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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

gaucho777 03-22-12 06:29 PM

A day or even just overnight just be enough to pre-stretch the tires. Why not go ahead an put the 2nd tire on one of the rims you plan to use so you can glue them both at the same time? Btw, you only got 2 tires? What if you get a flat?

DirtyHarry714 03-22-12 06:57 PM


Originally Posted by gaucho777 (Post 14005128)
A day or even just overnight just be enough to pre-stretch the tires. Why not go ahead an put the 2nd tire on one of the rims you plan to use so you can glue them both at the same time? Btw, you only got 2 tires? What if you get a flat?

That's why i have 4 bikes :)

Bianchigirll 03-22-12 07:07 PM


Originally Posted by gaucho777 (Post 14005128)
A day or even just overnight just be enough to pre-stretch the tires. Why not go ahead an put the 2nd tire on one of the rims you plan to use so you can glue them both at the same time? Btw, you only got 2 tires? What if you get a flat?


Originally Posted by DirtyHarry714 (Post 14005263)
That's why i have 4 bikes :)

I believe he means what f you get a flat while your out riding? you need to carry a spare and a C02 cartridge

DirtyHarry714 03-22-12 07:14 PM


Originally Posted by Bianchigirll (Post 14005287)
I believe he means what f you get a flat while your out riding? you need to carry a spare and a C02 cartridge

I don't even ride with a patch kit

Road Fan 03-24-12 12:58 PM


Originally Posted by gaucho777 (Post 14005128)
A day or even just overnight just be enough to pre-stretch the tires. Why not go ahead an put the 2nd tire on one of the rims you plan to use so you can glue them both at the same time? Btw, you only got 2 tires? What if you get a flat?

If you're just learning tubulars, you may find that after installing a few tires you can just go ahead and install new tires without pre-stretching.

Road Fan 03-24-12 01:00 PM


Originally Posted by DirtyHarry714 (Post 14005316)
I don't even ride with a patch kit

With tubulars a patch kit is worth about nothing while on the road, but a spare tire and a decent pump or CO2 will get you home. You could walk instead, but walking 31 miles home after you flat at the midpoint of a metric could ruin your day, especially in cleated cycling shoes modern or vintage.

mkadam68 03-24-12 01:53 PM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 14011474)
With tubulars a patch kit is worth about nothing while on the road, but a spare tire and a decent pump or CO2 will get you home. You could walk instead, but walking 31 miles home after you flat at the midpoint of a metric could ruin your day, especially in cleated cycling shoes modern or vintage.

Take the shoes off. Walk barefoot. :D (I did once after breaking my chain, about 5-miles from home.)

Road Fan 03-24-12 06:55 PM


Originally Posted by mkadam68 (Post 14011624)
Take the shoes off. Walk barefoot. :D (I did once after breaking my chain, about 5-miles from home.)

That doesn't sound like a major improvement! I like to pack a spare tubular and a small Blackburn pump. I'll gladly carry the 500g rather than expect to walk home.

Especially barefoot!

big chainring 03-24-12 07:57 PM

I bought several Vittoria Rally tubulars last year. They are kinda lumpy and twisted. I tried and tried to straighten them when i glued them on, but the tires themselves just aren't round.

Anyone tried the Milano tires by Schwalbe?

Road Fan 03-24-12 08:36 PM

I've had good and bad 23 mm Rallys, as have others here. YMMV. I haven't tried the Milanos. I do like Gommitalia Champion though I've only used a pair. I also think the Yellow Jersey Servizio Corse is a real good low-cost tire. If you want to go above the $35 price point (ballpark for the Rallye), look at the Gommitalia Espresso. I think these are about as nice as some of the better cotton hand-made Vittorias of days long past.

I haven't seen any significant stretching issues with any of these tires, but I have seen occasional lumps or snakiness with Rallyes (and especially with Continental Giros). One user here sent me a handful of dead Rallyes that seem to have self-destructed without having ever been fully installed - "asploded" as some might say. I'm astounded that a company that owns the Vittoria name put it on such dreck.

big chainring 03-25-12 12:08 PM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 14012778)
I've had good and bad 23 mm Rallys, as have others here. YMMV. I haven't tried the Milanos. I do like Gommitalia Champion though I've only used a pair. I also think the Yellow Jersey Servizio Corse is a real good low-cost tire. If you want to go above the $35 price point (ballpark for the Rallye), look at the Gommitalia Espresso. I think these are about as nice as some of the better cotton hand-made Vittorias of days long past.

I haven't seen any significant stretching issues with any of these tires, occasional lumps or snakiness with Rallyes. One user here sent me a handful of dead Rallyes that seem to have self-destructed without having ever been fully installed - "asploded" as some might say. I'm astounded that a company that owns the Vittoria name put it on such dreck.

I have used the Yellow Jersey tires also. The tire tread is really thin. I wore thru on the rear tire in about 600 miles. Front barely showed wear.
The Gommitalia sounds like an option. Just looking to step up a bit with the tires. They should be round and not lumpy, at least. Problem is I grew up on Clements.

mkadam68 03-25-12 12:51 PM


Originally Posted by big chainring (Post 14014578)
I have used the Yellow Jersey tires also. The tire tread is really thin. I wore thru on the rear tire in about 600 miles. Front barely showed wear.
The Gommitalia sounds like an option. Just looking to step up a bit with the tires. They should be round and not lumpy, at least. Problem is I grew up on Clements.

Was this perhaps a bad tire, or is this generally true of them? I'd like to go tubular daily (love them), but I want to find a cheaper tire than what I currently use (Vittoria EVO-CX's I get for about $63ea). So I had been looking at the Yellow Jersey ones as an option. But they'd need to last at least 1,200 or more miles and I'm a clyde (I get that mileage from my Michelin clinchers).

big chainring 03-25-12 02:38 PM


Originally Posted by mkadam68 (Post 14014731)
Was this perhaps a bad tire, or is this generally true of them? I'd like to go tubular daily (love them), but I want to find a cheaper tire than what I currently use (Vittoria EVO-CX's I get for about $63ea). So I had been looking at the Yellow Jersey ones as an option. But they'd need to last at least 1,200 or more miles and I'm a clyde (I get that mileage from my Michelin clinchers).

Yeah, I am no lightweight either. I'm about 210. The rear tire got that flat profile look where the tread was completely bare . I flatted on a piece of glass. When I dug the glass out i realized that the tread was just about gone. I'm guessing 600 miles, no way it was over 800 miles. And like I said the front tire looked like new. Maybe it is a weight thing, and us 200+ guys wear the tires out quicker.

cadillacmike68 03-28-12 12:22 PM


Originally Posted by ultraman6970 (Post 13643437)
I dont agree with neurocop that much. :)

Any old timer here still using tubulars???

I've been running strictly tubs since early 1978.

I've actually repaired pinhole flats in the past by taking the tire apart as described here, but usually i get a larger puncture (sometimes in the sidewall) that's not repairable, or I have a blowout if it's an older tire where the sidewall finally lets go. Eventually I'll have all the older tires used up and will be using just the Serviso Corsa & Panaracers that I bought from Yellow Jersey.

lotek 03-29-12 11:11 AM


Originally Posted by big chainring (Post 14012637)
Anyone tried the Milano tires by Schwalbe?

I wrote to WesternBikeworks since I see they don't list Gommitalia anymore (they were special promotion and they won't carry them again),
shame since I could get Espressos for under $50.
I asked about the Schwalbe Milano and they said they stopped carrying them due to lots of customer complaints
about quality. They felt the Vittoria Rallye was a better training tire.
Has anyone used the Vittoria Rubino tubular, or any of the Kenda tubulars?
need to find new general use tire since I can't get espressos cheaply anymore

anymore.

sced 03-29-12 12:28 PM

I have been using Continental Giros with a bit more success than the Ralleys and the YJs. Might be worth a try.

http://www.probikekit.com/us/tyres-t...tyre-22mm.html

RobbieTunes 03-29-12 01:05 PM


Originally Posted by lotek (Post 14031505)
I wrote to WesternBikeworks since I see they don't list Gommitalia anymore (they were special promotion and they won't carry them again),
shame since I could get Espressos for under $50.
I asked about the Schwalbe Milano and they said they stopped carrying them due to lots of customer complaints
about quality. They felt the Vittoria Rallye was a better training tire.
Has anyone used the Vittoria Rubino tubular, or any of the Kenda tubulars?
need to find new general use tire since I can't get espressos cheaply anymore

anymore.

Have you looked into Tufo's? I got two tires, two tapes, $103 delivered.

RobbieTunes 03-29-12 01:07 PM


Originally Posted by big chainring (Post 14015008)
Yeah, I am no lightweight either. I'm about 210. The rear tire got that flat profile look where the tread was completely bare . I flatted on a piece of glass. When I dug the glass out i realized that the tread was just about gone. I'm guessing 600 miles, no way it was over 800 miles. And like I said the front tire looked like new. Maybe it is a weight thing, and us 200+ guys wear the tires out quicker.

How many times has your mother told you to quit skidding that back tire, young man??!!! One more time, you're grounded.

lotek 03-29-12 01:57 PM

Robbie,
I had a pair of Tufo Elite Roads about 5 or 6 years ago, I didn't like the fact they were not
repairable, I also had a horrid time with the tape, I used the original tape which created a sticky
gooey mess on my rims. The other issue I had with them was I thought they were rather dead
feeling, worse than the original barum tubulars. Maybe I should give them a second chance,
any recommended models?

Marty

Grand Bois 03-29-12 03:04 PM

Get the Extreme Tufo tape. I'm able to move the tires from one rim to another by rolling them off. The tape peels cleanly off of the rim, but stays attached to the base tape.

CMAW 04-02-12 02:06 AM

A few total newb questions on the use of tape:

I did my first 120 km on a set of tubulars and everything went pico bello. Jantex tape, easily applied, nice ride. What happens however in case of a flat? I did one test, took off a tubular (came off very very easily, maybe a bit too) and the tape stayed on the rim. So in that case I could simply put on a spare and drive home. What if the tape clings to the tubular. Do you have to carry a spare roll of tape? And do you need to put on fresh tape every time you change out a tubular?

Also, I've been cleaning up a Nisi rim. These are not smooth, like Mavics, but ribbed and with extra drillium between the spoke holes. I see the logic glue-wise but does that make them unsuited for tape?

Lastly, I remember there was a thread on regluing base-tape but I don't seem to find it. So, what glue do you use to do that.

Road Fan 04-02-12 05:20 AM


Originally Posted by big chainring (Post 14014578)
I have used the Yellow Jersey tires also. The tire tread is really thin. I wore thru on the rear tire in about 600 miles. Front barely showed wear.
The Gommitalia sounds like an option. Just looking to step up a bit with the tires. They should be round and not lumpy, at least. Problem is I grew up on Clements.

Clements were a hard act to follow. Personally I think Gommi is up in that neighborhood. Plus, be aware that the inheritor of Clement designs, machines, and tech is Challenge. They are made in Asia, but they are quite good. I have a pair of 27 mm Paris Roubaix tubulars and I think those are great tires.

Road Fan 04-02-12 05:35 AM


Originally Posted by CMAW (Post 14046399)
A few total newb questions on the use of tape:

I did my first 120 km on a set of tubulars and everything went pico bello. Jantex tape, easily applied, nice ride. What happens however in case of a flat? I did one test, took off a tubular (came off very very easily, maybe a bit too) and the tape stayed on the rim. So in that case I could simply put on a spare and drive home. What if the tape clings to the tubular. Do you have to carry a spare roll of tape? And do you need to put on fresh tape every time you change out a tubular?

Also, I've been cleaning up a Nisi rim. These are not smooth, like Mavics, but ribbed and with extra drillium between the spoke holes. I see the logic glue-wise but does that make them unsuited for tape?

Lastly, I remember there was a thread on regluing base-tape but I don't seem to find it. So, what glue do you use to do that.

Pretty sure all that info is in this thread, but that doesn't mean the BF search engine will be properly helpful. Most of us who grew up on tubulars use cement, not tape, though there are a few converts. With glues, my opinion is that you can pull off the old tire and put on the new over the old glue, and keep riding, in normal riding. If you're out for a go-fast day, using all your power all the time, I might not even be comfortable with that, and would want to install a pre-glued tire. I've never glued on a tire on the road. I'm sure it's possible.

I haven't tried Nisi rims with tape. That old drilled/ribbed design dates back to the '50s, I certainly had some NOS in the late '60s early '70s. I'm sure they'll be great with good gluing. You're embarking on an experiment with the tape, but I don't see why it shouldn't work, unless Tufo have some notes on this point.

Gluing the tire to the rim (making a bond between the base tape and the rim) should be done with tubular cement, such as Vittoria Mastik (I risk starting a flame war by saying that!). Re-attaching a base tape to the tire usually is done with liquid latex such as Jevelot Tire Life. It's a home procedure (needs good ventilation!!!), not a road procedure. The tire to base tape is expected to be more permanent than the base tape to rim. This facilitates roadside replacement.

Tufo sells a sealant. I think their intent was to make the tubular tire a repair-free system. With their sealant in the tire, the tire does not need to be repairable (Not my belief, but I do think it's theirs). With strong tape, the tire does not need to be removed except for replacement. I've not used their tires or their system enough to know how to handle compatibility between tape glue and normal glue.

rootboy 04-02-12 07:00 AM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 14046607)
Re-attaching a base tape to the tire usually is done with liquid latex such as Jevelot Tire Life. It's a home procedure (needs good ventilation!!!), not a road procedure. The tire to base tape is expected to be more permanent than the base tape to rim. This facilitates roadside replacement.

I would only disagree with one small point in your post if I may Road Fan. The tire to base tape connection is, I agree, expected to be more permanent. Thus, I believe liquid latex is the wrong material to use. Liquid latex peels right off most things you could attach it to, though will sink in to base tape and tire casing a bit. It doesn't make for a very strong bond though. I think liquid latex is best used to re-coat sidewall casings. For adhering base tape to the tire casing, tire cement or contact cement, essentially the same thing, is a better choice I believe.

mkadam68 04-09-12 07:11 PM

Here's a question for y'all:

Within the last 2 weeks, I've gotten 2 sidewall blowouts. The hole seems to appear right near where the tire rubber meets the casing, close to the edge of the rim. I ride Vittoria Corsa EVO-CX's (23). Why would this happen? While one happened in a fast-paced training ride and one during a crit, neither resulted in mishap, but could easily have.

I'm new at tubulars & gluing. Is it possible that some of the glue, having gotten on the sidewall due to my poor gluing skills, weakened the rubber/casing juncture? I've been using Continental glue (carbon rims).

Also, I had one of these tires repaired by Tire Alert and I can see the base tape pulling away from the tire, but still sticking to the rim. I had planned on using him again, but am not too confident now.

Bianchigirll 04-09-12 07:36 PM

Pics? I suspect something is rubbing on them. Maybe a ziptie from a cadence sensor a brake pad....

mkadam68 04-09-12 08:30 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Here's my original (:eek: It seems to have "healed" and is currently holding air! Perhaps Stan's NoTubes worked its magic over the past week?)
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-I...7/IMG_0443.JPG

Here's my latest flat:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-q...7/IMG_0440.JPG

Your suggestions have me thinking, and I am wondering: given the lines along the edge of the sidewalls, they look as if something has rubbed them raw, so maybe the brake pads are rubbing. I'll take a look.

mkadam68 04-14-12 09:39 PM

Took both tires into my LBS, spoke w/mechanic. He hadn't seen it before. But, ruled out rubbing brakepads: the pads are at least 5mm away from edge of tires. (A fellow rider thought it might be lateral flex in the rim that would bring the tire "down" to the brakepads, but that 5mm is too much.)

Instead, he thought, given I'm a clydesdale, perhaps the deforming of the tire as it rolls on the ground was to blame. The rims I ride are cheapo Hong Kong generics. He thought the edge of these rims might be on the "sharp" side, hitting the sidewall of the tire as it is compressed between my weight and the roadway below, and causing damage. He suggested pumping the tires to 120-125psi (I usually ride them at 110psi).

After a bit of reflection, I'm thinking that the tire compression is not the problem (although it is frustrating because I now don't have any alternatives). I have two wheels: an 88mm and 50mm rim. I have flatted on both of them in this fashion (sidewall blowout), causing my above post on the matter. The 50mm rim is brand new with less than 200 miles on it, but the 88mm rim has been ridden by my son and me for over 1,000 miles (in training, time-trialing, road race and criterium settings) before it happened to that wheel. (Granted, the tire on that rim had much less mileage, although I'm unsure of exactly how much: probably around 100-ish or so.)

Any thoughts or other ideas before I slap on another $63 tire at higher pressure?

Road Fan 04-15-12 06:59 AM


Originally Posted by rootboy (Post 14046837)
I would only disagree with one small point in your post if I may Road Fan. The tire to base tape connection is, I agree, expected to be more permanent. Thus, I believe liquid latex is the wrong material to use. Liquid latex peels right off most things you could attach it to, though will sink in to base tape and tire casing a bit. It doesn't make for a very strong bond though. I think liquid latex is best used to re-coat sidewall casings. For adhering base tape to the tire casing, tire cement or contact cement, essentially the same thing, is a better choice I believe.

Dang now you're gonna make me do research and reconstruct why I think that! I know it's possible to have a glue that is too strong, that will prevent you from pulling off the base tape to access the seam and patch the tube. I recall that a neoprene bond (contact cement deposits neoprene into a bond) is strong enough to let you tear the base tape rather than pull it off. But I don't have a better answer at this time.

On my own tires I've rarely needed to re-cement the base tape. The segment that is separated from the tire carcass is just a few inches, and I just put some rim cement in there and depend on tire pressure to hold it all together. So far so good. I can't say if it's the best engineering solution, but it's worked for my riding.

I also wonder if there can be compatibility issues between various cements, solvents, and the rubbers used to make the tire. The carcass can be made of say, cotton impregnated or doped with something rubbery, there's a rubber compound (latex or butyl) in the tube, and who knows what in the tread. Seems to me there's a system there, but I'm not a chemist. Maybe some chemist or chem E here can think about if there are any compatibility issues, leading to preferring certain adhesives for the different roles in tubular tire manufacture.

Sorry for speculating, but Rootboy I see your point, and can't recall exactly why I didn't choose it.

rootboy 04-15-12 07:57 AM

Well, I must admit I'm going off much more limited experience than most folks here. I too used liquid latex back in the 70's, and it works. I believe it was the recommended stuff, and still is, as far as I can tell. I did notice once though that it didn't seem to stick all that well and that is when I tried an alternative. Compatibility could be an issue. I hadn't thought of that. Contact cement is pretty strong stuff, in more ways than one. I hope it doesn't somehow react with the rubbers in the tires. By the way, I generally have used one coat of contact cement, on the tape, and apply it when still "wet", or slightly skinned over. I was afraid two coats, allowed to dry and then pressed together, as per directions on the can, might prove to be too much. All just based on my somewhat limited experience. YMMV of course.


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