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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

Greg R 10-27-21 03:50 PM

Yeah this pre-dates "country of origin" trade rules. I've noticed too the build quality seems a tad rough. Cuts for clamps such as the seat post have large burrs, the tube sockets don't have fillets from brazing but gaps at the top of the socket to tube. Over all it's good and rides well before the tear down maintenance but not quite the craftsmanship I see in much earlier Raleighs.

I saw a trade film of the Raleigh Works, man they really cranked the frames out just hammering them together in jigs. Then they went through a check station for straightness and then on to brazing. There were of lot women in the brazing line. The paint section was Wow! hand dipped in a paint tank no gloves! Must have been a good leveling paint. I would say the film was post-war 40s or early 50s

clubman 10-27-21 05:10 PM


Originally Posted by Greg R (Post 22286073)
The paint section was Wow! hand dipped in a paint tank no gloves! Must have been a good leveling paint. I would say the film was post-war 40s or early 50s

Yup,, that's a popular fave film here. Assuming that was a lead based paint, I wonder how long those guys survived after retirement. Or the cadmium platers in the Sturmey division. Or even chrome for that matter.

Anecdotally, as a teen, I worked summers in my step fathers liquid chemical plant. I worked in a tank farm and subdivided railway tank cars into 45 gallon drums. I inhaled ( thru a mask) but was splashed, soaked and permeated with so many hence-banned chemicals it's scary. Perchloroethylene, Chorethelene Nu, Methylene Chloride, Caustic soda, acetates, acetones, you name it. At 63, I'm surprised, I guess I don't have a predisposition to getting cancer from these products...yet.

dirtman 10-28-21 04:13 AM

I have a dozen or more Raleigh cranksets here, every one has 9/16" threads.
I did stumble on a few boxes of Raleigh look a like pedals a few years ago that were made in India, those turned out to be French threaded for some reason. They were copies of the older Raleigh pedals from the 50's but minus the actual Raleigh logo. The brand was three initials that I never did figure out what it stood for, only that they were labeled, in English, "Made in India, for sale in Thailand". I seem to remember the brand being OTP, but don't quote me. I found two and a half cases of them at a flea market in FL about 15 years ago for $10 total. I ended up having to go through every last box because not every box of pedals contained a matched pair, I had to pair up left and rights and ended up with more rights than lefts. They sold on fleabay fast though I think I ended up with 6 extra right pedals and 26 matched pair or so. I broke down the remaining right pedals and used the rubber blocks to repair a few other older pedals over the years.

I did have a Canadian sold Mikado 'Sports', which was an entry level type 10 speed road bike, which had SR cottered cranks on it, the bike was most likely from 1979 or 80. The cranks had 1/2 threads. When I got it, the right crank had the broken stub of the pedal axle in it, the left crank was stripped. It left here with two 9/16" pedals.

I had a small frame, single speed bike badged only as DERBY Austria. with an oddball set of aluminum Thompson style cranks that were threaded with the wrong threads on the wrong side. the right side had left hand pedal threads and the left had right hand threads. It was far from new when I had it, and it had apparently survived for many years of use like that before I found it in a lot of bikes from a local auction.

There are a good many oddities out there, and there's no telling sometimes how they came about, so nothing would surprise me when it comes to something having odd threads or mismatched parts. Bike companies also improvised as needed during the bike boom to keep production up, so if on a particular week they ran short of 9/16" pedal axles or pedals, I wouldn't put it past them to have threaded a few batches of cranks so they could use pedals from a different source just to keep up with production.
While I'd have to guess that was less likely with Raleigh bikes from England back then, they did have factories all over the world. Also keep in mind that tolerances change as tooling wears over time, so the thread fit on an early model is likely much tighter than that of a later model on any production run.

There's also the fact that threads can be cut at varying depths, the percentage of thread depth can vary, as can the angle of the cut.
My guess would be that if they're Raleigh cranks, chances are they're 9/16" threaded and the threads are either fouled with rust, or slightly damaged in some way.
When using a thread pitch gauge to compare 9/16x20 threads vs 14x1.25mm threads, its very hard to tell the difference in pitch, the two are very close, but they are different. As is the diameter difference. The difference in thread pitch is more visible in thread count over a longer section than just trying to compare the cut of 7 or 8 threads on crank or pedal axle.
I've had crank arms that were known to be French threaded which were well worn over the years that would almost take a 9/16" pedal without re-tapping the threads. The 9/16" pedal would thread in all but the last two threads or so by hand and likely wouldn't have taken much to thread in all the way yet they were marked 14x1.25.
I was never a big fan of just running a 9/16" tap through the 14mm crank arms, the difference in diameter is far less than the depth of the threads so about 1/4 of the threads end up being cut through existing threads at the end of the cut. It works most of the time but is not idea for hard use. Its likely fine though in a steel crank arm used on a three speed for pleasure riding.

thumpism 10-28-21 06:38 AM

How about a nice Raleigh ladies' Sports trike conversion?

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...03171097764954

https://scontent.fric1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...b1&oe=617FFC74

thumpism 10-28-21 06:56 AM

His 'n' hers Sportses for $150 in MI.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...97552820635329

https://scontent.fric1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...a6&oe=61A0B0A2

ConnoisseurEqua 10-28-21 01:28 PM

10 seems to be the answer.
All my Raleigh and Hercules have 10 at the front.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...19ec54b377.jpg


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8c09ff1e00.jpg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3d8f08f423.png

FBOATSB 10-28-21 03:01 PM


Originally Posted by ConnoisseurEqua (Post 22287293)

10 per side is what my '74 Sports had in it when it came into my possession although it was dry as as bone:cry:
Rolling smooth now.

gster 10-28-21 04:06 PM


Originally Posted by ConnoisseurEqua (Post 22287293)

Very helpful. Thx

Greg R 10-28-21 07:20 PM

This board ROCKS! Every bike I've acquired so far (except a Schwinn) has too many, too few, or no working balls. Thank you all for the posted info. I've got an order in for 100 of each size and gonna do it right.

Commando 10-29-21 02:03 AM

Hi All,

It looks like Sun Ringle may no longer be making 26 x 1 3/8 rims anymore. I checked their 2021 rim chart and there's no 590 listed.
I need to re-lace the rear wheel on my Raleigh Superbe and I'd been planning on using an NOS Brampton 3-speed, which is 40 hole. I'd like to use an aluminium rim, but it would seem options are almost nil.
Has anyone heard different, regarding CR18's?

SJS Cycles in the UK has their own branded rims, which I may have to go with if I can't find anything else, but freight is gonna kill me down here in Australia

1989Pre 10-29-21 04:10 AM


Originally Posted by The Trashman (Post 22261002)
Would these English 3 speeds potentially fit under the description of "English style road bikes"? There is someone up north saying they're selling them for $10-$20,but there are no images, so I can't tell if they mean actual road bikes, or 3 speeds.

What did you find out?

39cross 10-29-21 08:39 AM

Gratefully snipped from the above post:

Originally Posted by dirtman (Post 22286613)
There's also the fact that threads can be cut at varying depths, the percentage of thread depth can vary, as can the angle of the cut.
My guess would be that if they're Raleigh cranks, chances are they're 9/16" threaded and the threads are either fouled with rust, or slightly damaged in some way.
When using a thread pitch gauge to compare 9/16x20 threads vs 14x1.25mm threads, its very hard to tell the difference in pitch, the two are very close, but they are different. As is the diameter difference. The difference in thread pitch is more visible in thread count over a longer section than just trying to compare the cut of 7 or 8 threads on crank or pedal axle.
I've had crank arms that were known to be French threaded which were well worn over the years that would almost take a 9/16" pedal without re-tapping the threads. The 9/16" pedal would thread in all but the last two threads or so by hand and likely wouldn't have taken much to thread in all the way yet they were marked 14x1.25.
I was never a big fan of just running a 9/16" tap through the 14mm crank arms, the difference in diameter is far less than the depth of the threads so about 1/4 of the threads end up being cut through existing threads at the end of the cut. It works most of the time but is not idea for hard use. Its likely fine though in a steel crank arm used on a three speed for pleasure riding.

Just because I was curious I measured the wrench flats on my pedals (as I wrote about in a few posts earlier). My micrometer measures them at 15.3mm and 0.6 inches. The 5/8" wrench was a better fit for me than a 16mm wrench.

The cranks arms have what looks like an embossed "V" in a rectangle, does that mean anything?

thumpism 10-29-21 06:19 PM

Several 3-speeds from a shop's collection in Ann Arbor MI, Many of them very cheap.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...43747945746506

https://scontent.fric1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...f3&oe=6181661D

barnfind 10-29-21 10:00 PM


Originally Posted by 39cross (Post 22288131)
Gratefully snipped from the above post:

Just because I was curious I measured the wrench flats on my pedals (as I wrote about in a few posts earlier). My micrometer measures them at 15.3mm and 0.6 inches. The 5/8" wrench was a better fit for me than a 16mm wrench.

The cranks arms have what looks like an embossed "V" in a rectangle, does that mean anything?

Keep in mind these are English bicycles and the use of random BSW and BSF sizes continued into the 1970's.
Whitworth threads are 55 degree.vs 60.

vintagebicycle 10-30-21 02:11 AM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 22286731)

Looks like the front of a ladies Sports and the back of an old Schwinn Town and Country Trike.

Gravel Rider 10-30-21 06:21 PM

https://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/b...395467823.html

jkrug 10-31-21 01:23 PM

Just picked up a pair of Raleigh Sports in rough shape but all original. The hubs are '72 on the men's and '73 on the women's. Almost done with the women's bike, but the cotters on the crank are frozen solid. Tried penetrating oil for a week, but short of bashing them with a hammer and/or drilling them out (which I don't want to do) what is the best method for getting them out?

ThermionicScott 10-31-21 01:26 PM


Originally Posted by ThermionicScott (Post 22267738)
I'm thinking about getting some of these Kool-Stop "John Bull"-style brake pads so that I can re-use the original holders on my Armstrong. Anybody have experience with the fit? https://www.ebay.com/itm/324430427215

I went ahead and bought a set. Only took minimal crimping for the holders to get a good hold on the pads:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...89d464055d.jpg

Turns out that I'll need to file the rears down a little bit for clearance to the rims, but that's fine!

bluesteak 10-31-21 06:59 PM


Originally Posted by jkrug (Post 22290475)
Just picked up a pair of Raleigh Sports in rough shape but all original. The hubs are '72 on the men's and '73 on the women's. Almost done with the women's bike, but the cotters on the crank are frozen solid. Tried penetrating oil for a week, but short of bashing them with a hammer and/or drilling them out (which I don't want to do) what is the best method for getting them out?

I have a park tool cotter press. I donít think they make them anymore. Before that I made a press out a hanger clamp for steel roof trusses. There are instructions somewhere in this thread on how to make one

nlerner 10-31-21 07:10 PM


Originally Posted by ThermionicScott (Post 22290479)
I went ahead and bought a set. Only took minimal crimping for the holders to get a good hold on the pads:
Turns out that I'll need to file the rears down a little bit for clearance to the rims, but that's fine!

Oh, those look very promising! I rode my '37 Sports today, and the John Bull pads are only suggestive of stopping, and that's even with aluminum rims. Might have to go for the Kool Stops.

jkrug 10-31-21 10:07 PM


Originally Posted by bluesteak (Post 22290834)
I have a park tool cotter press. I donít think they make them anymore. Before that I made a press out a hanger clamp for steel roof trusses. There are instructions somewhere in this thread on how to make one

Thank you. I haven't made it all the way through this thread but will look for it. I've also found one made from a ball joint splitter that I will probably try.

FBOATSB 11-01-21 01:56 AM


Originally Posted by jkrug (Post 22291041)
Thank you. I haven't made it all the way through this thread but will look for it. I've also found one made from a ball joint splitter that I will probably try.

New Crank Cotter Press
Top notch tools and cotters.

gster 11-01-21 04:57 AM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 22286752)

I like the His and Hers situation.
Often purchased with good intentions to "get in shape" and then
quickly relegated to the basement or back of the garage.

3speedslow 11-01-21 08:41 AM


Originally Posted by FBOATSB (Post 22291105)
New Crank Cotter Press
Top notch tools and cotters.

OHH! Gotíta get one! Thanks for bulletin.

Greg R 11-01-21 10:14 AM


but short of bashing them with a hammer and/or drilling them out (which I don't want to do) what is the best method for getting them out?
Here's what I've done: Support the crank with a block of wood that goes to the floor and has a hole drilled in the top for the cotter to pass into as it exits. Use a BRASS punch, or hardwood, to strike with the hammer. Don't hammer directly on the pin for that will surely mushroom the end and possibly deflect and hit the bike.. With the force going to the pin and floor, you won't ruin the crank bearing or bend the spindle. I've seen both on the bikes I've recently gone through.

Sometimes, rarely, but sometimes a little heat aids the penetrating oil and expands the crank arm just enough to start movement. Be careful around paint and cableling..

Usually the tough ones get ruined, they're consumables. Don't waste time saving a buggered one, find quality new ones.

Look for RJ the Bike Guy videos and BikeSmith's articles on cotter pins. They helped me and I have a cotter press from BikeSmith coming so I'll see how that turns out.

Edit:
The tool came today, so I tried it out on an old Churchill. It's made extremely well and worked great. Instructions came in an email which also included procedure to use the tool to INSTALL the pins. Money well invested.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...06a8214ab3.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ff2f126423.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7d50585170.jpg


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