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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

clubman 02-07-19 08:26 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20784421)

Probably this has been discussed before in this thread, but, why suited (that implied "just") to the commuter cyclist?

I'd think for the simple fact it had more gears in a wide range. SA hubs slowly (quickly?) became less competitive after the popular pre war races like the Land's End to John 'o Groats. They were marketed as touring and commuting hubs after the war and derailleurs became the new must-have race technology.

paulb_in_bkln 02-07-19 08:50 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20784439)
I'd think for the simple fact it had more gears in a wide range. SA hubs slowly (quickly?) became less competitive after the popular pre war races like the Land's End to John 'o Groats. They were marketed as touring and commuting hubs after the war and derailleurs became the new must-have race technology.

If I could wave a magic wand at my AW hubs I would leave the 1st to 2nd jump as is but bring the 2nd to 3rd jump down somewhat. (I would have a very powerful magic wand.) Does the FW fill in that wide gap between the AW's positions 2 and 3?

BigChief 02-07-19 09:54 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20784466)
If I could wave a magic wand at my AW hubs I would leave the 1st to 2nd jump as is but bring the 2nd to 3rd jump down somewhat. (I would have a very powerful magic wand.) Does the FW fill in that wide gap between the AW's positions 2 and 3?

What you need is a S5 hub. With the left bell crank disengaged, you have a medium range 3 speed that shifts as smoothly as any AW. When you engage the bell crank, You get a super wide range 3 speed. 2nd stays the same but you get a low granny and a super tall overdrive.
S5 in medium range Low -21% normal 0 high +26.6% In wide range mode...low -33% normal 0 High +50%
The AW is Low -25% normal 0 High +33%

gster 02-08-19 06:01 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20784439)
I'd think for the simple fact it had more gears in a wide range. SA hubs slowly (quickly?) became less competitive after the popular pre war races like the Land's End to John 'o Groats. They were marketed as touring and commuting hubs after the war and derailleurs became the new must-have race technology.

Despite our affection for these hubs, they can slip out of gear on occasion, especially under pressure.
I imagine over time that the cable can stretch. This is fine when you're just riding along (commuting).I often have to pull over for a minor adjustment at the indicator chain, even on a bike that's been shifting fine.
Under racing conditions, this slip could prove disastrous if you were off the seat and "standing" on the pedals.
Ouch!

clubman 02-08-19 07:18 AM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20784466)
If I could wave a magic wand at my AW hubs I would leave the 1st to 2nd jump as is but bring the 2nd to 3rd jump down somewhat. (I would have a very powerful magic wand.) Does the FW fill in that wide gap between the AW's positions 2 and 3?

Have a look here. There's a slight reduction between the first two hops and then an even taller 4th gear. Some 5 speeds were the same pattern with an even taller 5th added on.

Dan Burkhart 02-08-19 07:29 AM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20784466)
If I could wave a magic wand at my AW hubs I would leave the 1st to 2nd jump as is but bring the 2nd to 3rd jump down somewhat. (I would have a very powerful magic wand.) Does the FW fill in that wide gap between the AW's positions 2 and 3?

Strong magic required here. By very nature of it's design, this is a physical impossibility.1st and third use the same gear with the power flow reversed. In first the power flows from the ring gear to the planet carrier, and in 3rd, it flows from the planet carrier to the ring gear.

carfreefamily 02-08-19 09:53 AM


Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart (Post 20784768)
Strong magic required here. By very nature of it's design, this is a physical impossibility.1st and third use the same gear with the power flow reversed. In first the power flows from the ring gear to the planet carrier, and in 3rd, it flows from the planet carrier to the ring gear.

Even though I had my AG hub completely in pieces, I cannot quite visualize how the clutch changes the way the hub engages. In high gear, it was clear that the planet carrier was being engaged. In second, the clutch lifts off the planet carrier, but what is engaged at that point, and when it is pulled further out, what is the clutch doing?

Dan Burkhart 02-08-19 10:17 AM


Originally Posted by carfreefamily (Post 20785009)
Even though I had my AG hub completely in pieces, I cannot quite visualize how the clutch changes the way the hub engages. In high gear, it was clear that the planet carrier was being engaged. In second, the clutch lifts off the planet carrier, but what is engaged at that point, and when it is pulled further out, what is the clutch doing?

In first and second gear, the star clutch is driving the ring gear. This video explains it. Apologies for the poor audio level. Some day, I will do a remake with a voice over.

nlerner 02-08-19 10:19 AM

Okay, not a 3-speed and not an IGH, but this 23" 5-speed Sprite on Boston's CL seems remarkably well preserved:

https://images.craigslist.org/01313_...N3_600x450.jpg

https://boston.craigslist.org/nos/bi...809349183.html

BigChief 02-08-19 10:27 AM


Originally Posted by carfreefamily (Post 20785009)
Even though I had my AG hub completely in pieces, I cannot quite visualize how the clutch changes the way the hub engages. In high gear, it was clear that the planet carrier was being engaged. In second, the clutch lifts off the planet carrier, but what is engaged at that point, and when it is pulled further out, what is the clutch doing?

Here's a pretty good video on that subject.


gster 02-08-19 07:48 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20784466)
If I could wave a magic wand at my AW hubs I would leave the 1st to 2nd jump as is but bring the 2nd to 3rd jump down somewhat. (I would have a very powerful magic wand.) Does the FW fill in that wide gap between the AW's positions 2 and 3?

This is where a rear cog swap helps..
There're only 3 speeds to play with....

Ballenxj 02-08-19 08:28 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20785084)
Here's a pretty good video on that subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6v5K-2zWMI

Very interesting. So second gear is 1 to 1, and third is overdriven? This explains why some folk install a larger chain sprocket.

BigChief 02-08-19 08:32 PM

Nice c.1950 23" Sports in Vermont. Can't see much in these photos. Missing original chainguard and pedals. Rims and saddle look good though. Good looking bike.

https://vermont.craigslist.org/bik/d...799705338.html

Slowride79 02-08-19 09:48 PM


Originally Posted by sd5782 (Post 20779365)
Well, thanks to you enablers, I am tearing into the 1964 Huffeigh Sportsman now. Got the cotters out with a modified chain breaker, and even got the crank out. Rust and crud inside. Good call I think on disassembly. I want to start with some grease, and in later years oil down the seat tube. After seeing the axle, it would seem that for oil to get to the bearings, one would be advised to put the bike on its side and work pedals, and then the other side. I think I may get the park tool HCW-11 so as not to have to use a punch and hammer again.

Yes, one pedal was quite stiff so that is apart now. Maybe take the steering head bearings out tomorrow. Can the rear hub bearings be serviced without taking the 3-speed mechanism apart? A bit challenging working on a 50+ year old bike, but a good winter project.

go on YouTube and search for bikeman4you schwinn racer restoration; in one of videos he repacks SA Aw hub bearings without tearing apart 3 speed transmission.

Slowride79 02-08-19 09:51 PM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 20785073)
Okay, not a 3-speed and not an IGH, but this 23" 5-speed Sprite on Boston's CL seems remarkably well preserved:

https://images.craigslist.org/01313_...N3_600x450.jpg

https://boston.craigslist.org/nos/bi...809349183.html

I have the exact same in 21" frame ; that looks in great shape and very reasonable price; would get if I was near and didn't already have one. If you have hills that SA AW can't handle but like sports 'This is your bike.

gster 02-09-19 08:33 AM

As reliable and simple these bikes might be, there are a lot of details that need to be right for them to work properly.
In particular, the shifting system.
I have an unmolested Suberebe in the garage that I use as my "control" for figuring out cable lengths and routing..
A nice graceful sweep of the cable from the trigger to the stop certainly helps.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ec3b460990.jpg
The original cables came in different lengths depending on their application. I often see a bike with a shorter cable installed that clearly is too tight.
Both for function as well as aesthetics.

paulb_in_bkln 02-09-19 08:34 AM


Originally Posted by sd5782 (Post 20779365)
Can the rear hub bearings be serviced without taking the 3-speed mechanism apart? A bit challenging working on a 50+ year old bike, but a good winter project.

Taking the old hub apart, getting it completely clean like new, and then reassembling is one of the most satisfying parts of owning one of these!

gster 02-09-19 09:19 AM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20786361)
Taking the old hub apart, getting it completely clean like new, and then reassembling is one of the most satisfying parts of owning one of these!

At first, I was hesitant to take one apart but finally took the plunge. The posted rebuild video really helps. Community bike shops will usually have a hub for a small fee ($5.00) that you can practice on, although they are easier to get apart when laced to a rim.

3speedslow 02-09-19 09:19 AM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 20785073)
Okay, not a 3-speed and not an IGH, but this 23" 5-speed Sprite on Boston's CL seems remarkably well preserved:

https://images.craigslist.org/01313_...N3_600x450.jpg

https://boston.craigslist.org/nos/bi...809349183.html

That is a nice survivor! It could be changed between a 3 or 5 speed with another rear wheel and gear changer if you were so inclined. Terrific it still has the bag and saddle. Wonderful chaingaurd too.

sd5782 02-09-19 10:34 AM

Eventually
 

Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20786361)
Taking the old hub apart, getting it completely clean like new, and then reassembling is one of the most satisfying parts of owning one of these!

Eventually I will service the hub. A lot to do so far with this 64 to really bring it into half way decent riding condition.

gster 02-09-19 08:07 PM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 20785073)
Okay, not a 3-speed and not an IGH, but this 23" 5-speed Sprite on Boston's CL seems remarkably well preserved:

https://images.craigslist.org/01313_...N3_600x450.jpg

https://boston.craigslist.org/nos/bi...809349183.html

Hey! That's a some crazy brake cable on that bike!

thumpism 02-10-19 07:09 AM

Nice older 23" Sports, but it looks like that Brooks is about to give out.

https://richmond.craigslist.org/bik/...815697431.html

1960's Raleigh Sport 3speed bike english - $75 (Chesterfield, VA)


https://images.craigslist.org/00j0j_...XY_600x450.jpg

https://images.craigslist.org/00M0M_...wL_600x450.jpg


bicycle type: cruiser
frame size: 26''
wheel size: 26 in Really cool vintage 60's 3 speed English cruiser in great condition! 26inch classic bike that's a good size for someone 5ft 5 to 6ft tall. Needs a new inner-tube for the front wheel(only a few bucks). Call show contact info
to come by. 5502 Sherman Terrace.

markk900 02-10-19 08:41 AM

Wish I was nearby - itís a nice looking bike but the wheels (rims) and pedals alone would be worth it to me. And yeah - that tear on the nose looks bad - I had one I bought used like that thinking it would last - first ride I ended up sitting on the saddle frame within minutes. Good thing we have @rhm around to help us out of situations like that!

thumpism 02-10-19 08:46 AM

I have facilitated in the past and am probably doomed to do so again.

paulb_in_bkln 02-10-19 08:46 AM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 20787525)
Nice older 23" Sports, but it looks like that Brooks is about to give out.

https://richmond.craigslist.org/bik/...815697431.html

1960's Raleigh Sport 3speed bike english - $75 (Chesterfield, VA)

bicycle type: cruiser
frame size: 26''
wheel size: 26 in Really cool vintage 60's 3 speed English cruiser in great condition! 26inch classic bike that's a good size for someone 5ft 5 to 6ft tall. Needs a new inner-tube for the front wheel(only a few bucks). Call show contact info
to come by. 5502 Sherman Terrace.

Here in NYC: $200 - $250.

markk900 02-10-19 08:52 AM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 20787623)
I have facilitated in the past and am probably doomed to do so again.

Not sure if you were offering but I am in Canada so thanks but no thanks. That $75 would quickly become several hundred!

but awfully kind of you to jump in like that!:thumb:

Road Fan 02-10-19 09:12 AM

Anybody here have good results putting a square taper spindle into the OEM Raleigh/Brit 26 mm BB cups of a 1952 Rudge Aero Special? Are there combinations that do not work? I'm daydreaming of a vintage TA spindle with a Stronglight 49D or a vintage TA Cyclotourist crankset. I'd either use 48 tooth single chainring or a some kind of granny crankset, 48/32 or 48/28, perhaps. I would need to add a front derailleur, and some sort of chain tensioner in the rear.

Another opportunity might be an Avocet spindle with an Avocet crankarm set with a single or double (big with granny).

Known BB incompatibilities: 71 mm width versus 68 mm standard; 26 threads per inch original theading versus 24 threads per inch "modern" threading.

Goals:
get clean bearings into the BB,
eliminate the future hassle of non-destructive cotter extraction,
save some weight,
target 170mm crank arm,
option to provide for a granny gear with AW or FG hub.

paulb_in_bkln 02-10-19 10:16 AM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 20787672)
Anybody here have good results putting a square taper spindle into the OEM Raleigh/Brit 26 mm BB cups of a 1952 Rudge Aero Special? Are there combinations that do not work? I'm daydreaming of a vintage TA spindle with a Stronglight 49D or a vintage TA Cyclotourist crankset. I'd either use 48 tooth single chainring or a some kind of granny crankset, 48/32 or 48/28, perhaps. I would need to add a front derailleur, and some sort of chain tensioner in the rear.

Another opportunity might be an Avocet spindle with an Avocet crankarm set with a single or double (big with granny).

Known BB incompatibilities: 71 mm width versus 68 mm standard; 26 threads per inch original theading versus 24 threads per inch "modern" threading.

Goals:
get clean bearings into the BB,
eliminate the future hassle of non-destructive cotter extraction,
save some weight,
target 170mm crank arm,
option to provide for a granny gear with AW or FG hub.

I'm sure you'll find the spindle. For my Peugeot mixte AW + cotterless conversion, I gave up and bought a cartridge BB from Velo Orange. It arrived last night and although 'spensive it's a nice piece. Light, also seems great quality, plus the man at VO threw in a couple allen-key fixing bolts at no extra charge.

The BB is going to decide the destiny of the (no longer) derelict ladies' Sports that followed me home a few days ago. It will rotate maybe an eighth of a turn or less. So the first job is get off at least the left side crank and find out what's going on in there.

Road Fan 02-10-19 04:52 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20787750)
I'm sure you'll find the spindle. For my Peugeot mixte AW + cotterless conversion, I gave up and bought a cartridge BB from Velo Orange. It arrived last night and although 'spensive it's a nice piece. Light, also seems great quality, plus the man at VO threw in a couple allen-key fixing bolts at no extra charge.

The BB is going to decide the destiny of the (no longer) derelict ladies' Sports that followed me home a few days ago. It will rotate maybe an eighth of a turn or less. So the first job is get off at least the left side crank and find out what's going on in there.

That's about how much mine turns. I'm trying first to get all the old parts out and into a degrease bath, then see how badly worn they are.

Do you know the left and right stub lengths of the VO BB?

paulb_in_bkln 02-10-19 11:00 PM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 20788317)
That's about how much mine turns. I'm trying first to get all the old parts out and into a degrease bath, then see how badly worn they are.

Do you know the left and right stub lengths of the VO BB?

18 mm each side. That's with the 110 mm spindle.


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