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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

michaelz28 02-24-15 05:10 PM


Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate (Post 17581256)
Yep. And maybe, like me, vintage lawn chairs. I re-web them when the sun has destroyed the webbing. Can't stand to see the aluminum frames junked when these are such perfect example of functional industrial design...

To the topic at hand, left to right:

"small" round white rubber housing, these could be SA, Lucas, or Fairylite as best I can tell. On a project bike I haven't gotten to yet... [no chain guard, doinker kickstand etc.]
"small" round black rubber housing, this is a repop from Asia somewhere. Decent quality but not correct for my black '74 LTD-3 but I like it so...
"large" round white rubber housing, OEM to the '74 Raleigh Sports [same bike as mentioned above]. I guess the Feds were getting involved hence the change...

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=435958 ...and now, with michaelz28's bike's reflector, I'll have to add another variant to my pics and knowledge base. There are some people on this thread with encyclopedic knowledge of these bikes and maybe they can shed some light on the black vs. white variants of the reflectors from this time frame.

i would assume that my black one is original . It's a sturmey archer housing and a Lucas lense .

Velocivixen 02-25-15 01:49 AM

Who here has 650A Col de la Vie tires on their three speed. I finally got 2. Postage said "2-Day Priority, but it's been 12 days! Anyway I was hoping they'd be a tiny bit wider, as stated on Harris Cyclery site (they say 38.5 mm). Mine, mounted to CR18 rims are just a tad over 32 mm. No wider than the cheap Kendas and not more comfy of a ride. Plus mounting them and getting them seated so the tan part looks the same thickness all the way around sucks.

When I sit in front of the bike and watch the front wheel spin the tire looks wavy side to side, and the wheel is true. The tire appears to be seated. That little indicator line that is supposed to run parallel to the rim is parallel all the way around but the tan part seems to bulge near the stem. Ideas? Is this common?

teaboy 02-25-15 06:30 AM

I have just had the same thing you need to send them back .I cut my losses and brought chepo Raliegh branded maid in China tyres and they are much better!

Salubrious 02-25-15 11:22 AM

@ Velocivixen- I've got a set of Continental City Rides on my Humber Sports and love them! I've been riding Kendas, which worked OK (smooth ride, handled fine) but when I installed the City Rides I realized the Kendas were also kinda slow. Of course the City Rides run higher pressure, although I routinely ran the Kendas about 10 pounds over simply because I was also using CR18s which have a bead ridge- I don't think I could get away with that on the stock rims :eek:

The City Rides look a bit- fat. The carcass looks more roundish than the Kendas do.

Sounds like that Col de la Vie tire is defective.

noglider 02-25-15 01:10 PM

Sounds like you got defective tires, @Velocivixen. Darn.

Velocivixen 02-25-15 01:51 PM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 17584531)
Sounds like you got defective tires, @Velocivixen. Darn.

How do you mean "defective"? Specifically? I finally got the indicator "line" evenly spaced around the rim. I'm wondering if the tan wall is just not even all the way around? The front tracks much better since I've since adjusted some more. Rear is a little better.

So, I've already mounted and ridden these tires around, so I'm presuming no returning them. What would be the problem riding them? I don't think the bead is going to come off the rim.

noglider 02-25-15 01:53 PM

Oh, so the defect is merely ęsthetic? Then I guess it's not so bad. If the tire rides OK, I wouldn't mind.

Velocivixen 02-25-15 01:55 PM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 17584640)
Oh, so the defect is merely ęsthetic? Then I guess it's not so bad. If the tire rides OK, I wouldn't mind.

Well, not being a bike professional, hard to say. On the rear tire when I spin it and stand behind the bike it looks like the tire goes slightly side to side. That is weird because that line on the tire is evenly spaced around the rim. The wheel is absolutely true, so it's not that.

You have any ideas? I appreciate your expertise. Thanks.

noglider 02-25-15 01:57 PM

I like to make wheels very true, but the truth (ha) is that tires are never nearly as true as wheels. And if we can't feel the lumps, they don't matter. Tires are normally lumpy, but to varying degrees. You could post a video of your spinning wheel and ask if it is excessively lumpy.

Velocivixen 02-25-15 02:01 PM

I thought if I rode it a bit things would "settle" in a little. At what point would it be dangerous? Like if the bead wouldn't seat or ??? I found it very challenging to get that indicator line to be close to the rim right by the valve stem (4" total near valve) and directly opposite the valve. Weird. It's seated though, and improved, but I had to deflate tire, massage tire, reinflate, etc. Pain. I definitely wouldn't fix a flat on the side of the road with these tires. The lowly Kendas went on/off with ease.

Salubrious 02-25-15 02:33 PM

Its only dangerous if the tire is bulging somewhere.

teaboy 02-25-15 02:33 PM

If you deflate the the tyre and then lubircate the bead [I always use mrs teaboys handcream] re inlate the tyre you then will know the tyre will be perfectly seated You will then know if you have a mishapen tyre I dont think there is a saftey thing here ,i just changed my tyres because out on the road instead of looking up at road ahead i was staring at the front wheel!

noglider 02-25-15 03:16 PM

I suspect the tire will get used to being in the position you massaged it into. There's a good chance it will want to go back into that position next time you install it, if there ever is a next time.

markk900 02-25-15 05:27 PM

@Velocivixen: surprised you find the Panaracers narrow....on Raleigh rims, they are just a hair short of being too wide, and are much wider than the "normal" 26 x 1 3/8 tires that came off. The Kendas I have used tended to the narrow side (though I don't have any at hand to do a side by side comparison). Even though I have my CR18s I have not laced them up and the Panaracers went on the Raleigh rims with nary a whimper. Given the CR18s are narrower I would have expected the tires to appear even wider!

For your situation, it appears they may be cosmetically challenged - no danger per se and whether or not you keep them depends solely on your level of OCD. Mine ( bought from Niagara) seem completely OK. I did have a set of IRCs on another bike that had the problem you mention - very obvious problems with the consistency of the gumwall. Didn't pose any danger - just pissed me off. They've been replaced (ironically with Paselas - they were 700C tires).

Narhay 02-25-15 09:11 PM

I like my Michelin world tour tires except for the reflective strip (aesthetically). But I guess they help at night.

PalmettoUpstate 02-25-15 09:37 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 17583294)
When I sit in front of the bike and watch the front wheel spin the tire looks wavy side to side, and the wheel is true. The tire appears to be seated. That little indicator line that is supposed to run parallel to the rim is parallel all the way around but the tan part seems to bulge near the stem. Ideas? Is this common?

Absolutely no experience with those tires but they are touted as "la creme de la creme" on this thread.

Regarding what you're observing: "but the tan part seems to bulge near the stem."

I have had good results with Kendas - all Kendas - from the 55 psi rated to the 100 psi rated.

That being said; I got a killer, killer of a deal on a Schwinn Speedster because the guy had put new Kenda skinwalls on it and they had a lump - or thump - or whatever _ and he couldn't sort it out...

So I got the bike for the price of two tires.

And...

Got it home, put it on the stand, and saw pretty much what you're describing.

So, after considerable studying and head scratching, I inflated the tires to the specified max [55 psi] and lo and behold - the sidewall "popped" into the rim and all was squared up and I haven't looked back...

BTW, I might mention, that bike is a single speed coaster brake and I'm pretty sure that Schwinn made these bikes to be the absolute max in terms of all around efficiency.

I call the bike "James Dean" cuz it's "so clean" and it is a seriously fun ride that inexplicably traverses with aplomb routes where usually at least 3 speeds are needed.

Go figure!

Anyway, get a good rubber mallet, a $40 Harbor Freight air compressor, and some talcum powder and maybe some of those rim seating issues will just fade away...

PalmettoUpstate 02-25-15 09:40 PM

PS- Stupid me.

I forgot to mention that when I was flummoxed by all of the aforementioned I pulled the offending tire and tube off the rim and talc'ed them up. remounted them, and the rest was history.

Velocivixen 02-25-15 11:06 PM

Update: I think I know what's going on. I just deflated, rubbed the tire with Phil Wood Tenacious Oil to help the bead "slip" into place. I reinflated the tire and it helped in all areas except around the stem. I deflated tire completely, pried off one side of the tire around the rim near the stem area and saw the the RUBBER rim strip was askew. Rubber you ask????

When I first bought the bike it had single wall steel rims and my LBS said not to use cloth rim strips with single wall, so sold me rubber rim strips. When I built these new wheels and was buying all the supplies the wheelbuilder said I needed Neubaum's rim strips or at least cloth. She was out. I told her I had rubber and she hesitated, then said they'd do for now. I'm still using rubber rim strips. I had a h*ll of a time keeping them in the trough when installing tubes/tires as they kept moving around. I BET that rubber rim strip askew has kept the bead seat uneven in spots!!!

What do you think? I've got Neubaum's on my list to replace the rubber. I'm fairly sure that's what it is.

desconhecido 02-26-15 01:34 AM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 17585954)
Update: I think I know what's going on. I just deflated, rubbed the tire with Phil Wood Tenacious Oil to help the bead "slip" into place. I reinflated the tire and it helped in all areas except around the stem. I deflated tire completely, pried off one side of the tire around the rim near the stem area and saw the the RUBBER rim strip was askew. Rubber you ask????

When I first bought the bike it had single wall steel rims and my LBS said not to use cloth rim strips with single wall, so sold me rubber rim strips. When I built these new wheels and was buying all the supplies the wheelbuilder said I needed Neubaum's rim strips or at least cloth. She was out. I told her I had rubber and she hesitated, then said they'd do for now. I'm still using rubber rim strips. I had a h*ll of a time keeping them in the trough when installing tubes/tires as they kept moving around. I BET that rubber rim strip askew has kept the bead seat uneven in spots!!!

What do you think? I've got Neubaum's on my list to replace the rubber. I'm fairly sure that's what it is.

Your experience trying to get those tires properly seated sounds a lot like mine when I installed them on the black 51 Sports step-through. I wrote something about it a while ago, but I can't remember in which of these threads -- they all run together some how. I attribute the problems to the tire being a snug 590 mm bead and the rim having a deep well (original Raleigh rims). With your CR18, I wouldn't think you'd have a problem getting a uniform seating on the bead surface, so maybe the rim tape is the issue. With mine, I could move the lumps to different places on the tire.

I did have some rim tape issues with the tire on the Raleigh rims. I used Velox cloth tape and it didn't stick very well to the stainless (I think it is, and that's amazing) Raleigh rim. It's also a tad wide for the "pocket" that the tape should ride in. I like cloth rim tape, but I've recently been using some narrower Schwalbe blue rim tape that I got in a 50 meter roll -- it's a bit more economical that way. It seems to fit the center of the rim better.

Anyway, the CR18 rims are alleged to be "tight" to get tires on (that's my experience) and a rim tape that's a bit too wide or, perhaps in your case, is misaligned, and you may have the source of your problem.

I think that your tires will get better with time -- that seems to be the case with the ones I bought. During shipping and storage, they've been deformed and the rubber has a plastic "memory" . They will adapt to their new shape and take on a new "set." You might consider over-inflating them for a while -- I don't think you're going to get one of those suckers to pop off a CR18 rim if you keep it under 75 psi, as opposed to the 45 recommended on the sidewall.

edited:
Do you know why cloth rim tape is not prescribed for single wall rims? I like cloth myself -- we've got some rims that were put into service about 30 years ago with Velox cloth tape and it's still serviceable. Rubber and plastic after a couple years, not so much.

Velocivixen 02-26-15 02:27 AM

@desconhecido - I don't know why the LBS said it was not recommended. I'll ask next time I'm there.

Salubrious 02-26-15 10:47 AM

Cotton isn't great if spoke nipples are just on the other side. They could still cause a flat. Rubber offers a little more protection.

With modern double-wall rims like the CR18s, the concern is more about the inner spoke hole wearing on the inner tube.

desconhecido 02-26-15 11:52 AM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 17586084)
@desconhecido - I don't know why the LBS said it was not recommended. I'll ask next time I'm there.

Thanks, I'm curious.

desconhecido 02-26-15 12:06 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 17586818)
Cotton isn't great if spoke nipples are just on the other side. They could still cause a flat. Rubber offers a little more protection.

With modern double-wall rims like the CR18s, the concern is more about the inner spoke hole wearing on the inner tube.

Opening up old tire/wheel combinations, I've encountered old cloth tape on single wall rims -- those strips held together with the little cinching buckles -- and they've seemed to do their jobs protecting the tubes from the spoke heads/nipple tops. One problem that appears, though, is that the cloth tape seems to hold water against the rim and if it's a steel rim, like many of the old ones were, there tends to be rust formed on the rim just under the tape. This is a detriment. As far as protecting from spoke damage in general with single wall rims, their are boatloads of them around with Velox rim tape on them and my guess is that it works well.

So, my guess is that the rubber strips don't facilitate rust points as easily as cloth tape and it's chearper and quicker to apply.

As I mentioned previously, I've been using a 50 meter roll of 15mm Schwalbe tape that I ordered through Amazon to my door for about $25. That should be enough for about 25 rims. I like the tape -- it stays where you put it and it appears plenty strong to keep the tube from bulging into the wall cavity. I had been using 17mm to 19 mm Velox but reading what people say about wider rim tape interfering with tire seating of tires, I've opted to try the narrower and be more meticulous about application.

Salubrious 02-26-15 12:44 PM

I think if you look at those installations where cotton is used, you will find that the spoke nipples have been filed to eliminate burrs that could stick through the cotton.

adventurepdx 02-26-15 12:46 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 17585223)
@Velocivixen: surprised you find the Panaracers narrow....on Raleigh rims, they are just a hair short of being too wide, and are much wider than the "normal" 26 x 1 3/8 tires that came off.

Yeah, I found the Col de la Vies to be the widest of the tires in 590 size: billed as 26" x 1 1/2" or 40-590, compared to 35 or 37 mm width of the others. On my Raleigh Wayfarer I found that clearances were tight with this tire (esp. with using fenders) and had to play around with the fenders a bit, esp near the fork crown.


Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate (Post 17585806)
Absolutely no experience with those tires but they are touted as "la creme de la creme" on this thread.

They are, but, at the risk of sounding...heretical...(!) I will say that the Panaracer Col de la Vies are not "all that". When I had them on the Raleigh Wayfarer, I did appreciate the aesthetics and liked the ride, but hated the (lack of) flat protection. I came to realize that with my fat ass and the type of riding I typically do with it, that being commuting with loads, this tire wasn't the best fit. I went back to Schwalbe Delta Cruisers, which are not as "nice riding", but flat protection is heaps better. Of course YMMV, so if you are lighter than me and just use your three speed for a spin 'round the park, the Col de la Vies may just be what you want/need.

noglider 02-26-15 04:21 PM

One trick that sometimes helps seating a tire is to inflate it to 100 psi or more. Chances are, it won't blow off, and it can send the bead outward and into the right spot.

PalmettoUpstate 02-26-15 07:32 PM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 17587803)
One trick that sometimes helps seating a tire is to inflate it to 100 psi or more. Chances are, it won't blow off, and it can send the bead outward and into the right spot.

True enough. And I may have gotten that strategy from you originally Tom, thanx. I find this method seems to foolproof bead seating for me:

1. Lightly coat the tube with talc; Dollar Tree has it good and cheap.
2. Put only enough air into the tube to get the creases out of the rubber and install it into the tire and rim.
3. Inflate the tire to 15 lbs. and spin the tire on the bike while pounding it sharply with a rubber hammer as it spins. Do that enough to be sure that any "wrinkles" in the rubber tube will have smoothed out.
4. Add air up to the recommended max pressure and do the same thing - pounding with the rubber hammer - and look at the sidewalls to see if they're even throughout.
5. If you can still see lumps or depressions in the sidewall, over-inflate and hammer away and see what happens. There's a high degree of likelihood that the sidewall will "pop" into place.

Velocivixen 02-26-15 09:46 PM

I ended up getting Velox rim tape, installing, putting talcum powder into the tires themselves and on the tube. Inflate tube just enough to hold shape, place into tire. Put one side of tire onto rim. I actually did this without using tire lever, just my hands. Amazing. Then get the other side of the tire over the rim. I did this too with just my hands. Had to massage a little at the very last 6" or so. Mounted to bike. Went around and massaged tire so that the indicator ridge/line was exactly the same all the way around on both sides.

I've got the bike in the stand and both tires inflated to something like 70-80 psi. I have sticky notes on the bike reminding me to deflate to 45 psi before I ride.

When I bought the bike the rear wheel was further forward in the dropout (horizontal). For some reason, I guess I was afraid of the axle being so far forward in the dropout, I positioned it rearward and installed the new chain. I see there's a lot more room between tire & fender near the chain stay mount and very tight clearances between the rear of the tire/rear of fender. So, it looks that if I move the wheel forward so the tire is more equally situated within the fender I will need to get a half link. I'll have to see tomorrow. Right now, with the tire way overinflated the rear tire is rubbing on the rear part of the fender heavily. It seemed to be rubbing a tiny bit at 45 psi. I've got the fender adjusted to it's fullest extent, so may need to go forward a touch.

curbtender 02-26-15 10:45 PM

I keep rubbing alcohol in the tool chest for grips. It would probably work on tough tires too.

PalmettoUpstate 02-28-15 12:20 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 17588570)
I ended up getting Velox rim tape, installing, putting talcum powder into the tires themselves and on the tube. Inflate tube just enough to hold shape, place into tire. Put one side of tire onto rim. I actually did this without using tire lever, just my hands. Amazing. Then get the other side of the tire over the rim. I did this too with just my hands. Had to massage a little at the very last 6" or so. Mounted to bike. Went around and massaged tire so that the indicator ridge/line was exactly the same all the way around on both sides.

Yep, pretty much the best method that I have found is exactly that which you've described. I now skip the talc inside the tire and that may not optimize the tube seating as much but it has seemed to work well for me. Regarding "just my hands", I have found that this definitely varies from tire brand to tire brand. Indeed, IMO it may even vary from lot to lot in the same brand/model but I'd defer to someone who has mounted more tires than I have on that supposition. Last set of tires that I mounted were kind a bear; black garden variety Kenda K-40's non-HP. I had to really work the levers on both of them. Before that, last set was a pair Continental City Rides and, as you experienced, they mounted very easily by hand - I almost felt too easily!


When I bought the bike the rear wheel was further forward in the dropout (horizontal). For some reason, I guess I was afraid of the axle being so far forward in the dropout, I positioned it rearward and installed the new chain. I see there's a lot more room between tire & fender near the chain stay mount and very tight clearances between the rear of the tire/rear of fender. So, it looks that if I move the wheel forward so the tire is more equally situated within the fender I will need to get a half link. I'll have to see tomorrow. Right now, with the tire way overinflated the rear tire is rubbing on the rear part of the fender heavily. It seemed to be rubbing a tiny bit at 45 psi. I've got the fender adjusted to it's fullest extent, so may need to go forward a touch.
The Conti City Rides I mentioned above are fat and, doing pretty much as you describe - and indeed needlessly shortening one new chain - I was never able to get the rear wheel to roll smoothly inside the fender and just was able to get the front to do so. The reason I went to all the trouble was that I was attempting to make her "Promenade" Raleigh looks as close to "stock" as possible and it had come originally with the dual white stripe Dunlop tires that somewhat mimicked the auto tires of that era [1974].

Anyway, FWIW, I have a pair of these back there to replace the Contis with and they're not so fat so I have my fingers crossed that they'll work: http://www.amazon.com/Kenda-Street-K...rds=kenda+k-40


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