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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

photogravity 04-01-13 11:30 AM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 15455363)
Hmmm. Will its parts bolt up in an original AW shell? :innocent:

I don't know from personal experience, but it is my understanding that the parts are interchangeable.

Amesja 04-01-13 11:44 AM

I think they would. While I didn't try it things sure looked identical to me. I've mixed and matched Nottingham guts with Styria before. You have to be REALLY careful about the cone nuts on some Nottingham hubs as they don't even match from side to side or from hub to hub -but other than that I think all the major components would be fine matching with each other.

noglider 04-01-13 03:21 PM

A couple of things.

1. I need a couple of sprocket spacers. Yes, a couple. I thought I had a collection of them, but I can't find them. Maybe I used them or gave them away. Anyone got one or two to spare me?

2. My Rudge is handsome and a nice conversation piece, but maybe I won't want it forever. I'm thinking of finding an old lightweight sport-touring frame like a Raleigh International and making a three-speed out of it. It would have upright bars, lightweight fenders and a lightweight chainguard. Basically, it would be a Sports but with tighter geometry and most everything made of aluminum except for the frame, rear hub, and spokes. Anyway, it's just a thought rattling around in my brain. I'm not going to do it any time soon.

Sixty Fiver 04-01-13 05:27 PM

Sturmey Archer made hubs for Suntour and the Japanese market to compete with Shimano's 3 speed hubs, the only difference between the SA and Suntour is in the hub shell.

Sixty Fiver 04-01-13 05:29 PM

Another 3 speed... these damn things breed like rabbits here.

1976 Raleigh 20... I have an ever growing list of folks who want one and this one has a lineup forming already.

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikep...rown%20(2).JPG

noglider 04-01-13 08:50 PM

Sixty Fiver, where do you get them?

Monolithik 04-01-13 08:58 PM

Hi folks! I hope this is the right place for this: I've had this oddball bike in my possession for around 25 years.
I got it at a yard sale, bought it because of the reynolds 531 sticker on the seat tube. Rode it for a bit, then put it up and rode my Super Course instead. I'd always assumed that it was just some kind of mongrel that someone had slapped together, I couldn't fathom a light frameset with that heavy steel crank, wheels, headset and gooseneck, plus the 3 speed hub.
So I recently pulled it out of the rafters and took a look and tried to find out something about it-that's when I found pictures of remarkably similar bikes in this thread. I'd love to know some details about the bike, an aproximate valuation, and advice on whether I should attempt to restore, upgrade or pass it along to an actual enthusiast who may do the bike more justice than I could. So on to the pictures-sorry for tge crappy cel phone quality. And sorry for the way the saddle is just propped on the bike-the clamp somehow went missing.

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...30FD47E2CA.jpg

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...31105B0C7B.jpg

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...311D754CE3.jpg

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...312A5B4A8C.jpg

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...3136E9844B.jpg

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...314507BA28.jpg

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...3155DAB085.jpg

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...3162A3453E.jpg

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...317B1E0030.jpg

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...318584DF78.jpg


I think the orange is a repaint.
thank you in advance for any input!
Baz

Monolithik 04-01-13 09:00 PM

3 more pics:
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...31AE10E913.jpg

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...31A1040C12.jpg

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...31906C683F.jpg

Sixty Fiver 04-01-13 09:25 PM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 15457909)
Sixty Fiver, where do you get them?

People call me and say hey... "do you want a Raleigh 20 ?"

I traded this one for some parts.

Velognome 04-01-13 09:30 PM

Monolithik- very nice Raleigh! Welcome to the C&V. It sure looks ainted up to look like a Super Sport. Lots of mixed parts. GB levers, new(er) bars and calipers. But the Frame, fork, crank and headclip look to be Raleigh Pre /early post War stuff. Maybe a Lenten Sport? It's a keeper!

auchencrow 04-01-13 09:45 PM

Hi Monolithik -
I like your orange Raleigh. - I'm not sure what it is but Velognome may be right. or maybe it's a Lenton Clubman(?)
The bb Serial number gives it away as a 1951, and it's obviously a repaint but very cool.

Monolithik 04-02-13 12:58 AM

Thank you gents!
By following your leads, I was able to dig up a bit more info to steer me in the right direction. The following info is from an article on the Raleigh Lentons by Peter C. Kohler:

For the 1952 model year, the Raleigh Clubman, Rudge Aero Clubman and Humber Beeston Clubman were replaced by the new Raleigh Super Lenton,no. 27, Rudge Aero Special no. 127 and Humber Streak no. 327. These top-of-the-line racing machines were star attractions at the December 1951 London Bicycle and Motor Cycle Show. A reworked version of the Clubman, the new model came in both a 22" and a 23" frame (gents only) with 73 head and 71 seat angles with Reynolds 531 frame and fork, alloy caliper brakes with alloy hood levers, alloy Maes bend handlebars on a steel stem and steel Dunlop HP 27" rims with Raleigh quick release hubs. A Brooks B-15 "Flyer" saddle and celluloid mudguards were fitted. Finished in either Flamboyant Electric Blue or Lustre Orange, the Super Lenton initially lacked the chromed rear triangle and fork ends of the Clubman and was supplied as single gear machine with optional Sturmey Archer gears.

There is also a chart which lists some specs by model and year.

Mine has the alloy brakes, steel, not rubber pedals, 27" steel rims, 531 frame, Maes bars,fluted cranks.I don't know what brand the saddle is, I cant decipher the logo from the pics, but I'll try to find out on wednesday when I get back to my shop.

Thanks again for the help-and please chime in if I'm way off base thinking this might be a Super Lenton.

Baz

Nerdy Norm 04-02-13 05:45 AM

Nice NOS 26TPI wingnuts on Ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...E:B:SS:GB:1123

photogravity 04-02-13 06:03 AM


Originally Posted by Monolithik (Post 15458508)
Thank you gents!
By following your leads, I was able to dig up a bit more info to steer me in the right direction. The following info is from an article on the Raleigh Lentons by Peter C. Kohler:

For the 1952 model year, the Raleigh Clubman, Rudge Aero Clubman and Humber Beeston Clubman were replaced by the new Raleigh Super Lenton,no. 27, Rudge Aero Special no. 127 and Humber Streak no. 327. These top-of-the-line racing machines were star attractions at the December 1951 London Bicycle and Motor Cycle Show. A reworked version of the Clubman, the new model came in both a 22" and a 23" frame (gents only) with 73 head and 71 seat angles with Reynolds 531 frame and fork, alloy caliper brakes with alloy hood levers, alloy Maes bend handlebars on a steel stem and steel Dunlop HP 27" rims with Raleigh quick release hubs. A Brooks B-15 "Flyer" saddle and celluloid mudguards were fitted. Finished in either Flamboyant Electric Blue or Lustre Orange, the Super Lenton initially lacked the chromed rear triangle and fork ends of the Clubman and was supplied as single gear machine with optional Sturmey Archer gears.

There is also a chart which lists some specs by model and year.

Mine has the alloy brakes, steel, not rubber pedals, 27" steel rims, 531 frame, Maes bars,fluted cranks.I don't know what brand the saddle is, I cant decipher the logo from the pics, but I'll try to find out on wednesday when I get back to my shop.

Thanks again for the help-and please chime in if I'm way off base thinking this might be a Super Lenton.

Baz

Baz, I think you're right in assuming the bicycle is a Super Lenton. I'm not usually one to disagree with auchencrow, but I do not believe it to be a Clubman as they were made from double-butted 531 instead of straight gauge 531. The sticker, if original, would indicate it is straight gauge tubing.

Out of curiosity, does it have 26" or 27" wheels?

EDIT: The Clubman was not DB 531 but was straight gauge as rhm states.

rhm 04-02-13 06:34 AM


Originally Posted by photogravity (Post 15458829)
... I do not believe it to be a Clubman as they were made from double-butted 531 instead of straight gauge 531. The sticker, if original, would indicate it is straight gauge tubing.

No, I think you are mistaken about the tubing. The Clubman had straight gauge tubing; only the RRA had butted.

The lugs and chromed fork ends on Baz's bike are all consistent with a Clubman of that period. The Super Lenton, as far as I can tell from some bad photos on the internet, had different lugs. Baz's bike also has aluminum brakes and handlebar, as well as the chain ring with heron heads, all of which point to a Clubman.

I'm not sure how much weight to put on the lug designs used; I've seen Lenton Sports with both fancy lugs (as on Baz's) and plain. But Baz's bike has enough Clubman features to make me pretty confident that's what he has.

Baz, I have that same saddle and have not figured out the stamp on it either. Two letters, the first maybe E or F, and the second obviously S, between the words "TRADE MARK." I'm thinking it's a Japanese saddle from the 70's, on account of the frame design, but I'm not certain about this yet.

If you decide to repaint your Raleigh, you can get the correct decals from H. Lloyd Cycles.

photogravity 04-02-13 07:39 AM


Originally Posted by rhm (Post 15458903)
No, I think you are mistaken about the tubing. The Clubman had straight gauge tubing; only the RRA had butted.

The lugs and chromed fork ends on Baz's bike are all consistent with a Clubman of that period. The Super Lenton, as far as I can tell from some bad photos on the internet, had different lugs. Baz's bike also has aluminum brakes and handlebar, as well as the chain ring with heron heads, all of which point to a Clubman.

I'm not sure how much weight to put on the lug designs used; I've seen Lenton Sports with both fancy lugs (as on Baz's) and plain. But Baz's bike has enough Clubman features to make me pretty confident that's what he has.

Baz, I have that same saddle and have not figured out the stamp on it either. Two letters, the first maybe E or F, and the second obviously S, between the words "TRADE MARK." I'm thinking it's a Japanese saddle from the 70's, on account of the frame design, but I'm not certain about this yet.

If you decide to repaint your Raleigh, you can get the correct decals from H. Lloyd Cycles.

I was mistaken about the tubing. The Clubman indeed straight gauge 531. Why I though the Clubman was made from butted 531, I'm not sure. Given that the Super Lenton wasn't introduced until 1952 and the serial number indicates the bicycle is a 1951, it appears auchencrow is correct in calling it a Clubman.

Salubrious 04-02-13 10:57 AM

Monolithik, the handlebars, stem, brake levers and calipers are correct, if not for the bike certainly for the period. The Sport calipers as shown date from the 50s (not the 60s, which would be a Sport Mk3). Seems unlikely that someone would change that out years after the fact and get the period right as we see in the photos. Although the condition is deplorable, it seems this bike is worthy of renovation.

Velognome 04-02-13 11:10 AM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 15459992)
Monolithik, the handlebars, stem, brake levers and calipers are correct, if not for the bike certainly for the period. The Sport calipers as shown date from the 50s (not the 60s, which would be a Sport Mk3). Seems unlikely that someone would change that out years after the fact and get the period right as we see in the photos. Although the condition is deplorable, it seems this bike is worthy of renovation.

Introduced in 1953 according to Hilary stone
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk...s/gbsport3.JPG

Not sure if they were OEM for Raleighs of the period

Monolithik 04-02-13 01:10 PM

Thank you all!
I guess I misread the post where the date of the bike was given-I thought it said the bike was a 53.
Since I'm brand new to the nomenclature, would calling this bike a 1951 Raleigh Lenton Clubman be correct?

Looks like I'll be attempting to resurrect this bike- gentle rust removal, try to find the original color under what appears to be brushed on enamel, new stickers, cables, brake pads and tyres, see if the saddle can be restored, and get this on the road again. Now, off to search restoration tips and how tos.

I greatly appreciate your knowledge and help in solving a nearly 30 year mystery for me!

Baz

rhm 04-02-13 01:15 PM

I would tentatively call it a 1951 Raleigh Clubman.

As you have probably realized by now, Raleigh gave these bikes a very durable black gloss undercoat with a "polychromatic" color over that, with decals over that. If the present paint went over the original, then it's presumably because the original looked pretty bad; so you will probably find the black in good shape but the color coat largely missing. With care you should be able to see enough of the original decals to confirm the model.


Good luck!

Salubrious 04-02-13 01:16 PM

Be careful with the paint removal- if the original finish is intact underneath that stuff you are better off with that than a full-on restoration (at least from what I have seen) in terms of resale.

photogravity 04-02-13 01:21 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 15460736)
Be careful with the paint removal- if the original finish is intact underneath that stuff you are better off with that than a full-on restoration (at least from what I have seen) in terms of resale.

+1 I definitely would be careful with removal of that god-awful paint as you may get some very good clues on what the bicycle actually is. I have found that badly done repaints over original paint tend to be fairly easy to remove if you are patient in your work.

Velognome 04-02-13 05:32 PM

Question. The '50 Clubman had a brazed fitting for the fulcrum which this example has also, correct? But the steerer on this fork of thjis example is long enough to accept a Headclip, I didn't think the '50 Clubman had headclips? Maybe I'm wrong and confused.

SirMike1983 04-02-13 05:45 PM

Removing home paint jobs is slow, tedious work. You have to first identify a solvent that will help remove the overpaint, but with minimal harm to the original. Sometimes it's paint thinner, sometimes it's acetone, and even other times water. Water is the best because then you have a modern latex usually, and you can wipe the paint off with some care. Latex usually forms a plastic-like skin and doesn't do much to harm the original factory paint underneath.

Paint thinner works on some oil-based paints and will usually remove light-duty overpaints with some rubbing. I haven't had much of a problem with paint thinner pulling up original Raleigh paint on my bikes when I've used it. Acetone is next and is pretty potent stuff. It will almost certainly pull off the overpaint, but it will also pull off the original factory paint too, so you have to be very careful with it. I recently pulled overpaint off a 1935 Hercules fender. I found the original paint underneath still had a fair bit of shine to it, but the home spray guy had roughed it up for his over paint.

http://bikeshedva.blogspot.com/2013/...d-model-g.html

nlerner 04-02-13 06:42 PM


Originally Posted by Monolithik (Post 15460695)
Thank you all!
I guess I misread the post where the date of the bike was given-I thought it said the bike was a 53.
Since I'm brand new to the nomenclature, would calling this bike a 1951 Raleigh Lenton Clubman be correct?

Looks like I'll be attempting to resurrect this bike- gentle rust removal, try to find the original color under what appears to be brushed on enamel, new stickers, cables, brake pads and tyres, see if the saddle can be restored, and get this on the road again. Now, off to search restoration tips and how tos.

I greatly appreciate your knowledge and help in solving a nearly 30 year mystery for me!

Baz

Given the 27" wheels, I'd say a '50 or '51 Clubman would be a good guess. The Lenton Clubman was only produced in 1948 and had 26 x 1 1/4" wheels, as did the '49 Clubman. One oddity is the 531 sticker, which is the type that *would* have been on the '49 Clubman, but given the repaint, all bets are off as far as originality of stickers.

nlerner 04-02-13 06:44 PM


Originally Posted by Velognome (Post 15461709)
Question. The '50 Clubman had a brazed fitting for the fulcrum which this example has also, correct? But the steerer on this fork of thjis example is long enough to accept a Headclip, I didn't think the '50 Clubman had headclips? Maybe I'm wrong and confused.

The '50 and '51 Clubman were pretty much identical. Both had 27" wheels w/ Dunlop Special Lightweight rims, head clips and the same stem as on the OP's:

1950 Clubman:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-g...0/IMG_5572.JPG

1951 Clubman (yes, these were once the same color blue):
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-C...0/IMG_5560.JPG

Velognome 04-02-13 06:53 PM

very cool, thanks for the education on the head sets. Clubman it is :thumb:

PalmettoUpstate 04-02-13 07:53 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 15454968)
I amassed too much stuff and had to downsize. I try hard to stay focused on British and Canadian bikes but even that has left 30 or 40 bikes in the stable.

Aaarrgh! That would hurt me but I can see where I could be heading to that place. Thankfully I was a Boy Scout once and I took the motto seriously...

PalmettoUpstate 04-02-13 07:59 PM


Originally Posted by Velognome (Post 15462006)
very cool, thanks for the education on the head sets. Clubman it is :thumb:

To you Clubman aficionados: Was there a circuit that these bikes were raced on? IOW, one that specified that a 3-speed tranny, and ONLY a 3-speed could compete in the class?

Velognome 04-02-13 09:07 PM

I believe Club Racing in England was TT on Fixed gear machines and some Close Ratio hubs that were commonly used. The Raleigh Clubman was a do it all Club bike for the weekend warriors. There were some basic rules, like bikes had to be equiped with a bell and fenders, not so sure about type of gears. I'm sure someone much more knowledgable will be along to correct and add to this.

There were also more specific machines like this Sun Manx TT with a shortened wheel base' note the fenders, bell and quadrant shifter for a 3 speed IGH


http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3236/2...4fa_z.jpg?zz=1


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