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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

desconhecido 08-06-18 06:10 PM


Originally Posted by Buellster (Post 20491618)
Thanks!
I played 69.99, one penny more than the asking price. I think it was a little pricey but I see so few and it's in the original box!

I don't think that's bad at all for a new FW hub. 36h or 40h?

You'll need a proper 4 speed shifter for that fellow. Early 50s Raleighs had a "3 or 4" speed shifter that will work. I believe the shifters labeled as 4 speed are the same and will work also.

Before you build it into a wheel, measure the axle length and see what the OLD will turn out to be and make sure you're happy with the result. There were two axle possibilities 5 3/4" and 6 1/4". The shorter axle will match the spacing on you're Sports which you can measure and probably turns out to be about 110 mm. The longer axle will space out to about 120 mm which is probably ideal for your Harding.

I don't know where to find axles for these guys, maybe on ebay from time to time, maybe from a trashed hub.

Look at the exploded diagram and notice the two piece shift rod/indicator. These are supposed to be fragile and are, so they say, not easy to find and expensive when they turn up.

Buellster 08-06-18 07:34 PM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20492105)
I don't think that's bad at all for a new FW hub. 36h or 40h?

You'll need a proper 4 speed shifter for that fellow. Early 50s Raleighs had a "3 or 4" speed shifter that will work. I believe the shifters labeled as 4 speed are the same and will work also.

Before you build it into a wheel, measure the axle length and see what the OLD will turn out to be and make sure you're happy with the result. There were two axle possibilities 5 3/4" and 6 1/4". The shorter axle will match the spacing on you're Sports which you can measure and probably turns out to be about 110 mm. The longer axle will space out to about 120 mm which is probably ideal for your Harding.

I don't know where to find axles for these guys, maybe on ebay from time to time, maybe from a trashed hub.

Look at the exploded diagram and notice the two piece shift rod/indicator. These are supposed to be fragile and are, so they say, not easy to find and expensive when they turn up.

I think it may include the the axel... I think.
Heres a few more of the pics from the sale. My local LBS also has a bucket full of strumey archer hubs so I may find some things I need there too.
my Hardings rear spacing WAS 120mm it was cold pressed to fit a standard 700c wheel 130mm. I can have it cold pressed back to the 120 (I know its horrible and a terrible thing to do but of it can take it one more time I swear I'll never do it again!) but if this a 110 mm axle itll be a big stretch back. May be too dangerous to risk it...

edit: it's a 36 hole to answer your first queryhttps://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...361fbc588e.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f06cfbe0fd.jpg

BigChief 08-07-18 05:43 AM


Originally Posted by Buellster (Post 20491618)
Thanks!
I played 69.99, one penny more than the asking price. I think it was a little pricey but I see so few and it's in the original box!

The exploded view FW hub I found at SA heritage shows both 5 1/2 and 6 1/4 axles so this could be either. If this is too short to fit this project, it would still be a great hub for a Sports project. A NOS FM hub at a reasonable price is such a good find that I wouldn't be disappointed if it wasn't right for one project since it would be really nice for the next. Tough to find a good deal on a 4 speed trigger though. People seem to ask a lot for them on fleebay. If you want to keep cost down, damaged shifters can be repaired.

Classtime 08-07-18 06:21 AM

Three Spires
 
I Searched and couldn't find another Three Spires. My son just got this for his girlfriend. He was a little sad a couple years ago when I sold my Triumph to make room for another road bike. 1961 hub date. All original but the tires? Too bad about the handlebars. I wonder how that happened without other damage. The fender stays are super straight which is kinda neat.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9cd5257b1d.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...848ed73018.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...cb9ebd76c8.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6ffa4ac49b.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a7c999168c.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bf0402e8e7.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9133721170.jpg

BigChief 08-07-18 07:05 AM

Three Spires was a Coventry based Bike company absorbed by Raleigh in 1954. So this is a Raleigh built bike from the Nottingham factory. Nice bike. Not always, but usually dulled paint like this will respond nicely to a polishing compound and regain a lot of it's luster although sometimes the oxidation goes to deep for a polish to remove. I'd guess this bike would clean up very well. I'd say it will make a fun and rewarding project.

gster 08-07-18 07:07 AM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 20492743)
I Searched and couldn't find another Three Spires. My son just got this for his girlfriend. He was a little sad a couple years ago when I sold my Triumph to make room for another road bike. 1961 hub date. All original but the tires? Too bad about the handlebars. I wonder how that happened without other damage. The fender stays are super straight which is kinda neat.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9cd5257b1d.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...848ed73018.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...cb9ebd76c8.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6ffa4ac49b.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a7c999168c.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bf0402e8e7.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9133721170.jpg

Nice original bike.
The only drawback is those early Raleigh brake calipers.
The proprietary cables are difficult to find (NOS)
and I don't think anyone has a devised an easy/good looking fix.
A metal wall anchor can be used as a "stop" but is not the cleanest solution.
I generally swap out the calipers for the newer design if I
plan to really ride a bike.
A closer look at your photos shows that there's still plenty of
adjustment available on the cables.

BigChief 08-07-18 07:26 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20492815)
Nice original bike.
The only drawback is those early Raleigh brake calipers.
The proprietary cables are difficult to find (NOS)
and I don't think anyone has a devised an easy/good looking fix.
A metal wall anchor can be used as a "stop" but is not the cleanest solution.
I generally swap out the calipers for the newer design if I
plan to really ride a bike.
A closer look at your photos shows that there's still plenty of
adjustment available on the cables.

I like that this bike is pre plastic parts. Looks like it still has it's embossed brass plate trigger shifter too. Original white, fluted housing, ball end cables are a rare find, but I've had good luck keeping original old cables. I don't have a pressure oiler, but I hang them on a wire and apply light oil to the ends and let it work it's way down the housing. I like that it has it's original cables. Unless they're broken or frayed, I'd keep em. Even then, I would silver solder a ball end on a new inner cable and keep the original housings if they were too damaged.

markk900 08-07-18 08:47 AM

Re: the Raleigh cables and the soldered end....there was a discussion on this a while back but I will say I experimented with a cut down spoke nipple soldered onto a new cable and it was perfect - it fit into the caliper and effectively disappeared; there is a nice crimper that also apparently works well.

BigChief 08-07-18 09:06 AM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 20493015)
Re: the Raleigh cables and the soldered end....there was a discussion on this a while back but I will say I experimented with a cut down spoke nipple soldered onto a new cable and it was perfect - it fit into the caliper and effectively disappeared; there is a nice crimper that also apparently works well.

I have heard that about spoke nipples. I plan on trying that the next time I need to replace one of these inner cables. Also, 3/32" brass tubing works great for shifter cables. They fit both the trigger and the barrel adjuster perfectly. In fact, they are a much better fit than the factory crimped ended cables. These don't need soldering. I've been using JB Weld and a very light crimp on these for years now with no failures. There's really no need for pinch bolt adapters at the indicator chain if you don't like them.

desconhecido 08-07-18 10:18 AM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 20492743)
Too bad about the handlebars. I wonder how that happened without other damage.

Probably happened in the garage while being stored. Bumped it with the car or something. Those bars are surprisingly fragile considering the steel construction.

hdkct 08-07-18 12:44 PM

Apologies to all if this subject has been covered. I would really love to take on a rebuild project with a Raleigh 3-speed, preferably a Sport or Superbe, but my limited experience in fitting one of these bikes shows that the 23 inch frame is just too small for me. I am 6' 1" and my knees practically hit the handlebars. I am sure this is a common problem. Does anybody have any advice? I am aware that there is also a 24" frame available on the Tourist model, but I hardly ever see those up for sale.

dweenk 08-07-18 12:49 PM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 20492743)
I Searched and couldn't find another Three Spires. My son just got this for his girlfriend. He was a little sad a couple years ago when I sold my Triumph to make room for another road bike. 1961 hub date. All original but the tires? Too bad about the handlebars. I wonder how that happened without other damage. The fender stays are super straight which is kinda neat.



I have Raleigh handlebar (painted black) that is yours for the cost of shipping. BTW shipping bars will not be cheap I fear.

Is that a day sailer in the background?

Salubrious 08-07-18 01:27 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20492815)
Nice original bike.
The only drawback is those early Raleigh brake calipers.
The proprietary cables are difficult to find (NOS)
and I don't think anyone has a devised an easy/good looking fix.

The ball end can be removed by heating it up with a propane torch. It can then be transferred to a new bit of cable, if the old cable is no longer serviceable. The soldering is the tricky bit- a tin lead antimony solder or similar is my recommendation. The antimony helps the solder work with other materials (like the cable itself) and makes the solderjoint stronger.

In this way I made new cables for my 1935 Roadster, whose cables were beyond redemption.

Classtime 08-07-18 02:17 PM


Originally Posted by dweenk (Post 20493563)
I have Raleigh handlebar (painted black) that is yours for the cost of shipping. BTW shipping bars will not be cheap I fear.

Is that a day sailer in the background?

Iíll ask my son if he is interested in the bars.
That is a 16 foot Sid Skiff from North West School of Wooden Boatbuilding. 3 rowing stations and to rigs: 90 feet of spritsail with jib or 75 feet of standing lug.

BigChief 08-07-18 02:28 PM


Originally Posted by hdkct (Post 20493554)
Apologies to all if this subject has been covered. I would really love to take on a rebuild project with a Raleigh 3-speed, preferably a Sport or Superbe, but my limited experience in fitting one of these bikes shows that the 23 inch frame is just too small for me. I am 6' 1" and my knees practically hit the handlebars. I am sure this is a common problem. Does anybody have any advice? I am aware that there is also a 24" frame available on the Tourist model, but I hardly ever see those up for sale.

I'm 6'1" and , going straight, my knees miss the handlebar by a good 3 inches. It's only when I make a sharp U turn that I instinctively move my inside knee out to clear the bar. You could change the stem for a taller or longer necked version. Any 22.2mm stem will fit the fork tube, but Raleighs use 15/16" handlebars, so you would need to shim them to fit the 1" stem clamp you're likely to find on the replacement. I've done this before, not a problem. Depending on how far you move the handlebar, you may have to make up custom length cables. I did that with this bike. It's a 21" frame that I modified with a long Sunlite touring stem to fit me.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...de1cbb67d4.jpg

ascherer 08-07-18 03:11 PM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 20489947)

I haven't seen one of those VBT water bottles in a long time!

browngw 08-07-18 03:33 PM


Originally Posted by hdkct (Post 20493554)
Apologies to all if this subject has been covered. I would really love to take on a rebuild project with a Raleigh 3-speed, preferably a Sport or Superbe, but my limited experience in fitting one of these bikes shows that the 23 inch frame is just too small for me. I am 6' 1" and my knees practically hit the handlebars. I am sure this is a common problem. Does anybody have any advice? I am aware that there is also a 24" frame available on the Tourist model, but I hardly ever see those up for sale.

Check to see how the saddle clamp is oriented. I'm close to 6ft and find that a 23" sports frame is nearly perfect if the clamp bolt is behind the seat post instead of in front of it. Many sports I have found were clamp in front like my recent '72 shown. Even on my 24" DL1, the clamp is behind. It is okay either way but can give you more room.https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8d047ea225.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...aaa0710776.jpg

gster 08-07-18 04:35 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20493752)
I'm 6'1" and , going straight, my knees miss the handlebar by a good 3 inches. It's only when I make a sharp U turn that I instinctively move my inside knee out to clear the bar. You could change the stem for a taller or longer necked version. Any 22.2mm stem will fit the fork tube, but Raleighs use 15/16" handlebars, so you would need to shim them to fit the 1" stem clamp you're likely to find on the replacement. I've done this before, not a problem. Depending on how far you move the handlebar, you may have to make up custom length cables. I did that with this bike. It's a 21" frame that I modified with a long Sunlite touring stem to fit me.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...de1cbb67d4.jpg

I'm 6' (that's what my licence says) and I can ride any of the frame sizes (21'-23") with proper seat/handle bar height adjustments.
The 23" frame is my preferred choice and find them a comfortable ride.
As a result, I'm letting go of a couple of my 21" bikes.
A Superbe and a Hercules.
Time to cull the herd.

hdkct 08-08-18 07:16 AM

Thanks for the suggestions. I will give them a try.

Buellster 08-08-18 07:32 AM

I found this beauty on my Local FB marketplace. I know it's just a sport but the condition is something to behold. Guy wants $125 for it. I rode it around a parking lot for a bit and it feels wonderful. Seat is lose and he said it will need a new one (old rail seat system but I believe I have a replacement that will work). It has some little rust spots here and there but nothing major. He also said the the cotter pin on the left crank is about shot and that it will need a new one next time the BB gets work. Most importantly it's my size at 23". I'm certainly considering it. This condition for a 60s sport seems worth the higher price than what a sport usually calls for...
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...41d864b1c4.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7cc0089ef0.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c69eebf10c.jpg

How bad is a dent on a hub like this?
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6e1e78a539.jpg

Some rust here and there but nothing major

gster 08-08-18 08:51 AM


Originally Posted by Buellster (Post 20494802)
I found this beauty on my Local FB marketplace. I know it's just a sport but the condition is something to behold. Guy wants $125 for it. I rode it around a parking lot for a bit and it feels wonderful. Seat is lose and he said it will need a new one (old rail seat system but I believe I have a replacement that will work). It has some little rust spots here and there but nothing major. He also said the the cotter pin on the left crank is about shot and that it will need a new one next time the BB gets work. Most importantly it's my size at 23". I'm certainly considering it. This condition for a 60s sport seems worth the higher price than what a sport usually calls for...
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...41d864b1c4.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7cc0089ef0.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c69eebf10c.jpg

How bad is a dent on a hub like this?
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6e1e78a539.jpg

Some rust here and there but nothing major

$125.00 seems a very reasonable price.

BigChief 08-08-18 09:27 AM

I agree. This is a good bike, priced right. If you keep it in a reasonably dry place and give it a coat of wax once in a while, you can stop any further rusting in it's tracks. Rims look very good. Originally this bike came with a Brooks B72 and Dare grips. Other than those it looks original. I like it.

mrv 08-08-18 11:19 AM

@Buellster - I'm thinking about one of these in my area - probably the one with the new Brooks grips & new GYES saddle (seat -whatever). It's more pricey. No fenders though. Not sure.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...21eace82f7.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8d0e576c62.jpg

Buellster 08-08-18 11:27 AM


Originally Posted by mrv (Post 20495248)
@Buellster - I'm thinking about one of these in my area - probably the one with the new Brooks grips & new GYES saddle (seat -whatever). It's more pricey. No fenders though. Not sure.

Oh man that's a tough one!
The one tour thinking has some shcwabe titles too!
I do just LOVE the fenders though. My heart would be with the one with the fenders still on it. Then again I'm a sucker for looks as opposed to the one your on which may well be a better bet quality wise haha

dweenk 08-08-18 11:48 AM

My vote is for the bike with fenders. You would have a complete (or nearly complete) bike to begin whatever project suits your taste.

BigChief 08-08-18 12:03 PM

To me, a complete bike is always worth more than an incomplete one in similar condition.

Buellster 08-08-18 01:05 PM

What are the chances the cotter pin and seat post from my 78 Raleigh sport will work with my 60's raliegh sport?
I'm considering using the first for parts on the second. It doesnt need many, but it sure would be convenient if I could use the bike I have for parts.

desconhecido 08-08-18 01:15 PM

For the love of English 3 speeds...


Originally Posted by Buellster (Post 20495467)
What are the chances the cotter pin and seat post from my 78 Raleigh sport will work with my 60's raliegh sport?
I'm considering using the first for parts on the second. It doesnt need many, but it sure would be convenient if I could use the bike I have for parts.

My guess is the chances are very good. To the best of my knowledge, Raleigh Sports bikes take 25.4 mm seatposts and all the bottom brackets and bb spindles are interchangeable. The later bikes have two stays on the rear fenders, no white tail, but that's easy to remedy. If you have parts from a 78 to update your 60s bike, take a look at the brakes and levers. Though it would be anachronistic to put the later brakes on the earlier bike, they are better brakes and levers. So, what do you do, enhance the bike as a bike or adhear to period correctness?

edit:

That green bike is pretty decent and not an outrageous price, in my opinion, regardless the butt ugly saddle. That, of course, brings up the problem with Raleigh Sports. It'll take $75 to $100 to get a decent saddle on that sucker. Cheap bikes have a a tendency to not stay cheap for long.

Buellster 08-08-18 01:31 PM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20495486)
For the love of English 3 speeds...



My guess is the chances are very good. To the best of my knowledge, Raleigh Sports bikes take 25.4 mm seatposts and all the bottom brackets and bb spindles are interchangeable. The later bikes have two stays on the rear fenders, no white tail, but that's easy to remedy. If you have parts from a 78 to update your 60s bike, take a look at the brakes and levers. Though it would be anachronistic to put the later brakes on the earlier bike, they are better brakes and levers. So, what do you do, enhance the bike as a bike or adhear to period correctness?

edit:

That green bike is pretty decent and not an outrageous price, in my opinion, regardless the butt ugly saddle. That, of course, brings up the problem with Raleigh Sports. It'll take $75 to $100 to get a decent saddle on that sucker. Cheap bikes have a a tendency to not stay cheap for long.

Good to know!
haha I'm not super concerned with the saddle. I've got a decent one to put on it untill I can find a decent replacement.

gster 08-08-18 06:41 PM


Originally Posted by mrv (Post 20495248)
@Buellster - I'm thinking about one of these in my area - probably the one with the new Brooks grips & new GYES saddle (seat -whatever). It's more pricey. No fenders though. Not sure.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...21eace82f7.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8d0e576c62.jpg

On the Path Racer, the cost of the seat, grips and tires exceeds the asking price.
I would assume that the cables and pads are new as well.
I bet the seller's got at least $400,00 tied up in it. Bike/Parts/Labour.
The Gyes saddles are well made ( I have one) but take some time to break in.
It's like vintage cars ,it's always better to buy one that somebody else has spent their money on.


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