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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

MooneyBloke 03-13-23 03:26 PM

My LBS just did me a solid! After spending way too much time net shopping for Conti cement either in can or tube, I went by my LBS to see if they'd give me a bulk deal on the tubes, and the head mech sold me a 12pk of tubes for an unexpectedly low $30. One more ongoing annoyance in the done basket. :D

Classtime 03-13-23 08:22 PM

Question:
When you have two nice wheel sets -- one clincher and one tubular that go with your weekend 50 mile local ride nice bike, which wheel set to you choose under the following conditions?
Currently wet roads, fog, mist, and light rain likely for the rest of the day.

When it's wet, I take the clinchers. How about you?

Drillium Dude 03-13-23 09:02 PM


Originally Posted by Positron400 (Post 22821673)

If you puncture on the road, what do you do? Tape?

Yes. I bring along a spare roll of tape - fits in the saddle bag easily. Knock on wood, I've not had to put it to use out in the wild yet, but I'm ready to give it a go should the opportunity (misfortune?) arise.

Apologies for the late reply; been AFBF for a minute.

DD

Drillium Dude 03-13-23 09:15 PM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22821692)

I need some info on this, too. I bought a bottle of Stan's Sealant and valve-core remover, and they say that will seal up a puncture, but I have never done this before.

From what I've heard from others, Stan's is a kind of stop-gap (particularly with latex tubes - which are encased within my current pair of Vittoria Corsa Control G+ tubs). Because others' reports of Stan's tendency to lump up over time after using it in latex tubes, I'm on the fence. Full disclosure: I have yet to use it myself; I'm being wary going this route simply based upon anecdotal evidence. Could be it works fine in the long run - but I have seen a photo or two of tubes treated with sealant. They ended up resembling link sausage when the sealant dried in clumps!

DD

Drillium Dude 03-13-23 09:17 PM


Originally Posted by L134 (Post 22821819)

I don't race...

I'm a Cat 6, myself ;)

DD

SwimmerMike 03-13-23 09:28 PM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 22828785)
Question:
When you have two nice wheel sets -- one clincher and one tubular that go with your weekend 50 mile local ride nice bike, which wheel set to you choose under the following conditions?
Currently wet roads, fog, mist, and light rain likely for the rest of the day.

When it's wet, I take the clinchers. How about you?

Been having to answer that question a lot lately. There’s a lot of debris on the road so I like to go with some heavier clinchers since my tubulars are pretty lightweight. Today there was so much on the road that I felt like I was off road on my gravel bike. I was glad I had the heavier clinchers.

DiabloScott 03-13-23 09:54 PM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 22828785)
Question:
When you have two nice wheel sets -- one clincher and one tubular that go with your weekend 50 mile local ride nice bike, which wheel set to you choose under the following conditions?
Currently wet roads, fog, mist, and light rain likely for the rest of the day.

When it's wet, I take the clinchers. How about you?

My tubulars are on my winter/classic/Eroica bike - and the tires are Pave 28mm so they go great in the wet (not much broken glass and such on my ride)
And my clinchers are on my summer/fast/light weight bike and the tires are light weight 25mm and they never get wet and that bike never gets dirty.

Drillium Dude 03-13-23 10:07 PM


Originally Posted by seedsbelize2 (Post 22822505)

IIRC, Drillium Dude can speak to this phenomenon...

I sure can! Though I was quite lucky in that it was only 3 miles, and I was wearing flat-soled touring shoes.

Still and all, that 3 mile walk was preferable to the 15+ miles I was obliged to ride standing up after the carbon shell of my Flite Evo filed for a divorce from the saddle rails :)

DD

1989Pre 03-14-23 04:13 AM


Originally Posted by Drillium Dude (Post 22828824)
From what I've heard from others, Stan's is a kind of stop-gap (particularly with latex tubes - which are encased within my current pair of Vittoria Corsa Control G+ tubs). Because others' reports of Stan's tendency to lump up over time after using it in latex tubes, I'm on the fence. Full disclosure: I have yet to use it myself; I'm being wary going this route simply based upon anecdotal evidence. Could be it works fine in the long run - but I have seen a photo or two of tubes treated with sealant. They ended up resembling link sausage when the sealant dried in clumps!

DD

Thanks. Yeah, I don't think I will be taking the risk with this stuff. I'll just bring another tire. I appreciate the feedback.

Road Fan 03-17-23 07:44 AM


Originally Posted by USAZorro (Post 1831909)
Here are a few things I've learned about preparing tubulars for installation in the past 6-7 months.

When you get them, inflate them to about 40 psi - don't mount them on anything yet.

After a few days (maybe a week), deflate, and mount them on a rim (no glue), and inflate to about 40 psi again.

After another week (although it might be best to just leave them stretched over the rim until you want to glue them), they should be nicely stretched, and quite a bit easier to manage when you do go to glue them on.

Also, a few days before you want to glue them on, put a layer of adhesive onto the rim(s) you're going to mount the tire(s) to.

Unless you're dealing with really old tubulars, I suggest using 3-M Fast Tack for glue. I must say though that I've heard that Fast-Tack can cause the base tape on older tubulars to separate from the tires. I had a pair of old Wolbers that this happened with, but I haven't had it happen on any of the other tires I've used. Anyhow, here's a technique that I've used to mount tires with very little mess. I don't ride very aggressively, so I haven't ridden on any hairy, high-speed descents, so I can't vouch for how this holds under those conditions.

Before you start, have some mineral spirits and a clean cloth rag at hand. Sit in a plastic chair in a clean well ventilated space, and put on vinyl or latex gloves - the very thin ones. Deflate the tire, put the stem of the tire into the hole in the rim. Make sure you have the tire oriented the way you want it. Once the tire is on the rim, sit in the chair, hold the rim with the stem up. Grasp the tire about one spoke hole away from the stem and lift it up. Squeeze a bit of glue onto the exposed sections of the rim. Move the glue tube around to get a light coating on the entire surface. Release the tire, being certain that the base tape is centered, rotate the rim two spoke holes, and repeat the process. Do this until you make it back to the stem.

If you get any glue on the tire, rim, spokes or yourself, wipe it off immediately. Use mineral spirits as necessary to clean the glue from any metal that it gets on.

Once you've completed the gluing, inflate to about 25 psi. If any glue oozes onto the tire or rim, wipe it off immediately. Also make any manipulations you may want to center the tire if it hasn't gone on quite as straight as you want. You may need to decrease the pressure in the tire to do this. After 30 minutes, inflate the tire to about 40 psi and let the rim sit over night. I've had no problems riding on the tires the next day.

This stuff is all true. It's also true that if you need to install a new tubular right away after getting them home, you can just go ahead and install one. The minimum is to do a trial stretch of a dry tire, to see if you need to hand-stretch it, before you apply the glue. If the tire slips onto the rim easy enough for you, you can just pull it off and jump to the instructions about gluing. If it does not go on easy you can try some stretching. Tom Cuthbertson (Anybody's Bike Book, 1971 pp 99 - 101) recommended:

> loop the tire into a figure-8
> stand where you can be safe on one foot (where you can lean on something solid), and put one of the loops under a crooked or bent knee with your other leg mainly straight
> put one arm and shoulder through the upper loop on the same side of your body
> make yourself solid on one leg by leaning on the wall or whatever, and straighten slowly to gently stretch the tire
> when you feel it's enough do a trial slip-on; if it goes as smoothly as you need, start the gluing.

He also recommend after the glued tire is straightened on the rim, to inflate full pressure (CONI calls this "blocked") for half a day before riding. In my experience it works out ok if you just inflate it fully and then ride it. You want the blocking to settle the tire into its bed of glue. In my experience that is adequate for road riding. It might not be good enough for actual road racing - crits and longer rides.

Another way to stretch with more force (not necessarily recommended), is to drape the tire across your back and riding on the points of your shoulders, and catch the other side of the tire under two feet. You can press up gently as does an Olympic power lifter, but listening and feeling for the elasticity of the tire. I always find this loosens the tire, but I'm worried about excessive strain on the tire. That's why I say its not necessarily recommended. At the same time I haven't had any carcass failures on tires I've stretched, as far as I know. It brings the strength of two legs into the action, but most of us on this site probably have stronger legs than most modern Internet readers!

FWIW, I've always been reluctant to use Fast-tack, because of the apparent risk of losing the base tapes. If it is stuck so tightly, I'll probably destroy the rim strip pulling it away from the rim, the tire seems useless without a base tape, and I don't know what accessible glue is stronger than rim cement and compatible with the chemicals in the carcass of the tire. I don't accept that the reduction in mounting time that results is worth the loss of an otherwise good and pricey tubular tire, or to send the whole tire to Tire Alert to have a new base tape installed. If one lives with a stock of ready tubulars, ok, but while I have a lot of them I still don't want to sacrifice the use of my tire. Tubulars are not such a novelty to me that I would happily go out and drop >$200 on a pair of FMBs just because I now have a mismatched bike. I started using tubulars in 1969.

1989Pre 03-17-23 08:57 AM

Hi. Me again. I pumped my tires up to about 160 p.s.i. a week-or-so ago, and haven't ridden the bike yet. Now, both my tires are flat. Does air leak out of tubular tires more quickly? Or is it just from the fact that the p.s.i. is so high? The bike has not been in the cold.

Classtime 03-17-23 09:13 AM

What tires are they? If they have latex tubes, that will happen..

DiabloScott 03-17-23 09:13 AM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22832156)
Hi. Me again. I pumped my tires up to about 160 p.s.i. a week-or-so ago, and haven't ridden the bike yet. Now, both my tires are flat. Does air leak out of tubular tires more quickly? Or is it just from the fact that the p.s.i. is so high? The bike has not been in the cold.

Likely latex innertubes - they don't exactly leak, but air diffuses through the rubber a lot faster than butyl. Same is true for latex innertubes in clinchers. A week will usually drop the pressure too low to ride.
Doesn't mean you "don't" have a leak though.

1989Pre 03-17-23 09:22 AM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 22832166)
What tires are they? If they have latex tubes, that will happen..

Hi. Here they are. I don't know what the "tube" is made out of. Thanks.

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/e...-tire/p/12295/

obrentharris 03-17-23 01:00 PM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22832173)
Hi. Here they are. I don't know what the "tube" is made out of. Thanks.

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/e...-tire/p/12295/

They are advertised as super supple. That usually means latex tubes. What you experienced is perfectly normal. I find that latex tubes weep enough air that I have to pump them back to pressure every ride.
Brent

squirtdad 03-17-23 04:59 PM


Originally Posted by Drillium Dude (Post 22828824)
From what I've heard from others, Stan's is a kind of stop-gap (particularly with latex tubes - which are encased within my current pair of Vittoria Corsa Control G+ tubs). Because others' reports of Stan's tendency to lump up over time after using it in latex tubes, I'm on the fence. Full disclosure: I have yet to use it myself; I'm being wary going this route simply based upon anecdotal evidence. Could be it works fine in the long run - but I have seen a photo or two of tubes treated with sealant. They ended up resembling link sausage when the sealant dried in clumps!

DD

fwiw on tubes in clinchers I have had better results with sealling from Caffe Latex than I had with stans or orange seal.

Drillium Dude 03-17-23 05:36 PM


Originally Posted by DiabloScott (Post 22832167)

A week will usually drop the pressure too low to ride.

A day or two for me - but I'm putting 135-145psi in them. Vittoria Corsa Control G+ w/ latex tubes.

Good upper body exercise, though, so win/win :)

DD

1989Pre 03-18-23 06:39 AM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 22832166)
What tires are they? If they have latex tubes, that will happen..

I've never been so happy about a pair of flat tires, before.

Positron400 03-18-23 07:37 AM

Turns out i might have to join the tubeless team after all :D - Got my hands on a Puch (AD) Royal force which came with tubular tires. Will have to put that glue to good use now :D

L134 03-18-23 08:11 AM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22832156)
Hi. Me again. I pumped my tires up to about 160 p.s.i. a week-or-so ago, and haven't ridden the bike yet. Now, both my tires are flat. Does air leak out of tubular tires more quickly? Or is it just from the fact that the p.s.i. is so high? The bike has not been in the cold.

You might also check to make sure the valve cores are fully seated. I had a couple new Veloflex Raven tires that lost pressure faster than I expected even for latex tubes. Finally checked (should have been the first thing) the valves and both weren't fully seated.

Drillium Dude 03-19-23 01:16 AM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 22828785)

Question:

When you have two nice wheel sets -- one clincher and one tubular that go with your weekend 50 mile local ride nice bike, which wheel set to you choose under the following conditions? Currently wet roads, fog, mist, and light rain likely for the rest of the day.

When it's wet, I take the clinchers. How about you?

I avoid riding in the wet (but I've been caught out by sudden weather changes mid-ride more than once), but if I did: clinchers every time.

Road debris tends to stick around longer in wet conditions, and said debris is a common cause of punctures. I'd rather hole a tube riding with clinchers than tubulars. Plus, imagine trying to swap out a spare tubular - particularly if using tape vice glue - in wet, nasty conditions.

That be my take.

DD

masi61 03-19-23 08:35 AM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 22828785)
Question:
When you have two nice wheel sets -- one clincher and one tubular that go with your weekend 50 mile local ride nice bike, which wheel set to you choose under the following conditions?
Currently wet roads, fog, mist, and light rain likely for the rest of the day.

When it's wet, I take the clinchers. How about you?

:

my interest has been triggered by this query...


Originally Posted by Drillium Dude (Post 22833665)
I avoid riding in the wet (but I've been caught out by sudden weather changes mid-ride more than once), but if I did: clinchers every time.

Road debris tends to stick around longer in wet conditions, and said debris is a common cause of punctures. I'd rather hole a tube riding with clinchers than tubulars. Plus, imagine trying to swap out a spare tubular - particularly if using tape vice glue - in wet, nasty conditions.

That be my take.

DD

What about "rain" tires? From what I can tell these tubulars : Michelin Power Cup Racing Line Tubular Tire - 25-622 - black | BIKE24

would be very grippy in the wet. Probably too nice to trash this way, but I wouldn't mind riding a set of tubulars like this in the wet.

Classtime 03-19-23 09:16 AM

Like DD pointed out, punctures are more likely when the roads are wet.

masi61 03-19-23 10:19 AM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 22833866)
Like DD pointed out, punctures are more likely when the roads are wet.

Maybe so. My titanium Veritas (road bike) is clad with road tubeless tires that ride well in the wet & so long as they have had their sealant refreshed are pretty impervious to flats…

But the crazy side of me STILL desires a road racing set-up with grippy (tubular) rain tires just to check out the ride. Black sidewalls would be a better choice than tan sidewalls here. We all know how gross tan sidewall tubulars look after heavy rain riding…

79pmooney 03-19-23 11:17 AM


Originally Posted by Drillium Dude (Post 22833665)
I avoid riding in the wet (but I've been caught out by sudden weather changes mid-ride more than once), but if I did: clinchers every time.

Road debris tends to stick around longer in wet conditions, and said debris is a common cause of punctures. I'd rather hole a tube riding with clinchers than tubulars. Plus, imagine trying to swap out a spare tubular - particularly if using tape vice glue - in wet, nasty conditions.

That be my take.

DD

I commuted for years on sewups. Cheap cottons and cheap diamond tread cyclocross in snow country winter. One reason was that tire changes in foul weather were no harder than in the best of conditions. Now I never used tape. Always Tubasti. Peel flatted tire off, stick the spare on, ride carefully the first few miles and abstain from hard cornering. Re-glue when I got home,

I also used glass catchers with my fenders because the rear fender prevented the hand wipe and at night or in rain, I often couldn't see glass. Rear catcher mounted at the chainstay bridge, front under the crown. I think I drilled out the fender rivets and replaced them with screws but its been a long time.

Timely topic! My new fenders for my TiCycles just arrived at the shop. SKS Blumels with the Esge silver/plastic/metal technology. To be painted with 2-part yellow epoxy paint. Yellow fenders for that fire engine red bike - my vision from conception. Who knew yellow road fenders would be so hard to get? Need to do this glass catcher drilling before paint! (That bike is my par excellence go anywhere, climb anything all weather bike. Fenders, ti, sealed bearings. Water doesn't phase it. Race short chainstays to put enough weight on the rear tire to grip in the wet when I'm out of the saddle and pulling as hard as I can. A real Pacific NW bike.)

79pmooney 03-19-23 11:43 AM

My intro back to clinchers ~1988. Living in the Ballard community of Seattle. Used to ride north following the Puget Sound shore but in a couple of miles on very quiet roads. There was a descent into Woodinville that had a 90 degree bend at the bottom. I knew it very well and had done it many times in the wet on sewups. First time with clinchers - winter NW wet. Maybe light ran but I recall seeing OK. Hit that turn and knew instantly I did not have the traction to make it. Expressed the F word very load because I knew exactly what I was in for. The road rash, the bruises, the wet dirty ... At the apex, tires let go and I went for the slide. Outcome exactly as expected.

As soon as I slid to a stop, an attractive young lady appeared. Had to apologize for what she just heard.

And clincher vs tubular for cornering traction? The new clinchers have very, very good tread (the Vittoria Open Paves and I assume the G2.0 Controls; the regular G+ are very good) but I bet, in the real world, the tubulars with the same casing and tread do better. And I've done my crashes. I won't take either to their limit unless that is what I have to do to stay ER free. So someone else is going to have to do that research. (I'd have to glue the tubbies on hard to max out the turns. If I raced, yeah, but otherwise? I'll take the knowledge that I will roll the tire before the tread slips so I have a tire feasible to change on the road. (I ride with brakes for a reason.)

Now, if my hunches are right, my Vitt G2.0 Control 30c tubulars ought to grip like flypaper.

Drillium Dude 03-19-23 01:38 PM


Originally Posted by masi61 (Post 22833815)
:

What about "rain" tires? From what I can tell these tubulars : Michelin Power Cup Racing Line Tubular Tire - 25-622 - black | BIKE24 would be very grippy in the wet.

Speaking only for myself, it's not a matter of grip.

Drive train components wear exponentially faster when used in wet conditions as the road debris I mentioned affixes itself to the chain, which in turn transfers it to the rings and cogs. It's akin to sandpaper slowly but surely wearing away at the moving parts. Brake pads transfer that same grit to the rim's braking surfaces, which in turn gets onto the tire sidewalls; both actions shorten the life of the rims and tires.

Rain-riding - for me - is a zero-sum game, because I'm not training, touring, or commuting, but riding primarily for fun and fitness. I can always wait for the next sunny and clear day :)

DD

Drillium Dude 03-19-23 01:49 PM


Originally Posted by masi61 (Post 22833924)

But the crazy side of me STILL desires a road racing set-up with grippy (tubular) rain tires just to check out the ride. Black sidewalls would be a better choice than tan sidewalls here.

We all know how gross tan sidewall tubulars look after heavy rain riding…

We're talking aesthetics here, but I'm in total agreement! It's also been shown the additional brake shoe residue build-up serves a role in decreasing the life of the tire's sidewalls if not cleaned off between wet rides.

Full disclosure: I also absolutely hate deep-cleaning a bike I've been obliged to ride in wet conditions. I feel more than a bit peeved at myself for having subjected my bike(s) to such abuse, when all they've ever done for me is provide innumerable moments of unadulterated happiness ;)

DD

masi61 03-19-23 02:59 PM


Originally Posted by Drillium Dude (Post 22834129)
Speaking only for myself, it's not a matter of grip.

Drive train components wear exponentially faster when used in wet conditions as the road debris I mentioned affixes itself to the chain, which in turn transfers it to the rings and cogs. It's akin to sandpaper slowly but surely wearing away at the moving parts. Brake pads transfer that same grit to the rim's braking surfaces, which in turn gets onto the tire sidewalls; both actions shorten the life of the rims and tires.

Rain-riding - for me - is a zero-sum game, because I'm not training, touring, or commuting, but riding primarily for fun and fitness. I can always wait for the next sunny and clear day :)

DD


Originally Posted by Drillium Dude (Post 22834141)
We're talking aesthetics here, but I'm in total agreement! It's also been shown the additional brake shoe residue build-up serves a role in decreasing the life of the tire's sidewalls if not cleaned off between wet rides.

Full disclosure: I also absolutely hate deep-cleaning a bike I've been obliged to ride in wet conditions. I feel more than a bit peeved at myself for having subjected my bike(s) to such abuse, when all they've ever done for me is provide innumerable moments of unadulterated happiness ;)

DD

I have made washing and polishing my bikes a fun ritual that I try to stay caught up on. Rain rides are adventure for me and some of my best training is done on the crap days. I have a soft nylon paint brush that flows water through a ball valve when connected to the garden hose. I spray a dilute solution of Dawn dish detergent with Simple Green then scrub my tire sidewalls, rim sidewalls, take a toothbrush to my rim brake pads and rinse with clear water. The whole process goes quickly and I also wear a magnifier to be able to visualize where the gritty nastiness lives.

My tubeless wheelset is built with Chinese made DT Swiss R460 tubeless compatible rims. The sidewall machining on these is good and the rims themselves I only paid about $40 each for (pre-Covid pricing). I'm about to add at least one tubular tire/wheel bike to the stable here soon. The Velocity Major Tom rims have nicely machined sidewalls but they are also mirror polished. I may well cringe if I ride these in the rain and abrade up the pristine sidewalls. Maybe I will report back on the ride of this classic/modern wheelset when it takes its maiden voyage on my rescused size 57 silver Masi Gran Criterium.

Drillium Dude 03-19-23 04:12 PM


Originally Posted by masi61 (Post 22834204)

I have made washing and polishing my bikes a fun ritual that I try to stay caught up on. Rain rides are adventure for me and some of my best training is done on the crap days. I have a soft nylon paint brush that flows water through a ball valve when connected to the garden hose. I spray a dilute solution of Dawn dish detergent with Simple Green then scrub my tire sidewalls, rim sidewalls, take a toothbrush to my rim brake pads and rinse with clear water. The whole process goes quickly and I also wear a magnifier to be able to visualize where the gritty nastiness lives.

My tubeless wheelset is built with Chinese made DT Swiss R460 tubeless compatible rims. The sidewall machining on these is good and the rims themselves I only paid about $40 each for (pre-Covid pricing). I'm about to add at least one tubular tire/wheel bike to the stable here soon. The Velocity Major Tom rims have nicely machined sidewalls but they are also mirror polished. I may well cringe if I ride these in the rain and abrade up the pristine sidewalls. Maybe I will report back on the ride of this classic/modern wheelset when it takes its maiden voyage on my rescused size 57 silver Masi Gran Criterium.

I don't mind tedious work like drilling or sanding/laying down numerous coats of clear on a CF saddle - but I do absolutely abhor deep-cleaning. Why? Because the end state is technically no different than if I simply didn't ride my bike in inclement weather. I suppose in that analysis, I'm a pragmatist at heart. I'll do the work to see an improvement as a result, but not to undo something - particularly if I could've avoided it from the jump. I understand others enjoy a deep-clean process, and that it can be a 'zen' thing to them - a similar example that comes to mind are those who love every aspect of wrenching (while I have a deep aversion to tearing down hubs and pedals, and adjusting their bearings - and can't build a wheel to save my life!). Different strokes!

In addition, while deep-cleaning after the fact is a good thing, there's no way to actively deep-clean during the ride. That's when the slow but constant additional wear is happening to the components. I've been running the same chainring pair, for example, on the Colnago Mexico for well over a decade - and there's probably another decade left in that pair, too. I don't 'shift heavy', avoid dirty, wet, nasty weather, and replace chains before their stretch begins to cause undue wear on the rings and cogs. Oh, and of course, periodic cleaning and lubrication of the chain, since it's the component picking up the gunk and distributing it to the rest of the drive train components.

I'm a 'clean-as-you-go' type. The extensive drive train component life I realize from this approach speaks for itself.

Again: speaking only for myself. I understand others have their own vision when it comes to their reason(s) and motivation(s) to ride their bike. It's all good!

DD


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