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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

Amesja 05-18-11 07:51 PM

Yeah, or even peel the reflectors out if you don't like seeing them in by the spindle. They are very HEAVY-duty though. Seriously solid -not for weight weenies.

Amesja 05-18-11 07:57 PM

A clamp-on pulley isn't hard to source.

ohjonnybegoode 05-18-11 08:02 PM

I just picked up a '69 Raleigh Superb, 23 inch frame in black...seems like all the bits are there except the key for the locking fork - pics to come!

BigPolishJimmy 05-18-11 08:03 PM

Auchen, Kurt has a nice dating guide to Ralieghs. I'd point you to it, but I'm on dial-up atm. Sweet find. That chainguard looks older than my 70's model sports.

Amesja 05-18-11 08:15 PM

I think Kurt's dating guide is not going to be a lot of help here. That bike is plumb WEIRD. It does have the old-style lugs (pre-54) but doesn't have the pulley braze-on so that puts it at '49 or older. It should have a full chaincase if that is true but that guard is not hockey-stick but maybe some other thing someone put on there. I don't even know what to say about the wingnut hubs. The wheelset might have come off of a different bike, rims probably replaced -the hubs are 32/40's. I've never seen a chromed fork like that on an old light roadster but they have the Raleigh thimbles. I don't have a clue why the heron wheel is rivited like that.

I can't wait until Kurt gets here and tells us what this is.

JohnDThompson 05-18-11 08:50 PM

Lake Pepin
 
So, who else besides me is going to be at Lake Pepin this weekend?

Amesja 05-18-11 09:09 PM

Too far for a bike ride! Even if I still lived in Madison it'd be too far...

Mike from Iowa 05-18-11 09:12 PM


Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 12662377)
So, who else besides me is going to be at Lake Pepin this weekend?

I will

auchencrow 05-18-11 09:15 PM


Originally Posted by Amesja (Post 12662211)
I think Kurt's dating guide is not going to be a lot of help here. That bike is plumb WEIRD. It does have the old-style lugs (pre-54) but doesn't have the pulley braze-on so that puts it at '49 or older. It should have a full chaincase if that is true but that guard is not hockey-stick but maybe some other thing someone put on there. I don't even know what to say about the wingnut hubs. The wheelset might have come off of a different bike, rims probably replaced -the hubs are 32/40's. I've never seen a chromed fork like that on an old light roadster but they have the Raleigh thimbles. I don't have a clue why the heron wheel is rivited like that.

I can't wait until Kurt gets here and tells us what this is.

I would very much like to hear from Kurt also.

The more I look at the clamp-on stem, the lack of braze ons, the wing nuts, and the AW-8 undated hub, the more convinced I am that it is old.

The chain guard seems to have the same paint/patina as the frame. I doubt that this ever had a full chaincase. I must agree it does not look like the other guards in the old catalogs on Kurt's Headbadge site.

I really think those S-6 wheels are original along with the SA and Dyno hubs - or someone went to a lot of trouble. I found one other reference to the AW 8 and it was on a 1938 model. :eek:

- I suspect the fork was stripped by some PO, who just thought a chrome fork would look snazzy. I'll repaint it.

The lamp mounting bracket is different too - all the others I've seen have the Heron. This one is plainer.

gnome 05-18-11 09:16 PM


Originally Posted by auchencrow (Post 12661910)
I just picked up this Raleigh this evening (rather inexpensively, but not impulsively - It had been sitting for days on CL with a grainy photo and I finally succumbed, in part due to this infectious thread).

There are a few things awry with it: I.e.;
  • The fork is in good condition and chromed, but not painted. (Easy fix).
  • It is missing the rear reflector, SA pulley by the seat post, and it has old Schwinn pedals and grips instead of the originals.
  • It has an old patent pending Thompson kickstand. I don't know if it is original or not.
  • I suspect the lamp is unoriginal also, since it is a 6v unit.
  • The 3-speed bar mounted shifter is surely unoriginal - and possibly the Old Brooks sprung mattress-style saddle as well.
  • -And the Seat clamp is on backwards!


It was purported to be a 60's model, but I doubt that now, because of the following peculiarities:

  • S-6 tires
  • Unmarked steel Raleigh type rims, galvanized spokes.
  • "Patent Pending" front Dynohub (both lights work)
  • No "Raleigh lettering on the frame or chain guard - yet I am sure is NOT a repaint: It does have the fine gold pin-striping everywhere.
  • Heron chain-ring bolted to the crank arm.
  • No braze-on for the missing pulley
  • Old style stem - CLAMPED on (Not quill type).
  • Brake cables soldered both ends. (How do I replace these?)
  • NO Date on the SA "AW-8" rear hub.
  • Big wing-nuts at all 4 corners.
  • Witness from a 2nd TT mounted clamp (TT shifter?)


The paint is in pretty decent shape overall, but (not surprisingly) shifting is not so swift for lack of a pulley.

- Can someone date this for me? I assume it is a Superbe not a Sports but I can't even be sure about that.
I am no expert when it comes to three speeds.

I'm not 100% sure on the hub date (don't know when they changed to 2 digits) but I think if the rear hub is original then it would be about 1938.

auchencrow 05-18-11 09:19 PM


Originally Posted by gnome (Post 12662482)
I'm not 100% sure on the hub date (don't know when they changed to 2 digits) but I think if the rear hub is original then it would be about 1938.

- IF it actually turns out to be a pre-war Raleigh, it will have been the best deal I made all day! ;)

cudak888 05-19-11 11:17 AM

You'll have to bear with me here to figure out what model that is, but it is a pre-war Raleigh there, with significant front-end damage - believe it or not, that headtube is supposed to be as slack as the seattube (Park HTS-1 time!). Chrome fork is original, and the North Roads are not - this used to be a racing model of some kind.

Incidentally, that's a Hercules chainguard. Obviously, it isn't original either.

-Kurt

cudak888 05-19-11 11:41 AM

Provided the saddle is original, that is a 1938 Raleigh Golden Arrow with the wrong fenders, optional black finish, and chrome front fork. S6 tires because the rims are 26 x 1-1/4" EA-1, which shares the 597mm bead diameter with the S6 rims.

Question: Is there evidence of quick-release fender mountings (see catalog photo) having been removed off the seatstays?

(1939 catalog, http://www.sheldonbrown.com/retroral...9/pages/19.htm)
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/retroral.../images/19.jpg

FYI, specs are nearly identical to the Special Club Sports, but the Brooks mattress saddle was standard equipment on the Golden Arrow, while the Special appears to have had a leather Brooks - probably a B.17.

-Kurt

rhm 05-19-11 11:42 AM


Originally Posted by auchencrow (Post 12661910)
I just picked up this Raleigh this evening (rather inexpensively, but not impulsively - It had been sitting for days on CL with a grainy photo and I finally succumbed, in part due to this infectious thread).

There are a few things awry with it: I.e.;
  • The fork is in good condition and chromed, but not painted. (Easy fix).
  • It is missing the rear reflector, SA pulley by the seat post, and it has old Schwinn pedals and grips instead of the originals.
  • It has an old patent pending Thompson kickstand. I don't know if it is original or not.
  • I suspect the lamp is unoriginal also, since it is a 6v unit.
  • The 3-speed bar mounted shifter is surely unoriginal - and possibly the Old Brooks sprung mattress-style saddle as well.
  • -And the Seat clamp is on backwards!

It was purported to be a 60's model, but I doubt that now, because of the following peculiarities:
  • S-6 tires
  • Unmarked steel Raleigh type rims, galvanized spokes.
  • "Patent Pending" front Dynohub (both lights work)
  • No "Raleigh lettering on the frame or chain guard - yet I am sure is NOT a repaint: It does have the fine gold pin-striping everywhere.
  • Heron chain-ring bolted to the crank arm.
  • No braze-on for the missing pulley
  • Old style stem - CLAMPED on (Not quill type).
  • Brake cables soldered both ends. (How do I replace these?)
  • NO Date on the SA "AW-8" rear hub.
  • Big wing-nuts at all 4 corners.
  • Witness from a 2nd TT mounted clamp (TT shifter?)

The paint is in pretty decent shape overall, but (not surprisingly) shifting is not so swift for lack of a pulley.

- Can someone date this for me? I assume it is a Superbe not a Sports but I can't even be sure about that.
I am no expert when it comes to three speeds.


http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...xxBlack009.jpg


http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...xxBlack011.jpg


http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...xxBlack012.jpg


http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...xxBlack014.jpg


http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...xxBlack017.jpg


http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...xxBlack008.jpg


http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...xxBlack004.jpg


http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...xxBlack007.jpg


http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...xxBlack006.jpg

Woah, just saw this. That is REALLY nice.

A few comments...

The rear hub is dated 8, as in 1938. The front hub is clearly an early one, probably of the same date.

Hubs of that era came with a top tube mounted "quadrant" shifter.

Schwinn pedals were 1/2"; aren't yours 5/8"? Possibly your pedals are origiinal and only the rubber blocks have been replaced?

If the seat clamp is in front of the seat post, it is not on backwards. That's how it was done at the time.

You can replace the brake cables with new ones and puth a knarp at the end. Or you may be able to find NOS cables (hard to find). Some people have good luck soldering/casting the appropriate end onto a new cable. But don't replace the cables unless you have to. Old cables are much thicker than new ones.

Paint is very well done for a repaint, but I've never seen a Raleigh with no decals; I suspect it is a repaint.

Frame doesn't look bent to me, but it is hard to tell. On the bikes I've seen, the seat tube was more slack than the head tube (though not by much).

Original head lamp should be 6v. I can't tell what yours is, except for the lens, which looks exactly like a Sturmey Archer headlamp I have.

The chain guard looks like the ones Hercules, Norman, et al used. I don't know if Raleigh used that style. It's nice, though.

A high end, racy bike would have had celluloid mudguards held on with wingnuts, and solid fork ends. Your steel mudguards and smashed fork ends seem to me in complete harmony with the north road bars, chain guard, dynohub, etc. So without speculating on the model (which I know nothing about) I see no reason to think it's not all original. You have the standard Raleigh rear dropouts, with mudguard mounting below the axle.

Questions... did you say 26 x 1 1/4 (ISO 597 mm) rims? That indicates a somewhat racier model. Are they completely unmarked, not marked "DUNLOP EA 1" or "SPECIAL LIGHTWEIGHT" or anything like that? These are not the Raleigh pattern rims (which you would find on a Superbe or a Sports).

Edit...

I see now Kurt has weighed in on several of the points I addressed. Weren't you just pining for a Golden Arrow the other day? I'm not quite convinced (yet).

cudak888 05-19-11 11:48 AM

Read my post above yours, RHM.

That's an early Dynohub, much larger than the 6 volt GH6 model - it's either the GH12 (12v) or GH8 (8v). It should be stamped on the back with a date and model codes.

EDIT: Auchen, have you seen Carl's 1936 Golden Arrow thread? These things are dropping like flies this week: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...h-Golden-Arrow

-Kurt

rhm 05-19-11 12:14 PM

Yeah, I saw it, Kurt, after I hit 'reply.' I guess you've convinced me, with the proviso that the 1939 Golden Arrow has some changes over the 1938 model. This has the same dropouts as Carl's, while the '39 in the catalog has mudguard eyelets brazed to the stays.

Sure is a nice one, Auchen!

Amesja 05-19-11 12:16 PM

Wow, this is a neat development. I want one!

Wingnuts on the mud guards? that gives me an idea... Anyone have a picture of what this would look like?

cudak888 05-19-11 12:25 PM


Originally Posted by rhm (Post 12665146)
Yeah, I saw it, Kurt, after I hit 'reply.' I guess you've convinced me, with the proviso that the 1939 Golden Arrow has some changes over the 1938 model. This has the same dropouts as Carl's, while the '39 in the catalog has mudguard eyelets brazed to the stays.

It's a good thing Carl's showed up then - Auchen's frame has therefore been spared modification.


Originally Posted by Amesja (Post 12665156)
Wow, this is a neat development. I want one!

So does Auchen - he's completely oblivious to the fact that he owns a Golden Arrow: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...h-Golden-Arrow

:roflmao:

-Kurt

rhm 05-19-11 12:26 PM

Amesja,

The mudguard wingnuts on my Norman Rapide are 1950 original:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2563/...3da2b4e0_b.jpg

As you know, Raleigh made every part of their bikes, including the nuts and bolts; so Raleigh wingnuts are a little different.

Amesja 05-19-11 12:28 PM

I bet I could drill out my own set, then tap it with my whitworth tap...

waverley610 05-19-11 01:29 PM

1 Attachment(s)
From 1937-9 three speeds were stamped AW7 AW8 AW9, from 1940 they used double figures, here's an AW9 on a 1936 Rudge I sold last week;
So that dates the hub, but the front mudguard looks (to me) more 1950's.
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=202590

Sixty Fiver 05-19-11 03:10 PM

This is what it is all about... just gave my friend a 1964 Triumph I received a while back and tuned up. He is a rather brilliant mechanic so will let him do the polishing and start his journey on learning about English three speeds.

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikep...antriumph1.JPG

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikep...iumphride1.JPG

And some live action... :)

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikep...rianride11.MOV

auchencrow 05-19-11 03:16 PM

Kurt! RHM ! Amesja! Gnome!
OMG :eek: What was I just saying when I saw Carls?

There are still some things amiss - my spokes do not appear to be stainless but they might have been replaced when someone installed the old Dynohub. There is no date on the back of it - just a "MkII".
The saddle is branded Brooks not Terry. (It could be as old as the bike though.)

There is some noticeable head tube angle/frame damage as Kurt pointed out - I did not notice it until Kurt cited it today but it is definitely there. (I want to look into what I can do about it - this bike is worth repairing)

But the seat stays do indeed have the mounts for those quick-release Bluemel fenders.

The tires are marked : Nylon... 26x1-3/8 to fit S-5 or S-6 Schwinn tubular rims " just as on my '51 Armstrong.
The rims themselves are chromed steel - no markings of any kind. Their section is different though, than the 37-590 wheels on my '53 Raleigh Sports. (Did I mention I recently stumbled on a 53 Sports? ;))

In summary I think Kurt is right and this is a '38 Golden Arrow in disguise. It came from Grosse Pointe (a very affluent suburb on the north-eastern border of Detroit, where Henry Ford had an estate, et al.) so it is conceivable that some well-heeled customer had the LBS "customize" it for tooling around the Pointes.

Who knows? Maybe Henry himself ! After all, it is painted black!

cudak888 05-19-11 03:44 PM

I wouldn't worry much about whether the spokes have been replaced or not. The original rims would have been marked as Raleigh Endricks at the center of the rim; if these aren't marked, they've likely been replaced. Endrick is Raleigh's name for box pattern rims. Westwoods are raised-center, rod-only rims, while Westricks are the most common - raised center for rod or calipers (Westwood + Endrick = Westrick).

MkII, eh? Hmm - GH8? At any rate, the Dynohub is around the same era as the bike; it hasn't been added on.

Where are those QR mounts, might I ask? I only see them on the forks.

The solution to your front end issue is this tool:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/parkframestraightener2.jpg

...which has turned these:

(MILD)
http://www.jaysmarine.com/legnano_bent_1.jpg

(EXTREME)
http://www.jaysmarine.com/windsor_national_bent2.jpg


Into these:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/legnano_bent_6.jpg

http://www.jaysmarine.com/windsor_national_bent4.jpg

-Kurt

Sixty Fiver 05-19-11 04:06 PM


Originally Posted by cudak888 (Post 12666114)
I wouldn't worry much about whether the spokes have been replaced or not. The original rims would have been marked as Raleigh Endricks at the center of the rim; if these aren't marked, they've likely been replaced. Endrick is Raleigh's name for box pattern rims. Westwoods are raised-center, rod-only rims, while Westricks are the most common - raised center for rod or calipers (Westwood + Endrick = Westrick).

MkII, eh? Hmm - GH8? At any rate, the Dynohub is around the same era as the bike; it hasn't been added on.

Where are those QR mounts, might I ask? I only see them on the forks.

The solution to your front end issue is this tool:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/windsor_national_bent4.jpg

-Kurt

The solution to A's frame issue is to bring it to a frame builder who will re-braze the head tube and lugs to the top and downtube (and replace those if needed) as they appear to have separated.

You know my position on the Park tool... it can make a damaged frame look whole and with some refinishing a badly damaged frame can pass as being safe when the head tube and joints have been compromised.

There is a good reason why they don't make these anymore... once a frame is bent at the head lugs it is usually a write off unless it is particularly rare or valuable and needs to be rebuilt properly and not just bent back into shape without considering what kind of internal damage has been done.

The liability issues surrounding the use of this tool are HUGE.


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