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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

barnfind 01-28-21 06:00 PM

Another thought, what about the Suntour version of the AW?

I would also venture to guess that if there wasn't some sort of license deal, they wouldn't have been able to continue making the Steyr or any version for so many years.
I've seen them ranging from around 1958 through 1975 or so on Sears sold bikes,

I don't see the Sachs Torpedo being a pirated copy, its similar in design but shares no parts with the AW.

SirMike1983 01-29-21 10:15 AM


Originally Posted by Unca_Sam (Post 21898608)
They'll work fine.

Thanks. I'll probably convert to the loose 1/4 bearing balls when I run out of caged bearings.

Unca_Sam 01-29-21 10:20 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 21900619)
Thanks. I'll probably convert to the loose 1/4 bearing balls when I run out of caged bearings.

I guess the biggest downside is that you'll need a bed of grease to bed them into while you adjust the cones. If you wanted to make an "oil only" hub, that grease will just end up adding to the mess.

sykerocker 01-29-21 03:06 PM

It is with great joy that I've finally turned out my first restoration in the new shop since the fire, 14 months ago. The '55 Royal Enfield cleaned up fairly well, I still need to find a seat for the bike as the original is definitely on its final legs. Otherwise I managed to save just about everything. Of course, being a 21" frame, it's too small for me. Hopefully going to use it a trade bait for something in a Sports or a roadster with a 23" frame. Very unfortunately, I'm going to be passing on Westminster, MD in two weeks. I just don't feel safe enough to hit crowds like that just yet. Which is a shame, because if there was ever a year where I'd be going to buy all sorts of mundane, not terribly valuable, parts this would have been it.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...536c419d0.jpeg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a0faca143.jpeg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6bdbe5a78.jpeg

oldspokes 01-29-21 03:55 PM


Originally Posted by sykerocker (Post 21901039)
It is with great joy that I've finally turned out my first restoration in the new shop since the fire, 14 months ago. The '55 Royal Enfield cleaned up fairly well, I still need to find a seat for the bike as the original is definitely on its final legs. Otherwise I managed to save just about everything. Of course, being a 21" frame, it's too small for me. Hopefully going to use it a trade bait for something in a Sports or a roadster with a 23" frame. Very unfortunately, I'm going to be passing on Westminster, MD in two weeks. I just don't feel safe enough to hit crowds like that just yet. Which is a shame, because if there was ever a year where I'd be going to buy all sorts of mundane, not terribly valuable, parts this would have been it.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...536c419d0.jpeghttps://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a0faca143.jpeghttps://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6bdbe5a78.jpeg

Nice looking bike, and a brand I haven't seen in a while.
Were they the original rims?
Every steel wheel bike I find around here either has severe brake wear or major rust damage. I don't think I've found a rust free set of steel rims on anything since the mid 90's or so here.
The only bikes I've got with perfect rims are those I bought new myself back in the day.
Years ago, I bought a new Schwinn Varsity 10 speed, from day one that bike had a Huret/Schwinn Speedometer on it. I put over 24,000 miles on that bike. The wheels on that bike never showed any brake pad wear, or rust. It got kept in the garage, it got used rain or shine for 8 years and then handed down to various relatives when I was done with it. I got it back about 15 years ago and went through the whole bike, the rims are still original. (The 9,999 mile capable speedometer had rolled over again and was reading 32 miles with a broken cable). So it boggles my mind when I see so many bikes with the chrome burned off the rims. I'm also no lightweight, and I went through brake pads pretty fast, but never once did the rim show any wear. Chrome is pretty hard stuff, especially compared to a rubber brake pad.
I bought a ladies Hercules off an old woman. The bike had a hub dated 1965. She told me her sister owned the bike since it was new.
The tires were original Dunlop and likely original. the paint was flawless, there was no rust on the bike, yet both rims had nearly no chrome on the sides, both worn down to bare steel. The rest of the bike's chrome was flawless. I have a same year Robin Hood that's been in my family since new, the rims are perfect. The original Lucas Cyclometer on it reads 4,690 miles the last I checked.
As a large guy, and I'd classify myself as slightly abusive when I was younger when it came to my bikes, its hard to understand how so many rims are suddenly worn so badly.

oldspokes 01-29-21 04:16 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 21899156)
an interesting article
http://www.sturmey-archerheritage.co.../view-1369.pdf
Covers the Austrian hubs as well as the SW problem...
Worth reading
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ccb0de5f79.jpg

That article doesn't make much sense, if they were pirate copies or bootleg hubs there's no way SA would have let it continue for so long.
The pics of the parts in that article do not match what I've found over the years in those Sears and JC Higgins hubs here. They've been every bit as reliable as a Sturmey Archer. My take was that SA likely sold them the rights to make the older removable left bearing cup version of the AW hub. I've not seen an Austrian hub with a pressed in left side cup.

I've always assumed that the Schwinn Approved hubs were made by Sturmey Archer, I've never noticed any real difference in the internals before. I own two on early 60's Schwinn bikes that both say Made in England along with the Schwinn Approved stamping.
More often than not though, most Schwinn's I see have normally marked SA AW hubs.

sykerocker 01-29-21 08:39 PM


Originally Posted by oldspokes (Post 21901103)
Nice looking bike, and a brand I haven't seen in a while.
Were they the original rims?
Every steel wheel bike I find around here either has severe brake wear or major rust damage. I don't think I've found a rust free set of steel rims on anything since the mid 90's or so here.
The only bikes I've got with perfect rims are those I bought new myself back in the day.
Years ago, I bought a new Schwinn Varsity 10 speed, from day one that bike had a Huret/Schwinn Speedometer on it. I put over 24,000 miles on that bike. The wheels on that bike never showed any brake pad wear, or rust. It got kept in the garage, it got used rain or shine for 8 years and then handed down to various relatives when I was done with it. I got it back about 15 years ago and went through the whole bike, the rims are still original. (The 9,999 mile capable speedometer had rolled over again and was reading 32 miles with a broken cable). So it boggles my mind when I see so many bikes with the chrome burned off the rims. I'm also no lightweight, and I went through brake pads pretty fast, but never once did the rim show any wear. Chrome is pretty hard stuff, especially compared to a rubber brake pad.
I bought a ladies Hercules off an old woman. The bike had a hub dated 1965. She told me her sister owned the bike since it was new.
The tires were original Dunlop and likely original. the paint was flawless, there was no rust on the bike, yet both rims had nearly no chrome on the sides, both worn down to bare steel. The rest of the bike's chrome was flawless. I have a same year Robin Hood that's been in my family since new, the rims are perfect. The original Lucas Cyclometer on it reads 4,690 miles the last I checked.
As a large guy, and I'd classify myself as slightly abusive when I was younger when it came to my bikes, its hard to understand how so many rims are suddenly worn so badly.

As best I can tell, they're original. The only things on the bike obviously not original were the front brake caliper and lever, the fender mounting point to the fork was snapped, and the fork was slightly bent back. Somewhere along the way, the original owner ran into something and put the bike away, where it sat for decades. The paint isn't quite as nice as it looks in the pictures, but given we're talking 66 years, I'm not going to complain.

In the next week or two I'm going to ride it up to my buddy's motorcycle shop. He'll get a good chuckle, as he's been restoring a '69 Royal Enfield 750 Interceptor for the past two years.

homelessjoe 01-30-21 01:12 AM

In the last year Ive seen four Dunelts for sale around Ann Arbor Michigan for between...450.00 to 550.00.....and there have been others on ebay where they are asking big money....maybe we missed something........so I dug one out of my barn shined it up and tossed on some new tires just in case somethings up......ya gotta be prepared and play all the angles

homelessjoe 01-30-21 02:15 AM

also
 
Ive had two sets of wheels that have Shimano three speed hubs with coasted brakes in the shed for years........so I cleaned them up and tossed them on some old frames i had about...........they look beautiful...like fixies without brakes and cables and are so much fun to ride......they are by far the cheapest bikes I own now ......but Ive been riding them the most....go figure

gster 01-30-21 03:23 PM


Originally Posted by sykerocker (Post 21901039)
It is with great joy that I've finally turned out my first restoration in the new shop since the fire, 14 months ago. The '55 Royal Enfield cleaned up fairly well, I still need to find a seat for the bike as the original is definitely on its final legs. Otherwise I managed to save just about everything. Of course, being a 21" frame, it's too small for me. Hopefully going to use it a trade bait for something in a Sports or a roadster with a 23" frame. Very unfortunately, I'm going to be passing on Westminster, MD in two weeks. I just don't feel safe enough to hit crowds like that just yet. Which is a shame, because if there was ever a year where I'd be going to buy all sorts of mundane, not terribly valuable, parts this would have been it.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...536c419d0.jpeg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a0faca143.jpeg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6bdbe5a78.jpeg

A good lookin' bike.
The forks look dead on.

gster 01-31-21 09:23 AM

OT
Full on Mexican bike...
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...45728e3e51.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ccbccd5127.jpg

nlerner 01-31-21 04:55 PM

For all of those posters recently complaining about crazy high prices for old three speeds, I'm comforted by the CL ads that appear frequently in the Boston area, like this one:

https://boston.craigslist.org/nos/bi...256701080.html

dirtman 02-01-21 09:18 PM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 21903731)
For all of those posters recently complaining about crazy high prices for old three speeds, I'm comforted by the CL ads that appear frequently in the Boston area, like this one:

https://boston.craigslist.org/nos/bi...256701080.html

Ladies model = Parts bike. If that was closer and if those wheel are as clean as they look, one of my Raleighs would have a shiny new set of rims ad cranks.
The rest would go on the shelf as spare parts.

SirMike1983 02-02-21 03:22 PM

I love the chainring on that old Royal Enfield. That and the Norman are among my favorite chainrings - very expressive things (that is, as chainrings go).

gster 02-03-21 09:48 AM


Originally Posted by dirtman (Post 21905729)
Ladies model = Parts bike. If that was closer and if those wheel are as clean as they look, one of my Raleighs would have a shiny new set of rims ad cranks.
The rest would go on the shelf as spare parts.

Agreed. It seems a shame to pull a bike apart but a good wheel set makes it all worth wile.
Ladies' bikes are much readily available.
Women don't wreck their stuff like men do...
There are plenty of ladies 3 speeds available in Toronto.

gster 02-04-21 08:11 AM

As discussed
Here's a 23" men's bike offered at $150 OBO
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ce440be07a.jpg
And another ladies version offered at $175 OBO
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...daf6ab8a7b.jpg
Seller says the rims are almost perfect on the ladies bike.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9ae76f95f3.jpg

jamesj 02-04-21 10:03 PM

Does anyone know where to buy some Sun CR18 rims? The rims on my Superbe are pretty much shot.

Unca_Sam 02-04-21 10:43 PM


Originally Posted by jamesj (Post 21910409)
Does anyone know where to buy some Sun CR18 rims? The rims on my Superbe are pretty much shot.

Harris Cyclery, or you know, Google it?

dirtman 02-05-21 12:18 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 21907719)
Agreed. It seems a shame to pull a bike apart but a good wheel set makes it all worth wile.
Ladies' bikes are much readily available.
Women don't wreck their stuff like men do...
There are plenty of ladies 3 speeds available in Toronto.

The problem around here is that there were never many ladies bikes. It probably started out 50 to 1, men's to ladies models. Its just that the ladies models are the only one's that survived in decent shape.
I did stumble on a decent men's bike yesterday morning, but I had to take it apart to get it home in the company car.
Someone put a super clean Hercules in the trash, complete with a perfect set of Dunlop rims and a 10-59 AW rear hub.
It was on a main road, thousands of people had to have passed by it there all day. I saw it there at 7am but couldn't stop, it was still there at 11am when I came back that way. Laying on its side atop two trash cans on a major road leading to the bridge. I almost stopped in the morning but would have been late for a meeting, and two buddies that are retired whom I called couldn't get there.
Both rims are perfect, the tires are newer Cordovan brand from Pep Boys and there's no rust at all. The paint is 90% intact as well. The only downside is that its way too small for me. So it too is a donor for its wheels, saddle, and other chrome bits. Right next to the bike was a small aluminum Umco tackle box from the 50's, full of tools and a Dunlop branded frame pump all taken apart.
I'm going tomorrow to look at a 'DP Harris Royal made in England' from about the same period for $15 off a bulletin board at the supermarket.

jamesj 02-05-21 12:21 AM

Ummm what's google? I use ask.com


Originally Posted by Unca_Sam (Post 21910445)
Harris Cyclery, or you know, Google it?


gster 02-05-21 11:32 AM


Originally Posted by dirtman (Post 21910492)
The problem around here is that there were never many ladies bikes. It probably started out 50 to 1, men's to ladies models. Its just that the ladies models are the only one's that survived in decent shape.
I did stumble on a decent men's bike yesterday morning, but I had to take it apart to get it home in the company car.
Someone put a super clean Hercules in the trash, complete with a perfect set of Dunlop rims and a 10-59 AW rear hub.
It was on a main road, thousands of people had to have passed by it there all day. I saw it there at 7am but couldn't stop, it was still there at 11am when I came back that way. Laying on its side atop two trash cans on a major road leading to the bridge. I almost stopped in the morning but would have been late for a meeting, and two buddies that are retired whom I called couldn't get there.
Both rims are perfect, the tires are newer Cordovan brand from Pep Boys and there's no rust at all. The paint is 90% intact as well. The only downside is that its way too small for me. So it too is a donor for its wheels, saddle, and other chrome bits. Right next to the bike was a small aluminum Umco tackle box from the 50's, full of tools and a Dunlop branded frame pump all taken apart.
I'm going tomorrow to look at a 'DP Harris Royal made in England' from about the same period for $15 off a bulletin board at the supermarket.

Lucky...
It's been years since I found a free 3 speed.
Lot's of others but I usually ignore them unless it's something special.

gster 02-05-21 11:50 AM


Originally Posted by dirtman (Post 21910492)
The problem around here is that there were never many ladies bikes. It probably started out 50 to 1, men's to ladies models. Its just that the ladies models are the only one's that survived in decent shape.
I did stumble on a decent men's bike yesterday morning, but I had to take it apart to get it home in the company car.
Someone put a super clean Hercules in the trash, complete with a perfect set of Dunlop rims and a 10-59 AW rear hub.
It was on a main road, thousands of people had to have passed by it there all day. I saw it there at 7am but couldn't stop, it was still there at 11am when I came back that way. Laying on its side atop two trash cans on a major road leading to the bridge. I almost stopped in the morning but would have been late for a meeting, and two buddies that are retired whom I called couldn't get there.
Both rims are perfect, the tires are newer Cordovan brand from Pep Boys and there's no rust at all. The paint is 90% intact as well. The only downside is that its way too small for me. So it too is a donor for its wheels, saddle, and other chrome bits. Right next to the bike was a small aluminum Umco tackle box from the 50's, full of tools and a Dunlop branded frame pump all taken apart.
I'm going tomorrow to look at a 'DP Harris Royal made in England' from about the same period for $15 off a bulletin board at the supermarket.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ea01fea732.jpg
These were offered through Firestone Stores....

keithdavis2 02-05-21 11:56 AM

You mean like this one? It doesn't say Crown but it do say Royal.
 

Originally Posted by gster (Post 21911107)
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ea01fea732.jpg
These were offered through Firestone Stores....

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e1353969a9.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...308e4d4f8b.jpg

dirtman 02-05-21 02:20 PM

That's very similar, same brand and decals, but different forks, chain guard, chainring, and bars.
This one has a cg and forks like the Royal Enfield above, Raleigh Sports style bars, and a snow flake pattern chain ring.
The saddle is a sprung, two tone vinyl model similar to the Wright saddles used on Robin Hood and Hercules bikes but this one appears to be a bit longer and lacks the Wright logo. Its a 21" frame, so its a bit small for me but still ridable. The tires on the bike aren't original but are old, they're branded Oxford Ltd, but marked made in Taiwan. They look like Dunlop copies. Surprisingly they look and feel ok, but the seller swore they're no newer than 1968. The bike has apparently hung in the garage there since that time.
All cables are original, the brakes show little to no wear on the original John Bull pads but the chain guard is pretty battered up and missing the all of its mounting hardware. The paint is 95% perfect, and all the chrome is super clean, the rims are mint, the rear hub is dated 62-12.
Since its all apart, I guess I'll start going through it bit by bit. There's a few dings in the fenders that I need to work out, I need to find CG hardware, and I'll polish up the chrome and re-tension the rims while their off. I'll also go through the rear hub while I'm at it.

I also noticed that the two brake levers are different, both are British, but one is three piece, the other a four piece, (with the toggle cable attachment).
What determined on these which chainguard, which forks, or which chainring they got? Or were they just a grab bag of parts?
The fenders use the Raleigh type solid braces, not wire braces like say a Robin Hood or Hercules. The rear fender has a Royal logo just above the white portion.

keithdavis2 02-05-21 03:40 PM

Yes I have all those bits in my parts bin. Except that is the chain ring it came with. The aluminum stem, handlebar, seat post, seat and grips are my customization to make it look cool lighten the weight as well as ride nice. I like a wider handlebar than the original. Plus the original handlebars are very rusted.
I look forward to seeing your when you are done!

gster 02-05-21 06:41 PM


Originally Posted by jamesj (Post 21910497)
Ummm what's google? I use ask.com

I've got the phone number for Google.
Just call them up.

56ford 02-06-21 07:05 PM


Originally Posted by jamesj (Post 21910409)
Does anyone know where to buy some Sun CR18 rims? The rims on my Superbe are pretty much shot.

Iíve had a 32h and a 40h on order from Nashbar since mid November. I looked today and the 32h is listed in my order as in stock but the 40h is still pending. Iím guessing they need to fill orders first before showing them in stock on the site. Might be available soon.

barnfind 02-09-21 04:08 AM

I picked up a few sets of rims at a recent cleanout, since many have tires mounted on them I figured it may be a good chance to post a pic of them side by side for comparison.
The tallest here is a 40-622 /Cheng Shin tire combo on a 700C rim
(Oddly though the rim is marked 26x1.75, but its clearly a 700C)
The next is a 650B steel rim with a 26x1 1/2" tire
then a 26x1 3/8" Sturmey Archer rim with a Raleigh Record/Cheng Shin tire
and finally a modern MTB 26x1.95 Kenda tire on a 1.75" wide rim for comparison.

The two smaller sizes are almost identical in overall diameter, the pics show the difference between them in height.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b91f29d3e5.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bbad09ecf8.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...879b3c2e5d.jpg
650B Steel rims with 26x1 5/8" tires, (Rims are marked only 26x1 1//2" - Made in England), both are 36h. Rims are completely rounded,
no real flat area on the side for a caliper to grab, not sure what these were meant for but I found four of them, each with the same tire mounted to them. They would likely fit on a Sports type bike but the sides of the rim wouldn't really allow for a great caliper alignment and fender fitment would be tight. I like the look of these rims but I think they'd be best on a bike with a hub brake of some sort.
They are heavy duty looking rims that are also drilled for a heavier spoke gauge than the average rims. either 12 or 13 gauge.
The Sturmey Archer rims are all 36h.

I figured I'd post a few of these for those thinking about swapping tire sizes.

gster 02-09-21 11:40 AM


Originally Posted by keithdavis2 (Post 21911121)

I suspect that the bikes offered up as "Hardware Store" bikes were indeed sourced form the parts bin.
All quality components but perhaps a lack of consistency in style.
Two examples of the same bike could have different chainrings, brake levers etc.
I've often wondered what the minimum order would have been back then.
Here in Canada I've seen re-branded Raleighs as
Gliders (Eatons)
Supercycle (Canadian Tire)
Rodeo (Beaver Lumber
Canadiana (Unknown)
I'm sure there's a few more odd ball brands out there as well.

dweenk 02-09-21 12:49 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 21916899)
I suspect that the bikes offered up as "Hardware Store" bikes were indeed sourced form the parts bin.
All quality components but perhaps a lack of consistency in style.
Two examples of the same bike could have different chainrings, brake levers etc.
I've often wondered what the minimum order would have been back then.
Here in Canada I've seen re-branded Raleighs as
Gliders (Eatons)
Supercycle (Canadian Tire)
Rodeo (Beaver Lumber
Canadiana (Unknown)
I'm sure there's a few more odd ball brands out there as well.

In the US there was Sears/JC Higgins (all Austrian as far as I know until Free Spirit which was a mix of British and Japanese), Montgomery Ward, Western Auto, JC Penney, and other regional department stores too numerous to mention.


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