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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

3speedslow 05-06-16 09:23 AM

Those Cotters are intended to be soft and maluable, good and bad. I spent considerable time making sure the bolt was positioned just right on the threads so the force was on the shaft and not on the bolt.

i think it is time to invest in a cotter tool though for myself.

Sorry to read about the soreness!

I have empathy. Last few days have been off the bike while I give a pulled muscle in my lower back time to calm down. Had a fight with a seatpost and stem. You grab hold and push back and forth while pulling up with your arms. Seat not bad but that stem was crazy tight. Would move but barely. By the time I finally pulled up and out with it I could not stand up right:(

Too much for an old back. But such a thrill in the fight!

You are closer now to finishing, keep at it.

Brown Bearings, time to replace with new ones.

clubman 05-06-16 09:24 AM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18745700)
@clubman - I have an official Park Tool Cotter press and, despite being careful to line things up, both cotters bent. The first one came out though. I tried to be very careful about alignment but these threaded ends seemed soft to me.
@arex - the non drive side adjustable cup came out beautifully to reveal bone dry cups with dull brown bearings and tiny bit of rust from the bottom bracket shell. It sounded dry and it was.

As as an aside, my hands and forearms are very sore this morning.

Yeah many people recommend that cotters should be soft. I prefer the older, hard steel ones and have saved up a small stash of them, different lengths and bevels. They're fussier to install and sometimes need filing but they definitely come out easier. They tend to pop out with good technique.

Get the tiger balm out and keep at it.

3speedslow 05-06-16 11:03 AM

Reminds me, I need to check out my LBS and their forgotten drawer of cotters. They still got loads and different sizes to boot.

BigChief 05-06-16 11:11 AM

Had some time for the 64 today. Did a strip down and basic cleaning. No problem with the cotters thankfully. The Bike Smith press did fine, both reusable.
I'll have time for the BB and steering bearings today, but I'll have to get back to work for the next week. I'm pleased with this one, I think she'll clean up nicely.
Frame is nice and straight.
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/f...nnsech/64a.jpg

3speedslow 05-06-16 11:25 AM

Decals look to be in great shape too.

Really like the black Sports, so dignified looking. My black 73 reminds me of the one my Father rode.

noglider 05-06-16 01:23 PM

[MENTION=355580]Velocivixen[/MENTION], I've done this at least once. The last time was with my former Peugeot UO-8. The idea is to shred the cotter into oblivion. You remove material with the drill until it is punch-out-able. You might shred it to almost nothing by starting with a small bit and graduating to bigger bits. Eventually, the bit is almost as big as the cotter and there's not much left but a hollow cotter. That should punch out.

Cutting oil is probably best, as I believe it is designed for maximum heat dissipation. I didn't have any, so I used motor oil. Just stop when things get too hot and resume after they cool down. If you use no oil or bad oil, you'll have to do this frequently. The better oil you use, the less often you will need to take a cooling break. Don't let your drill bit get red hot.

SirMike1983 05-06-16 03:38 PM

Light motor oil is OK for a straight drill-out, as long as you go slow and check the heat level.

Cutting oil is good, but really shines when you need to tap threads or do die work.

BigChief 05-06-16 04:04 PM

We always had a can of MR. COOL TOOL at the shop. Always thought it would be a good name for a punk band.

browngw 05-06-16 04:54 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Sir Wayes A. Tonne at the coffee shop last week. He is mostly sorted now and working well.

arex 05-06-16 05:19 PM


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 18746935)
Sir Wayes A. Tonne at the coffee shop last week. He is mostly sorted now and working well.

Nice photo.

DQRider 05-06-16 06:14 PM


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 18746935)
Sir Wayes A. Tonne at the coffee shop last week. He is mostly sorted now and working well.

Indeed, excellent composition. And that bike! Full chaincase, a headlight even older than mine, and are those really Raleigh panniers? You've kept it as original as possible, and it is utterly beautiful. Well done! :thumb:

gster 05-06-16 07:12 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 18746084)
Had some time for the 64 today. Did a strip down and basic cleaning. No problem with the cotters thankfully. The Bike Smith press did fine, both reusable.
I'll have time for the BB and steering bearings today, but I'll have to get back to work for the next week. I'm pleased with this one, I think she'll clean up nicely.
Frame is nice and straight.
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/f...nnsech/64a.jpg

I like a black bike.

DQRider 05-06-16 07:15 PM

Can't wait to see it!

browngw 05-06-16 07:59 PM


Originally Posted by DQRider (Post 18747110)
Indeed, excellent composition. And that bike! Full chaincase, a headlight even older than mine, and are those really Raleigh panniers? You've kept it as original as possible, and it is utterly beautiful. Well done! :thumb:

I imagined the composition but only had my Sony smartphone with me. The Raleigh panniers, saddlebags actually were purchased in the early 90s at Canadian Tire. Raleigh's were popular in Canada and there was lots of stuff about. I had two but sadly sold one a while ago.
I will return to the Urban with a real camera next time. The light is much older than the bike and will be refitted with an LED when I find time. [MENTION=308017]arex[/MENTION] thanks!

BigChief 05-06-16 08:10 PM


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 18747349)
I imagined the composition but only had my Sony smartphone with me. The Raleigh panniers, saddlebags actually were purchased in the early 90s at Canadian Tire. Raleigh's were popular in Canada and there was lots of stuff about. I had two but sadly sold one a while ago.
I will return to the Urban with a real camera next time. The light is much older than the bike and will be refitted with an LED when I find time. @arex thanks!

Your DL-1 is gorgeous! Good job.
Please post details of the LED conversion when you do it. I'd like to make one for my Roadster. Great idea.

Velocivixen 05-06-16 08:38 PM

Well I posted an update from my phone and it's not here. Update: An employee at my LBS loaned me is very strong drill bits - like they can drill through anything, and finally made it though the cotter. I don't think it's going to come out by whacking it, although I try periodically. It has to be ground out. I even went so far as to put the NDS crank arm back on, putting the rear wheel on and standing with feet on pedals at 3 & 9 o'clock and bouncing up and down while applying the front brake and holding onto my work bench. Not budging.

I'm afraid to use larger bit becaue the flat side of the spindle will either get marred or will dull the bit.

I took out the NDS cup and tried whacking the spindle out that way from the chainring. I've tried multiple times a long screwdriver between the fixed cup and base of chain ring. I've tried hammering on the drive side crank arm.....no go.

i've literally spend from 10:30 a.m. to around 6:00 p.m. on this! In the meantime I installed new front/rear brake cables/housings, and slightly used brake pads. The fenders are off and will be cleaned up.

I may have to enlist the help of @gugie with his torch to work on this.

I don't mind a challenge and I've had a few but nothing like this. Without repacking the bottom bracket and getting this chainring off the spindle I can't ride the bike. Someone suggested I ride the bike carefully and then, of course, the chainring will come off....I'm deflated and discouraged plus my shoulders, neck and back hurt from bending over the thing all day.

Right now it's on its side with penetrating oil soaking between the end of the spindle and the chainring.

BigChief 05-06-16 10:21 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18747436)
Well I posted an update from my phonbe and it's not here. Update: An employee at my LBX loaned me is very strong drill bits - like they can drill through anything, and finally made it though the cotter. I don't think it's going to come out by whacking it, although I try periodically. It has to be ground out. I even went so far as to put the NDS crank arm back on, putting the rear wheel on and standing with feet on pedals at 3 & 9 o'clock and bouncing up and down while applying the front brake and holding onto my work bench. Not budging.

I'm afraid to use larger bit becaue the flat side of the spindle will either get marred or will dull the bit.

I took out the NDS cup and tried whacking the spindle out that way from the chainring. I've tried multiple times a long screwdriver between the fixed cup and base of chain ring. I've tried hammering on the drive side crank arm.....no go.

i've literally spend from 10:30 a.m. to around 6:00 p.m. on this! In the meantime I installed new front/rear brake cables/housings, and slightly used brake pads. The fenders are off and will be cleaned up.

I may have to enlist the help of @gugie with his torch to work on this.

I don't mind a challenge and I've had a few but nothing like this. Without repacking the bottom bracket and getting this chainring off the spindle I can't ride the bike. Someone suggested I ride the bike carefully and then, of course, the chainring will come off....I'm deflated and discouraged plus my shoulders, neck and back hurt from bending over the thing all day.

Right now it's on its side with penetrating oil soaking between the end of the spindle and the chainring.

Wow, this rivals any stuck seatpost story I've heard. But, now that you have a hole, you could use abrasive wire to cut the sides of the pin without damaging the shaft.

Loose Chain 05-06-16 10:47 PM

To remove the cotter keys from the cranks on my two bikes I used my tie rod puller for Jeep (Wrangler) steering gear. It is heavy duty and effortlessly pushed the cotters out without damaging them. The amount of force needed to pull a tie rod arm is way beyond those bitsy little cotters.

But, so much junk fell out of both bikes that I was unable to count the balls (per side). How many are there supposed to be and what number per side?

How much weight do you think these bikes were intended to carry?

gugie 05-06-16 11:22 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18747436)
I may have to enlist the help of @gugie with his torch to work on this.

Well, we can always heat everything up to ludicrous temperature, then brass braze the blob of steel back to something that resembles a bicycle.

The pressed in pin on the folding joint of my Bike Friday kinda sized up a few years ago. I bought the bike in 96, and never serviced it. Apparently that's a thing. I had to bring it to a machine shop to drill it out. Once you drill it hollow, use successively larger drill bits until it's thin enough to punch out - seconding [MENTION=152773]noglider[/MENTION] 's recommendation.

If we heat it up with a torch the chrome will probably get damaged. Consider the possiblity of replacing them if they're damaged.

I'd try the "ride it around" and see if that loosens things up.

Torch would be the last resort.

BigChief 05-07-16 04:55 AM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18747641)
To remove the cotter keys from the cranks on my two bikes I used my tie rod puller for Jeep (Wrangler) steering gear. It is heavy duty and effortlessly pushed the cotters out without damaging them. The amount of force needed to pull a tie rod arm is way beyond those bitsy little cotters.

But, so much junk fell out of both bikes that I was unable to count the balls (per side). How many are there supposed to be and what number per side?

How much weight do you think these bikes were intended to carry?

I always seem to loose ball bearings when I take the BB apart. Steering tube is even worse. The BB has 11 1/4" bearings per side.

3speedslow 05-07-16 08:52 AM

Man, there's a fight goin' on in Pacific Northwest !

Loose Chain 05-07-16 09:01 AM

You know, I have often wondered why there are not grease zerks on utility bicycles for steering and especially the BB. I can see on a fine racer or super lightweight one would not want a zerk or the extra grease content but these English clunkers are often not so loved and cared for (as we seem to appreciate :) )and taking them apart to restore the grease seems a PITA. If the grease channel were well designed the new grease would push out the old and along with it the gunk.

BigChief 05-07-16 09:43 AM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18748177)
You know, I have often wondered why there are not grease zerks on utility bicycles for steering and especially the BB. I can see on a fine racer or super lightweight one would not want a zerk or the extra grease content but these English clunkers are often not so loved and cared for (as we seem to appreciate :) )and taking them apart to restore the grease seems a PITA. If the grease channel were well designed the new grease would push out the old and along with it the gunk.

These bikes do have a lot of odd ball quirks. Be grateful the sports models have the modern convenience of rear dropouts. The DL-1s never got that. Another thing is the front hubs. At some point in the distant past, the front end of my Rudge got crunched and somebody replaced it with a Schwinn fork and wheel. I have a Raleigh made fork and hub and was planning on using them when I install a pair of CR-18 rims.
But now I'm thinking of keeping them. I had to replace a tube this winter. I loosened the nuts and the wheel came right out of the forks without a wrestling match...imagine that. Lock nuts to hold the bearing races too. Caged bearings in the headset. How un-British.

DQRider 05-07-16 10:46 AM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18748177)
You know, I have often wondered why there are not grease zerks on utility bicycles for steering and especially the BB. I can see on a fine racer or super lightweight one would not want a zerk or the extra grease content but these English clunkers are often not so loved and cared for (as we seem to appreciate :) )and taking them apart to restore the grease seems a PITA. If the grease channel were well designed the new grease would push out the old and along with it the gunk.

That would deprive us of the winter ritual: disassemble, repack, and reassemble everything. It keeps us out in the shop, instead of sitting in the house and brooding - at least up here where we have real winters. If I didn't have so much family up here, I would be living somewhere with a year-round riding season. Besides, nobody has yet invented, to my knowledge, an aesthetically pleasing zerk.

Slash5 05-07-16 11:10 AM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18748177)
You know, I have often wondered why there are not grease zerks on utility bicycles for steering and especially the BB. I can see on a fine racer or super lightweight one would not want a zerk or the extra grease content but these English clunkers are often not so loved and cared for (as we seem to appreciate :) )and taking them apart to restore the grease seems a PITA. If the grease channel were well designed the new grease would push out the old and along with it the gunk.

On my 86 Cannondale MTB I installed a grease fitting in the bottom bracket and I had a conversion I bought for the XT pedals that put grease fittings in the end caps.


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