are built to last. Our world is too full of throwaway crap. (My computer's browsers keep warning me they are no longer secure, but they won't update themselves because the operating system is too old. It's a MacBook Pro from 2007 or so. What the hey? To me, that is really not that old at all. Now that's a business model.) How do you build a business building things that do not need replacement? Also, if I need some incidentals - say chain lube - I would like to support them, but it doubles the cost to pay for the shipping. I head to my local bike shop or, admittedly, Amazon, if I feel pressed for time. Maybe they should have some sort of subscription model where they ship for free, though of course, that never sounds like a good idea business wise. How do you make money if the item you are shipping costs more to ship than you make from the item? I don't mind his complaining. He really does seem to be trying to do something good and worthwhile, though he may have done better to stick to a higher-end niche with fewer products. He could still carry Carradice instead of doing his own bags for example. But, I'm not a business person, so I don't really know what I'm talking about.
I admit, as well, I have never found a model name appealing since they were banned from using Tolkien characters. A Legolas or a Quickbeam sound nice to me. I'm not so fond of A. Homer Hilsen or Gus Boots Wilson, but that's just me.
#314
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#315
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I read "Just Ride" about the same time I found Bike Forums and crushed on bikes as a hobby. I was on board then - retro premium mountain bikes and extra-relaxed sport touring bikes, sometimes with high handlebars, and a nice stepthrough. It would have been cool to grab one of the tandems if I'd had the scratch. I don't mind if it's made in Taiwan, I don't think their torch gas or skills are any better or worse than Americans.
Likes For radroad:
#317
Senior Member
I bought a custom Rivendell in 2000. I went into my local bike shop armed with Eugene Sloane's book, hoping to find a touring bike a la his Alex Singer. I was so disappointed with what was available. I let them talk me into a hybrid since it seemed my only other two choices were ultra-light racing bikes or full-on mountain bikes. That hybrid was one of the worst bikes I had ever owned, and it lead me to consider the internet for the first time as a source of information. I found Rivendell by looking for builders of classic touring bikes.
The thing is, my Rivendell is not something I need to replace, probably ever. It is sturdy, rides great, is lovely to look at, and does everything. At eighteen years old, it's just getting worn in.
I believe, in general, in what Grant is doing with Rivendell because I believe in making things that are built to last. Our world is too full of throwaway crap. (My computer's browsers keep warning me they are no longer secure, but they won't update themselves because the operating system is too old. It's a MacBook Pro from 2007 or so. What the hey? To me, that is really not that old at all. Now that's a business model.) How do you build a business building things that do not need replacement? Also, if I need some incidentals - say chain lube - I would like to support them, but it doubles the cost to pay for the shipping. I head to my local bike shop or, admittedly, Amazon, if I feel pressed for time. Maybe they should have some sort of subscription model where they ship for free, though of course, that never sounds like a good idea business wise. How do you make money if the item you are shipping costs more to ship than you make from the item? I don't mind his complaining. He really does seem to be trying to do something good and worthwhile, though he may have done better to stick to a higher-end niche with fewer products. He could still carry Carradice instead of doing his own bags for example. But, I'm not a business person, so I don't really know what I'm talking about.
I admit, as well, I have never found a model name appealing since they were banned from using Tolkien characters. A Legolas or a Quickbeam sound nice to me. I'm not so fond of A. Homer Hilsen or Gus Boots Wilson, but that's just me.
The thing is, my Rivendell is not something I need to replace, probably ever. It is sturdy, rides great, is lovely to look at, and does everything. At eighteen years old, it's just getting worn in.
I believe, in general, in what Grant is doing with Rivendell because I believe in making things that are built to last. Our world is too full of throwaway crap. (My computer's browsers keep warning me they are no longer secure, but they won't update themselves because the operating system is too old. It's a MacBook Pro from 2007 or so. What the hey? To me, that is really not that old at all. Now that's a business model.) How do you build a business building things that do not need replacement? Also, if I need some incidentals - say chain lube - I would like to support them, but it doubles the cost to pay for the shipping. I head to my local bike shop or, admittedly, Amazon, if I feel pressed for time. Maybe they should have some sort of subscription model where they ship for free, though of course, that never sounds like a good idea business wise. How do you make money if the item you are shipping costs more to ship than you make from the item? I don't mind his complaining. He really does seem to be trying to do something good and worthwhile, though he may have done better to stick to a higher-end niche with fewer products. He could still carry Carradice instead of doing his own bags for example. But, I'm not a business person, so I don't really know what I'm talking about.
I admit, as well, I have never found a model name appealing since they were banned from using Tolkien characters. A Legolas or a Quickbeam sound nice to me. I'm not so fond of A. Homer Hilsen or Gus Boots Wilson, but that's just me.
GP is the last of the mohicans I suppose. But he's not going out in a blaze of glory. He's just slowly being ignored, like the rest of the bike industry. He did it his way, and nobody cared. At least not enough to buy his bikes.
GP is a likable, intelligent and principled guy. Unfortunately, bicycles to him are a religion rather than a tool or a business. Let's see if he can adjust to life as someone else's employee. I just can't see him as a three time loser. But I doubt he knows any other way at this point.
BTW, I have a 15 year old Gary Fisher hardtail. Still a fantastic bike.
#318
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I think I understand exactly what a Rivendell is nowadays.
It's designed to ride on Shell Ridge (near Walnut Creek) wearing street clothes with a hatchet in your front basket. Oh, and if you ride it on College Avenue in Berkeley, hipsters will whistle at you and say "nice bike!"
It's designed to ride on Shell Ridge (near Walnut Creek) wearing street clothes with a hatchet in your front basket. Oh, and if you ride it on College Avenue in Berkeley, hipsters will whistle at you and say "nice bike!"
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#319
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I think I understand exactly what a Rivendell is nowadays.
It's designed to ride on Shell Ridge (near Walnut Creek) wearing street clothes with a hatchet in your front basket. Oh, and if you ride it on College Avenue in Berkeley, hipsters will whistle at you and say "nice bike!"
It's designed to ride on Shell Ridge (near Walnut Creek) wearing street clothes with a hatchet in your front basket. Oh, and if you ride it on College Avenue in Berkeley, hipsters will whistle at you and say "nice bike!"
#320
Senior Member
I think I understand exactly what a Rivendell is nowadays.
It's designed to ride on Shell Ridge (near Walnut Creek) wearing street clothes with a hatchet in your front basket. Oh, and if you ride it on College Avenue in Berkeley, hipsters will whistle at you and say "nice bike!"
It's designed to ride on Shell Ridge (near Walnut Creek) wearing street clothes with a hatchet in your front basket. Oh, and if you ride it on College Avenue in Berkeley, hipsters will whistle at you and say "nice bike!"
#321
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On the contrary, I’d say. People cared so much that they started to carry out his vision on their own terms, but shorn of the bizarre Victorian whimsy that festoons the latter-day Riv frames.
Grant is a victim of his own success, or to be more precise, the successful dissemination of his ideas, since the days of those B’stone catalogues and creatures like the XO-1. Others have indeed been paying attention and taking notes. And not just boutique builders. The big brands all now carry “gravel bikes” or “adventure bikes.” Petersen is far from the only influence behind this, but he has been an unusually forceful spokesperson for a set of values, including the idea that an all-rounder, non-specialist bike for “you and me” can and should be as beautiful and well-made as a race-oriented bike.
The force of his voice goes hand in hand with the stubborn Quixotic streak that has led him to stick, beyond a fruitful point, with imprinting upon Riv bikes his own “weird” personal aesthetic preferences and nomenclature, even what seems at times like quirkiness for its own sake. That does not a sound business model make, but it’s all of a piece: the same stubbornness that led him to enact and propagate his principles leads him to propagate double top tubes as well as names seemingly pulled out of the random pages of yellowed tomes behind the glass case of an antiquarian bookseller...or something like that.
Grant is a victim of his own success, or to be more precise, the successful dissemination of his ideas, since the days of those B’stone catalogues and creatures like the XO-1. Others have indeed been paying attention and taking notes. And not just boutique builders. The big brands all now carry “gravel bikes” or “adventure bikes.” Petersen is far from the only influence behind this, but he has been an unusually forceful spokesperson for a set of values, including the idea that an all-rounder, non-specialist bike for “you and me” can and should be as beautiful and well-made as a race-oriented bike.
The force of his voice goes hand in hand with the stubborn Quixotic streak that has led him to stick, beyond a fruitful point, with imprinting upon Riv bikes his own “weird” personal aesthetic preferences and nomenclature, even what seems at times like quirkiness for its own sake. That does not a sound business model make, but it’s all of a piece: the same stubbornness that led him to enact and propagate his principles leads him to propagate double top tubes as well as names seemingly pulled out of the random pages of yellowed tomes behind the glass case of an antiquarian bookseller...or something like that.
#324
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That Homer Hilson is a nice looking bike. I went to look at the Riv bikes the other day to see if they still sold bikes like that. But each model is represented by a head badge on the main frame/bike page. I didn't have enough energy to click through on all of them. Okay, I went back and there is a different page with all their models. One thing I notice is that there aren't any low trail or even mid-trail examples.
Sad to say, every time I hear they have a new bike I go look at it and it looks like a NHABS show bike reject. And by that I mean they have a lot of ornamental details but the proportions are wrong. It doesn't help that so many have double top tubes, which is just silly. It's hard to differentiate yourself nowadays, but wonky designs is not the way to do it.
Sad to say, every time I hear they have a new bike I go look at it and it looks like a NHABS show bike reject. And by that I mean they have a lot of ornamental details but the proportions are wrong. It doesn't help that so many have double top tubes, which is just silly. It's hard to differentiate yourself nowadays, but wonky designs is not the way to do it.
Last edited by unterhausen; 02-15-19 at 09:20 PM.
#325
Senior Member
On the contrary...The big brands all now carry “gravel bikes” or “adventure bikes.” Petersen is far from the only influence behind this, but he has been an unusually forceful spokesperson for a set of values, including the idea that an all-rounder, non-specialist bike for “you and me” can and should be as beautiful and well-made as a race-oriented bike.
Many have made this argument with no evidence. Here's what really happened:
1. the emergence of disc brakes allowed for wider tires. Now that discs are standard, riders figured out on their own that wider tires are more comfortable with little meaningful drop in efficiency
2. trek and especially specialized took road suspension seriously, pushing road full suspension to very affordable levels ($2.5K in specialized's case).
3. once riders started to install wider tires on their own, manufacturers began to recognize that they could create a new niche. For example, the secteur began as an alu Roubaix, then morphed into an alu Roubaix with discs, then the diverge with discs, and finally the diverge with discs and future shock.
4. There have been several complementary developments, such as redshift shock stop stem and now seat post, along with giant's d-fuse seat post. These products work very well, with tiny, trivial weight penalties. Add to that lauf's fork and later frame, along with cannondale's own line of front forks for gravel.
I guarantee none of these companies took their cues to develop suspension, spec discs or market gravel from grant.
Also note that the growth in popularity of crossover vehicles in the automotive industry. Were they inspired by grant as well? Gravel bikes exist because they are fun and more importantly, comfortable all-rounders. When I was in college, mtb's were taking off in popularity, and they were commonly used as commuters. Bike riders want comfortable bikes, and wider tires are more comfortable. Rider demand for comfortable road bikes (gravel bikes now labeled), along with the tech developments to make it possible (discs, suspension), made the gravel niche possible.
Grant is in no way shape or form responsible for the gravel bike niche that can be documented. The bicycling industry created the gravel bike niche on it's own, and that's all right. Meanwhile Grant's bike sales continue to tank with no end in sight. If there were demand for gravel bikes of the sort that grant sells, his market share should be increasing since all of his bikes are designed as all-rounders. Instead, the opposite is happening. Gravel bike sales have taken off while Riv, as Grant himself has announced is soon going out of business.
Last edited by radroad; 02-15-19 at 10:16 PM.