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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

yodatic 07-27-14 09:39 AM

I remember wrapping monofilament fishing line around the pawls on the end and then sliding the internal assy. almost all the way in the pulling the string out. tom

loubapache 07-27-14 10:49 AM

I was given a AW hub from some Schwinn bike. This one only has a two digit date code, along the width of the hub, and widely spaced. They look like a 6 and 9.

Anyway, I think I found a way to avoid the paw spring escape problem, after a long time fishing for the lost one in a different hub last night.

When I took out the assembly from the hub shell, I held the hub shell horizontal so the paw pins cannot fall out. Many instructions and videos say lift out the assemble straight up. That was when I lost one spring last night because the paw pin slid down.

Once the assembly is out and still in the horizontal position, I slide on a piece of cardboard with a center hole. Once the cardboard is on, hold it and then put the assembly in the vertical position and onto the vise. This could be a large fender washer or a small pice of thin wood with a hole drilled.

When insert the assembly into the hub shell, again, hold them horizontal.
Overhauling this one today was incident free.

PalmettoUpstate 07-27-14 07:57 PM

7 Attachment(s)
1937 Raleigh Sports Tourist

A Craigslist ad from July of 2014.

[h=2]1937 Men's Raleigh Sports 3-speed 23" frame - $150 (Brookline)[/h]For sale is a classic English-made men's Raleigh Sports Tourist from 1937. Size is the hard-to-find 23", which should fit folks from 5'9" to 6'2". Mostly original, including full chain case and stainless steel spokes, 26 x 1 3/8" wheels, caliper brakes, Terry saddle, rear Sturmey Archer 3-speed hub (marked AW-7), quadrant shifter, Raleigh rubber-block pedals, and rear spring-loaded rack. I've replaced the tires and tubes, and I don't think the grips are original, but otherwise it's the way it would have rolled out of the Nottingham factory over 75 years ago! The frame finish has plenty of scratches and scrapes, but the chromed parts will clean up well with some elbow grease. Mechanically this bike has been completely overhauled, rear hub works great, and it is ready for riding.
Firm price is $150 cash only, located in Brookline/Coolidge Corner.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=395905 http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=395906 http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=395907 http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=395908 http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=395909 http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=395910 http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=395911

JohnDThompson 07-27-14 08:20 PM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 16977699)
the AW is amazing. I still love working on them except for finagling the pawl springs in.

Probably the only place where the SW hub is superior to the AW. SW hubs are incredibly easy to service, but they still suffer all the limitations of any SW hub.

wahoonc 07-27-14 08:25 PM


Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate (Post 16980251)
1937 Raleigh Sports Tourist

A Craigslist ad from July of 2014.

[h=2]1937 Men's Raleigh Sports 3-speed 23" frame - $150 (Brookline)[/h]For sale is a classic English-made men's Raleigh Sports Tourist from 1937. Size is the hard-to-find 23", which should fit folks from 5'9" to 6'2". Mostly original, including full chain case and stainless steel spokes, 26 x 1 3/8" wheels, caliper brakes, Terry saddle, rear Sturmey Archer 3-speed hub (marked AW-7), quadrant shifter, Raleigh rubber-block pedals, and rear spring-loaded rack. I've replaced the tires and tubes, and I don't think the grips are original, but otherwise it's the way it would have rolled out of the Nottingham factory over 75 years ago! The frame finish has plenty of scratches and scrapes, but the chromed parts will clean up well with some elbow grease. Mechanically this bike has been completely overhauled, rear hub works great, and it is ready for riding.
Firm price is $150 cash only, located in Brookline/Coolidge Corner.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=395905 http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=395906 http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=395907 http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=395908 http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=395909 http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=395910 http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=395911

I am waiting until Monday before I call someone to go get that for me...

Aaron :)

noglider 07-28-14 09:27 AM


Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 16980333)
Probably the only place where the SW hub is superior to the AW. SW hubs are incredibly easy to service, but they still suffer all the limitations of any SW hub.

Heh. In other words, deal with it. The pawl springs are hard to put in, but you only have to do it once every 40 years. In contrast with the SW, which, if I understand right, addressed this problem by having moon-shaped pawls that have no springs. I suppose the intention was that the pawls would swing back and forth from momentum, but that can only work if you can control the viscosity of the oil perfectly, which is, in retrospect, a preposterous hope.

Sixty Fiver 07-28-14 09:48 AM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 16981633)
Heh. In other words, deal with it. The pawl springs are hard to put in, but you only have to do it once every 40 years. In contrast with the SW, which, if I understand right, addressed this problem by having moon-shaped pawls that have no springs. I suppose the intention was that the pawls would swing back and forth from momentum, but that can only work if you can control the viscosity of the oil perfectly, which is, in retrospect, a preposterous hope.

If the SW had been designed with pawl springs it would have overcome many of the deficiencies in the hub... the design was sound and predates the AW but the execution was poor as it required much more exact tolerances and a higher level of machining quality which was not possible.

I have a few SW hubs that I have been meaning to rebuild or combine into one but they have languished in my shop for years...

randyjawa 07-28-14 02:17 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Though not really a great fan of three speed roadsters, I could not resist this lovely old and little used Raleigh Superbe...

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=396041 http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=396042

Cosmetically, nice with some storage scratches and mechanically, almost unrideable due to one tiny broken plastic piece...

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=396040

The light works great, powered by the SA dyno hub and, believe it or not, this old roadster actually came with the original key for the Raleigh fork lock...

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=396043

Salubrious 07-28-14 02:44 PM

^^ I've said this before and it bears repeating: Don't leave the key in the fork- keep it on your key fob. If you leave it in the fork Bad Things Happen- the key in the lock frees the lock to move, which can allow the fork lock to engage the steering tube. If that happens while you are riding, you fall down instantly and without warning.

Sixty Fiver 07-28-14 03:53 PM


Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate (Post 16980251)
1937 Raleigh Sports Tourist

A Craigslist ad from July of 2014.

[h=2]1937 Men's Raleigh Sports 3-speed 23" frame - $150 (Brookline)[/h]For sale is a classic English-made men's Raleigh Sports Tourist from 1937. Size is the hard-to-find 23", which should fit folks from 5'9" to 6'2". Mostly original, including full chain case and stainless steel spokes, 26 x 1 3/8" wheels, caliper brakes, Terry saddle, rear Sturmey Archer 3-speed hub (marked AW-7), quadrant shifter, Raleigh rubber-block pedals, and rear spring-loaded rack. I've replaced the tires and tubes, and I don't think the grips are original, but otherwise it's the way it would have rolled out of the Nottingham factory over 75 years ago! The frame finish has plenty of scratches and scrapes, but the chromed parts will clean up well with some elbow grease. Mechanically this bike has been completely overhauled, rear hub works great, and it is ready for riding.
Firm price is $150 cash only, located in Brookline/Coolidge Corner.

If I lived closer it would be gone already...

Sixty Fiver 07-28-14 03:57 PM


Originally Posted by NormanF (Post 16976113)
A new hub - 5 speed Sturmey Archer or 7 speed Shimano Nexus would give you a wider range gearing than the old 3 speed hub. Drum brakes would provide reliable all weather stopping power. And some pretty Honjo hammered fenders would really bring your Hercules back to life.

I really like the 7 speed Nexus on my Moulton as it has such even gear steps and the expanded gear range is also nice for a bicycle that sees a lot more varied terrain but my 3 speed Raleigh Sports (the bike that kicked off this thread) is also pretty wonderful and the simplicity of the AW cannot be overlooked.

That Raleigh also goes places... this was taken almost a year ago when I was on my way to the Heritage Festival and took the back way.

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikep...otle%20(2).JPG

PalmettoUpstate 07-28-14 04:01 PM


Originally Posted by wahoonc (Post 16980349)
I am waiting until Monday before I call someone to go get that for me...

Aaron :)

Looks like a good one and what a nice addition to any collection. Good luck!

PalmettoUpstate 07-28-14 04:04 PM


Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 16983060)
If I lived closer it would be gone already...

Verily.

[drool]

Same here.

JohnDThompson 07-28-14 08:17 PM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 16981633)
the SW, which, if I understand right, addressed this problem by having moon-shaped pawls that have no springs. I suppose the intention was that the pawls would swing back and forth from momentum, but that can only work if you can control the viscosity of the oil perfectly, which is, in retrospect, a preposterous hope.

Actually, ramps in the pawl ring cause the pawl to rock back and forth in a manner that engages the pawl ring with pedal pressure but over-rides the pawls when freewheeling. The biggest problem I encountered is that it can take a while for the pawls to engage, particularly in cold weather when several complete rotations of the crank may occur before they engage!


Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 16981713)
If the SW had been designed with pawl springs it would have overcome many of the deficiencies in the hub... the design was sound and predates the AW but the execution was poor as it required much more exact tolerances and a higher level of machining quality which was not possible.

Sheldon Brown's SW page describes a modification to the SW pawl ring to give it sprung pawls:

http://sheldonbrown.com/sw_files/image019.jfif

I have an SW with this modification and it does work -- for a while. The problem is that the pawl rocks back and forth on the flat spring and eventually wears through it, requiring replacement of the spring.

Sixty Fiver 07-29-14 12:06 AM


Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 16983873)
Actually, ramps in the pawl ring cause the pawl to rock back and forth in a manner that engages the pawl ring with pedal pressure but over-rides the pawls when freewheeling. The biggest problem I encountered is that it can take a while for the pawls to engage, particularly in cold weather when several complete rotations of the crank may occur before they engage!



Sheldon Brown's SW page describes a modification to the SW pawl ring to give it sprung pawls:

http://sheldonbrown.com/sw_files/image019.jfif

I have an SW with this modification and it does work -- for a while. The problem is that the pawl rocks back and forth on the flat spring and eventually wears through it, requiring replacement of the spring.

Sheldon and I talked about the SW... I liked his comment that SW stood for "seldom works" and the amount of extra work it takes to make them functional really isn't worth it when you can run an AW which stands for "always works".

Even latter day AW hubs of British origin, with their less than great workmanship, still provide great service although they are nothing like AW hubs from the 40's and late 50's which are noticeably smoother and when you open them up you can see how much nicer the machining was when the tooling was fresh.

noglider 07-29-14 08:40 AM


Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 16984397)
nothing like AW hubs from the 40's and late 50's which are noticeably smoother and when you open them up you can see how much nicer the machining was when the tooling was fresh.

Aha, that explains a lot. Also, I spoke with John S Allen about S-A hubs, back in 1981. Allen was one of Sheldon's friends. He said up until a certain year, they used "cyanide hardening" which I presume is a process for hardening steel using cyanide. Government regulation made that unavailable, perhaps for good reason, but hard steel is and was a good thing.

loubapache 07-29-14 08:42 AM

This was posted a while ago on this thread and I wonder if anyone has experience with it.

Old English Style Men's model Roadster
Antique Replicas: Gentlemen's Roadster - Rideable Bicycle Replicas

http://www.hiwheel.com/images/antiqu...tRoadster1.jpg

Sixty Fiver 07-29-14 09:49 AM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 16985098)
Aha, that explains a lot. Also, I spoke with John S Allen about S-A hubs, back in 1981. Allen was one of Sheldon's friends. He said up until a certain year, they used "cyanide hardening" which I presume is a process for hardening steel using cyanide. Government regulation made that unavailable, perhaps for good reason, but hard steel is and was a good thing.

When Sunrace bought Sturmey Archer they thought they could use the tooling to build hubs... it was in such bad repair that they had to completely re-tool and with a little re-design the new AW has shown itself to be a very well made and reliable hub.

The 8 speed appears to be a little more finicky but then, you are dealing with a more complex hub while the 5 speed has been another success in that the design has been well proven over decades and is also simpler.

arex 07-29-14 09:55 AM


Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 16985335)
When Sunrace bought Sturmey Archer they thought they could use the tooling to build hubs... it was in such bad repair that they had to completely re-tool and with a little re-design the new AW has shown itself to be a very well made and reliable hub.

The 8 speed appears to be a little more finicky but then, you are dealing with a more complex hub while the 5 speed has been another success in that the design has been well proven over decades and is also simpler.

This is good...I don't feel so bad about using a new hub now.

noglider 07-29-14 10:27 AM


Originally Posted by arex (Post 16985357)
This is good...I don't feel so bad about using a new hub now.

Not at all! The new Sturmey Archer makes products that are arguably better than the old company. The product diversity is huge. This is clearly a company of bike geeks. Take a look at the web site. Great stuff.

I have a new SA drum brake front hub. It's gorgeous, and it works well, too.

loubapache 07-29-14 10:43 AM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 16985497)
I have a new SA drum brake front hub. It's gorgeous, and it works well, too.

Tom:

Which hub on what rim? I am researching to built a wheel with my first drum brake hub.

noglider 07-29-14 02:22 PM


Originally Posted by loubapache (Post 16985547)
Tom:

Which hub on what rim? I am researching to built a wheel with my first drum brake hub.

It's the X-FD, with the 70mm drum. Be careful before you buy. You may be wise to get the combo hub that has both the drum brake and the dynamo.

It's on a 20" aluminum, on my Raleigh Twenty, which may live its life as a project bike, not a rider.

markk900 07-30-14 05:58 PM

Not sure if this is better here or in the "Where'd you ride today?" thread but just out for a lovely evening ride (perfect weather) and came across the following scene:

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps0676c59a.jpg

Local pipe band practicing just across the river from where I live. I could almost feel the Humber jump forward as it heard sounds from (almost) home

Narhay 08-05-14 01:15 AM

After vowing to rid myself of my men's frame '78 Superbe because of recurring crank and bottom bracket issues, (Raleigh threading...) and telling myself to never again touch a 3 speed, I have that bike, an olive green women's '72 Superbe sitting in my living room and a light blue '80 women's Sports sitting in my storage locker. The ladies superbe paint was rough and I used it as a donor bike for some choice bits my men's frame 23" '78 would have liked.

Suddenly I had enough parts to make the ladies superbe whole again, so I started lacing on some alloy rims. After all this beautification it felt a sin to hang all these nice parts on a frame with poor paint. Well, Saturday rolls around and a ladies sports pops up on Craigslist for $15. It has some rust issues from sitting under a porch but the frame paint is beautiful and it can donate some of its nicer parts to make a whole bike.

Long story short I can't seem to rid myself of these things and they follow me home.

Time Trialer 08-06-14 04:02 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Here is my BSA with a 1948 AW hub. I have a more detailed post here: http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...tml?highlight=

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=397658

Sixty Fiver 08-12-14 03:16 PM

Time to pull this thread up by it's bootstraps... :D

This beautiful Dutch girl stopped by my shop today and she is English powered... by a Sturmey Archer 4 speed (alloy hub shell). Her owner said that he bought this for his girlfriend in Holland after the war (1946) when bicycles became available and then he and his wife (the girlfriend) emigrated to Canada.

He said it has been sitting in his garage ever since she passed away in 2009 and now he is looking to find this girl a new home.

The condition is astounding and she rides as new.

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikep...neet%20(1).JPG

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikep...neet%20(3).JPG

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikep...neet%20(7).JPG

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikep...neet%20(9).JPG

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikep...eet%20(11).JPG

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikep...eet%20(12).JPG

wahoonc 08-13-14 03:07 AM

Sweet! Unfortunately Magneet is a fallen flag now. :(

I have a very similar chain ring cover on my Columbia Commuter II which just happens to have been built by... Magneet!

Aaron :)

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3822/...f679515c_c.jpg

Sixty Fiver 08-13-14 08:23 AM


Originally Posted by wahoonc (Post 17031730)
Sweet! Unfortunately Magneet is a fallen flag now. :(

I have a very similar chain ring cover on my Columbia Commuter II which just happens to have been built by... Magneet!

Aaron :)

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3822/...f679515c_c.jpg

Magneet seems to have been bought by Batavus in 1969 and seems to have been well regarded for building "lightweight" bicycles... and the Magneet roadster was lighter than a comparable Raleigh which would speak to it having lighter tubes since the rest of the parts were very similar.

The Columbia is super cool.

michael k 08-13-14 12:36 PM

Are you keeping her? She is Magneet!


Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 17030247)


Sixty Fiver 08-13-14 01:37 PM


Originally Posted by michael k (Post 17033089)
Are you keeping her? She is Magneet!

She just stopped by for an appraisal...


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