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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

gster 12-03-21 09:43 PM


Originally Posted by jkrug (Post 22324850)
Found a rider for the restored grey '73 Sports.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c9ab6c290d.jpg
Before: Thought the bike was brown...Stripped it down completely for the rebuild.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fa8a8deff.jpeg
Original paint cleaned up nicely with Maguire's rubbing compound and then some wax. Mostly original parts and it runs great.

Very nice work,

gster 12-03-21 09:55 PM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 22327165)

The throttle shifters are almost worth the price.

gster 12-03-21 09:59 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 22326161)
Full name Drew Gutenberg.

I prefer Steve Gutenberg, from such films as
Police Academy
Other films

dirtman 12-04-21 01:30 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 22328354)
The throttle shifters are almost worth the price.

I've only run across one or two with those shifters over the years, most have been converted to two trigger shifters and a Shimano left belcrank.
I bought three of them for over the summer for $20 along all with the rear hubs missing but with nice chrome bits. I'll probably use the chrome on other bikes but will likely put the one 23" frame model back together as a three speed. S5 hubs have gotten to pricey for my budget these days. Between the hub and original shifters, you could likely double your money on that bike even at their asking price.

dirtman 12-04-21 02:36 AM


Originally Posted by 2fat2fly (Post 22327424)
I had a neighbor bring me a bike yesterday with the rear wheel locked up tight. She said she was riding and all of a sudden the back wheel locked up, then broke free, then locked up again.
The SA AW hub was locked up tight.
As soon as i put the bike up on the stand I could see something really bad happened. There was a dent in the shell from the inside, and the shift cable was pulled out of the shifter up top.
I removed the cable from the indicator, removed the indicator, and removed the axle nuts. That's when I really realized how bad it was. The axle had twisted on the left side only, spreading the dropouts a bit and wedging the round part of the axle in the frame. I had to take a block of wood and drive the axle down out of the dropout on the left side.
I immediately saw that the left axle threads were twisted almost a quarter turn and the axle had 'threaded' the inside of the dropouts.
I then backed off both bearing cones, and both axle bearings and cones were fine.
I then found that the driver was stuck in the hub. It took a brass mallet to knock it loose.
The bearings, race, and driver were stuck together, the bearings that fell out were black and burnt looking. The right side race was blue and the driver had come color as well and a few chunks out of the bearing race.
I pulled the internals and soon found that the pinion gear was loose on the axle, and half the pin that holds it in place was gone. The gears and the rest of the hub were fine except for one broken left side pawl.
The owner is a big woman, 6ft 5in or so in her 60's. The bike is a ladies Sports.
The hub was well oiled, and there was no real grinding or cutting going on, which made me think it did indeed happen pretty fast. However, I didn't find the missing half of the pinion gear pin, or the missing half of the one pawl.
The driver bearings were about half their normal size and not even close to round and there was a lot of grinding dust in with the bearings and not much lube there, but the bearings were pretty much burned black.

The hub shell was re-usable, I replaced the axle, right bearing race, cone, and all the bearings and its back up and riding. The pinion gear was actually fine too, but rather than mess around with the old gear I just found a used axle for it.

Here's the axle


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...88ffa90763.jpg
....
The entire axle is twisted, not just the end, look at how far the flats are from each other on the other end. I also thought it odd that the sold end of the axle twisted before the hollow end. Both no-turn washers were also destroyed, with the left one broken in half. Since the dropouts were so chewed up, I added an extra no turn washer on the outside as well on the left side. When i thought about it and what had to happen for this to fail this way I figure that both the driver and the pin or pawl had to lock up the internals at the same time. Otherwise, the locked up driver would have just made it a fixed gear but it was locked up completely. I suppose if it didn't lock up, the axle would have kept turning and just eventually snapped.

I've had a few broken axles and stripped pinion gears but I've not seen one locked up or twisted like that. All of the hubs that had broken axles that I found were badly abused and run till they just wouldn't go any further. The few stripped pinions were in hubs that were badly worn internally, likely run dry for years.
I could imagine what sort of havoc a loose or protruding pin could do when moving along at speed, especially with a heavier rider

As a kid, I broke an axle on a road bike and the rear end locked up while descending a hill, it wasn't a fun experience

I would suppose with a three speed hub, if something broke or locked up at speed, the forces could be amplified even greater than with a straight axle. If the driver locked up, the effect would be simply a fixed gear situation, but if you lost a set of pawls combined with a loose pin or some shrapnel in the mix, the planetary gears could exert some serious force on the axle as various components stopped turning. I wonder if the planetary gears could create a reverse gear situation if one set of pawls were either engaged or not there in the right combination.
Either way I can imagine the crunching and grinding sounds that had to make as it locked up.

gster 12-04-21 10:13 AM


Originally Posted by dirtman (Post 22328441)
I've had a few broken axles and stripped pinion gears but I've not seen one locked up or twisted like that. All of the hubs that had broken axles that I found were badly abused and run till they just wouldn't go any further. The few stripped pinions were in hubs that were badly worn internally, likely run dry for years.
I could imagine what sort of havoc a loose or protruding pin could do when moving along at speed, especially with a heavier rider

As a kid, I broke an axle on a road bike and the rear end locked up while descending a hill, it wasn't a fun experience

I would suppose with a three speed hub, if something broke or locked up at speed, the forces could be amplified even greater than with a straight axle. If the driver locked up, the effect would be simply a fixed gear situation, but if you lost a set of pawls combined with a loose pin or some shrapnel in the mix, the planetary gears could exert some serious force on the axle as various components stopped turning. I wonder if the planetary gears could create a reverse gear situation if one set of pawls were either engaged or not there in the right combination.
Either way I can imagine the crunching and grinding sounds that had to make as it locked up.

Years ago, I gave an old 3 speed to a young friend. A 1969 CCM Galaxie. I didn't know much about SA hubs at the time and thought he could figure it out.
He complained that it just wouldn't shift so I took it back and swapped him another bike (5 speed deraileur).
Eventually I got around to taking the hub apart to have a look.
The pin was loose and half way out and the axle was quite badly warped.
In any case, the hub was fixed and they bike found a new home.
I might add that the person i originally got the bike from was also quite heavy.....
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a9e4975f19.jpg

SirMike1983 12-04-21 09:18 PM

For the person who wants a little different hub... an AM from 1938. (Not my sale, but if you have to have a pre-war AM... not something that often comes up).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/13395460842...wAAOSw4u1hrBtT

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/VPEAA...tc/s-l1600.jpg

browngw 12-04-21 10:17 PM

I've just noticed that my English 3 speed inventory is pretty low. The 1971 Robin Hood and the 1956 Royal Nord President with English Brampton hub and shifter have to carry the flag for the time being.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fe8a038b14.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b45eaa6685.jpg

dirtman 12-05-21 05:50 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 22328624)
Years ago, I gave an old 3 speed to a young friend. A 1969 CCM Galaxie. I didn't know much about SA hubs at the time and thought he could figure it out.
He complained that it just wouldn't shift so I took it back and swapped him another bike (5 speed deraileur).
Eventually I got around to taking the hub apart to have a look.
The pin was loose and half way out and the axle was quite badly warped.
In any case, the hub was fixed and they bike found a new home.
I might add that the person i originally got the bike from was also quite heavy.....
.....

I'm no lightweight myself, at 6ft 3in tall and just over 325 lbs, I've done my share of damage to bikes but in most cases it wasn't the weight that caused the failure.
On my personal bikes, those that I've either bought new or gone over myself, I've never had a broken axle or any sort of wheel failure. I have however broken a few cranks and crank axles, but never on an English bike.
There are things I don't do, especially on an unknown or cheaper bike. One is stand up and pedal, another is pedal too hard in a too high a gear. Riding over even slight curbs is another thing to avoid, as is being sure the tires are fully inflated.

Most bent axles started out as loose bearings.

Most pinion pins that I've seen are pretty tight, they don't fall out easily but if the axle is stressed or bent, all bets are off. A loose fitting pin could easily be set in place with a hard shot with a center punch.
I think the worst case I saw with an AW hub was one with a broken right bearing cup. The bearings were ground to half their size, the left bearing cone was chipped up and the left bearing race has been pushed through letting the ball bearings to escape inside the hub. It was on a junk wheel from a cleanout I did a while back, there were basically no salvageable parts inside. All bearing surfaces were chewed up, the pinion gears and planet gears were chipped up and worn, and the cage pin holes were wallowed out so bad that even new gears would just lock up. The axle slot was worn unevenly and someone had hammered a large nail into the end of the axle in place of the skewer.
I always figured that if kept properly lubed and adjusted an AW hub should last indefinitely.

markk900 12-05-21 05:57 AM


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 22329237)
I've just noticed that my English 3 speed inventory is pretty low. The 1971 Robin Hood and the 1956 Royal Nord President with English Brampton hub and shifter have to carry the flag for the time being.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fe8a038b14.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b45eaa6685.jpg

Its not quantity its quality that counts.....

gster 12-05-21 08:54 AM

O.T. Oddball
Bridgestone Picnica....
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...18f9832331.jpg
https://bootiebike.com/bridgestone/bridgestone.htm

SirMike1983 12-07-21 01:51 PM

In the midst of re-building this very clean 1964 Schwinn Traveler 3-speed. I've taken it down to the frame, cleaned, lubed, and am now re-assembling.

https://thecabe.com/forum/attachment...4-jpg.1521862/

The stainless steel fenders on this one are in very nice shape. They usually turn up all scratched and dented.

https://thecabe.com/forum/attachment...0-jpg.1521863/

A before and after type shot of the Weinmann 810 "Schwinn Approved" brake calipers:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ygFgNAeRX...120_195259.jpg

The transfers are all in pretty good shape on this bike. The seat tube transfer usually turns up damaged or badly discolored on these, but this one is pretty good after some light cleaning.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-moFwwZHSC...127_202112.jpg

The wheelset has a 1964 Sturmey AW rear and Schwinn hourglass front hubs. Rims are Schwinn S5 (Westrick shape). Spokes are Union double-butted steel. The bearings and bearing surfaces all are in good shape.

oldspokes 12-09-21 12:38 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 22332216)
In the midst of re-building this very clean 1964 Schwinn Traveler 3-speed. I've taken it down to the frame, cleaned, lubed, and am now re-assembling.

https://thecabe.com/forum/attachment...4-jpg.1521862/

The stainless steel fenders on this one are in very nice shape. They usually turn up all scratched and dented.

https://thecabe.com/forum/attachment...0-jpg.1521863/

A before and after type shot of the Weinmann 810 "Schwinn Approved" brake calipers:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ygFgNAeRX...120_195259.jpg

The transfers are all in pretty good shape on this bike. The seat tube transfer usually turns up damaged or badly discolored on these, but this one is pretty good after some light cleaning.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-moFwwZHSC...127_202112.jpg

The wheelset has a 1964 Sturmey AW rear and Schwinn hourglass front hubs. Rims are Schwinn S5 (Westrick shape). Spokes are Union double-butted steel. The bearings and bearing surfaces all are in good shape.

That thing is super clean!
I have a '62 Traveler hanging in the basement in the taller frame. Its fenders are trashed and the original starburst headbadge is chipped. Its biggest fault is that the threads on the fork are a bit sketchy, when I backed off the lock nut the cone popped right off. The threads on the fork are very shallow, either stripped or miss-cut. Someone before me had wrapped the threads with tape and forced the top nut down over it all.

I've been searching for a good set of fenders and a black fork for 25 years or so. I have a 65 in green with a badly rusted out frame that may donate the forks if I want to paint a set of forks. A cheap set of Wald fenders would get it going and looking decent again but I hate not using all original parts. The original fenders are both rusted on the inside, the stays are mangled, and there are thousands of dents. The front fender looks like it got sucked up into the tire at one point, straightened back out.
The wheels are near mint though, with a vintage set of Goodyear tires that are in really nice shape.
The '62' stamped fenders that came with mine don't have the crested front fender, just plain fenders.
I actually bought the bike while on vacation years ago and used it as it was for a week there, then took it apart, packed it in the car and came home with it. After I took it apart, I couldn't believe it rode as good as it did. The bearings were completely dry, the cables were rusted, and the brake pads were petrified. Its been apart in a few boxes since around 1996.

jkrug 12-09-21 12:51 AM

Not an English bike, but this was my first taste of a Sturmey Archer equipped bike. This Schwinn Breeze was in a box in pieces when I got it--previous owner had taken it apart with his son to repaint the frame and--20 years later--hadn't gotten around to it. He assured me all the parts were there and mostly they were. Took some polish to the paint and decided to leave it original. Although the painted lettering has worn, it came out pretty well, and after lubrication and some replaced cables and a tire it made a nice rider. Its new owner is very pleased with it.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d5031553e.jpeg
Almost entirely original, only a tube, tire, brake cables, and cable housings were replaced.

SirMike1983 12-09-21 08:23 AM


Originally Posted by jkrug (Post 22334018)
Not an English bike, but this was my first taste of a Sturmey Archer equipped bike. This Schwinn Breeze was in a box in pieces when I got it--previous owner had taken it apart with his son to repaint the frame and--20 years later--hadn't gotten around to it. He assured me all the parts were there and mostly they were. Took some polish to the paint and decided to leave it original. Although the painted lettering has worn, it came out pretty well, and after lubrication and some replaced cables and a tire it made a nice rider. Its new owner is very pleased with it.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d5031553e.jpeg
Almost entirely original, only a tube, tire, brake cables, and cable housings were replaced.


I think it's fair to place the Schwinn three speeds in with the British ones as being part of the same family of bikes. They have a common lineage.

I have never seen it confirmed by any Schwinn writing, but I have a strong suspicion that when Schwinn started making these three speed utility bikes in the late 1930s, they copied a Birmingham Hercules or BSA sports/light roadster as a template. Schwinn advertised its early three speeds as something for adult riders and being a choice for serious use as an alternative to English bikes. A customer could also custom order a bike and specify which American-style features they wanted (e.g., one-piece crank, coaster brake, etc.) and which British-style ones (e.g., cottered cranks, Sturmey hub, caliper brakes). In the pre-WWII era, Hercules and BSA (Hercules in particular) were actively exporting bikes and parts to the USA.

The slack frame angles of the Schwinn 3-speeds also had a strong resemblance to the pre-war Hercules and Phillips sports roadsters, though the Schwinn was of different frame joining construction. Schwinn initially opted for the 26x1.375 (599mm) wheels, but later went to the 597mm bead seat wheels. The English preferred the 26x1-3/8 (590mm) wheel. [If you think the choice today in tires for 590mm is limited, well 597 and 599 are even worse.]

Over time, the Schwinn-made bikes diverged from the English more. The later Schwinn three speeds from the mid-1950s and onward, which are the ones that usually show up (most are 1960s or 70s) converted gradually to parts that Schwinn could source from vendors - Weinmann 810 brakes, Weinmann brake levers, Union pedals and chains, etc.

But the two lines of bikes had both emerged from the rise in the 1930s of the British "light roadster" 26 inch wheels, with cable/caliper brakes, and a three speed AW hub.

mitchito 12-09-21 09:24 PM

1951 cws
 
1951 CWS roadster is being sold at an estate auction in Florida. It is sitting at $30 right now. It's a bit far for me and I have no space but I think it may be somewhat rare and hopefully desirable to someone here

https://hibid.com/lot/107557766/vtg-...0&ref=lot-listhttps://media.hibid.com/img.axd?id=7...P83s4FBy7%2fmr

arex 12-10-21 10:23 AM

Sale, today only. They have whitewall and gumwall.

https://www.biketiresdirect.com/prod...90-tire?sg=500

gster 12-10-21 11:19 AM

Paul McCartney on a British Club bike.
Not sure of the brand...
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6ce985a63a.jpg

Salubrious 12-10-21 12:18 PM

Metal fenders, look at the nose piece on the front fender. Chrome fulcrum clip stop. The brake levers help too- suggests early 1950s. Not a Raliegh- might be a Dunelt.

arex 12-10-21 12:36 PM

Daaaaaaang. I don't know what I'd do with it personally, but it's still pretty neat.

Velo Mule 12-10-21 12:41 PM

Hey @dirtman , good observation/diagnosis of the pin backing out of the pinion gear. That could be the cause as described. I have often wondered why these pinion gears weren't brazed in. I already know the answer though. It works and if after 50 years a pin fall out that is ok. Afterall brazing the pinion gear on would be a lot more work than just pinning it. An involve a torch, oxygen and someone skilled in the use of this equipment. Any line assembly tech can put a pin in.

I will check the fit of this pin next/every time I have a hub apart.

Of course, this is why you should not ignore signs that something may be going bad. No one here on Bike Forums would do that, but outside of us bike zealots that happens. The good news is that she found the right person to return her hub to it's original form and continue to ride her C & V bike. Good job, @2fat2fly .

Velo Mule 12-10-21 12:50 PM

@SirMike1983 I saw your bike in another classic forum. Wow, it is in nice shape. I don't know what it looked like when you got it but the chrome and paint looks perfect. I can't wait to see this one complete.

I worked on a Schwinn Racer three speed a while back and I wouldn't mind adding one of these Schwinn 3 speeds to my garage. Suburban's are a possibility too. They also came with three speeds and had a tubular fork. Come to think of it, I have many of the parts to make a Suburban 3 speed. Hmmmm. But it won't be original like the Traveler.

The American version of an English 3 speed. I like them both. That is the original and the Chicago variant.

Salubrious 12-10-21 01:41 PM


Originally Posted by Velo Mule (Post 22335663)
@SirMike1983 I saw your bike in another classic forum. Wow, it is in nice shape. I don't know what it looked like when you got it but the chrome and paint looks perfect. I can't wait to see this one complete.

I worked on a Schwinn Racer three speed a while back and I wouldn't mind adding one of these Schwinn 3 speeds to my garage. Suburban's are a possibility too. They also came with three speeds and had a tubular fork. Come to think of it, I have many of the parts to make a Suburban 3 speed. Hmmmm. But it won't be original like the Traveler.

The American version of an English 3 speed. I like them both. That is the original and the Chicago variant.

The Racer has that solid Astabula fork- its heavy and flexes. You really do want the tubular fork. But these days that shouldn't be hard to find- a Continental might have one that has the lower half chromes- kind of a nice touch...

Velo Mule 12-10-21 06:01 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 22335731)
The Racer has that solid Astabula fork- its heavy and flexes. You really do want the tubular fork. But these days that shouldn't be hard to find- a Continental might have one that has the lower half chromes- kind of a nice touch...

My issue with the Astabula fork is that it is heavy and doesn't flex, at least the way I would like it to, that is to accommodate small bumps. I think that the thin (Aero, before aero was a thing) fork blades flex sideways is what you are referring to. One thing that I will have to say on the behalf of the Astabula fork is it is strong (as long as you don't sideload it). I do have a Tange fork for the Varsity. Schwinn at some point switched to using Tange forks for their tubular forks. This particular Tange fork has a similar bend and from the same era as the one on my Continental. If I put together a Suburban, it will be a Frankenburban, but oh well. I'd enjoy it.

Yes, the reason that I prefer the Continental over the Varsity and the Suburban over the Racer is the tubular fork with a nice curve in it.

With all of that, I still like that black Traveler with the Astabula fork. It is great condition and all original right down to the fork. The new light will look great on it.

It is the Schwinn version of a Raleigh Sport with an Electro-Forged frame, forged fork, built in kickstand, welded on brackets for the rear brake and shifter cables, sturdy fenders (mudguards), North road style handlebars and better forged aluminum brake calipers. Too bad it didn't originally come with a Brooks or similar saddle. I would suspect the geometry is simar too. It does have a lightweight headbadge.

Is there enough members here for an American or North American 3 speed thread? Murray, CCM, Schwinn, Sears, etc.

clubman 12-10-21 06:18 PM


Originally Posted by Velo Mule (Post 22336035)

Is there enough members here for an American or North American 3 speed thread? Murray, CCM, Schwinn, Sears, etc.

Pretty sure there are but we're adept at inserting ourselves in a variety of threads already.

One on my fave CCM 3 speeds but sold to another. BTW we used to have sub groups, IGH and regional but they escaped my cursory search.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...01ada754d2.jpg


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