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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

3speedslow 05-05-16 05:42 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 18744285)
yes - have done it several times, in both directions (ie older guts in newer hub, and newer guts in older hub)....last time was almost NOS 70s guts into 49 hub.....solved all sorts of irritations.

Thanks, I figured it was possible but wanted to check before I dig through the tub for a older dated hub.

Velocivixen 05-05-16 06:22 PM

Hello again....um...Is this what it's supposed to look like? Seriously there is oil dripping out the other side but the cotter isn't budging.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7707/...ffccbe4a_c.jpgdrilling cotter by velocivixen, on Flickr

clubman 05-05-16 06:38 PM

Been there...go to a smaller bit and keep drilling

Velocivixen 05-05-16 07:20 PM

I assumed I'm supposed to drill from the threaded side then decided to start drilling from the other side. What a mess. I keep whacking on it every once in awhile. On the bright side the nds adjustable cup is good. The front wheel spoke nipples are rounded off so that might be interesting. I really need to get to the bottom bracket because if it's shot then I'll need to step away for awhile.

3speedslow 05-05-16 07:28 PM

Yes, it's a mess to drill but the destruction is your salvation. Like said, go to a smaller then larger drill. Keep the oil flowing and punch it every once an awhile.

It will come out.

clubman 05-05-16 07:32 PM

I'd stay with the threaded side, at least it's forcing the cotter in the direction it would ideally like to come out. Once you get through with a small bit the cotter collapses. Of course you can go through a few bits getting there. It is definitely a job requiring determination, desperation and perspiration in equal measures. Enjoy! ;)

gna 05-05-16 10:08 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 18744523)
I'd stay with the threaded side, at least it's forcing the cotter in the direction it would ideally like to come out. Once you get through with a small bit the cotter collapses. Of course you can go through a few bits getting there. It is definitely a job requiring determination, desperation and perspiration in equal measures. Enjoy! ;)

I had one where the cotter wouldn't collapse, even with bigger and bigger bits. I could see right through. Finally I grabbed the crank arms and forced them in opposite directions and the cotter finally gave way.

BigChief 05-06-16 04:05 AM


Originally Posted by gna (Post 18744903)
I had one where the cotter wouldn't collapse, even with bigger and bigger bits. I could see right through. Finally I grabbed the crank arms and forced them in opposite directions and the cotter finally gave way.

In all my years of 3 speeds, I've never dealt with a cotter that wouldn't drift out with a punch. I've bent a few and had to saw off the threads, but still always got it out with a punch and hammer so I don't know about drilling. It seems to me that there is no force that would cause it to collapse in the center. And you can only drill it open so far because it's a D shaped pin. There's still plenty of steel stuck onto the sides of the hole. I think the idea of moving the crank arms in opposite directions makes sense. Especially if one could be held securely while the other was tapped with a mallet.

gster 05-06-16 04:47 AM

Here's a Raleigh built Supercycle for sale on Kijiji Toronto. A 3 speed hub with a coaster brake and caliper brakes as well. Priced at $225.00.https://threespeedmania.files.wordpr...271vcgzfry.jpghttps://threespeedmania.files.wordpr.../27xzdsrw1.jpghttps://threespeedmania.files.wordpr.../27vcgndf1.jpghttps://threespeedmania.files.wordpr.../27bcfzry1.jpg .

clubman 05-06-16 08:05 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 18745150)
In all my years of 3 speeds, I've never dealt with a cotter that wouldn't drift out with a punch. I've bent a few and had to saw off the threads, but still always got it out with a punch and hammer so I don't know about drilling. It seems to me that there is no force that would cause it to collapse in the center. And you can only drill it open so far because it's a D shaped pin. There's still plenty of steel stuck onto the sides of the hole. I think the idea of moving the crank arms in opposite directions makes sense. Especially if one could be held securely while the other was tapped with a mallet.

If you ever do come across a cotter that won't punch out, it's already been deformed and mushroomed further in the crevice. Drilling through relieves that pressure and 'collapse' is a generalization but it usually becomes very loose to the point that punches can finish the job. I think I've had to drill a half dozen in my decades of cotter work and I still hate it. These days a Park cotter press does the job right pretty much everytime.

arex 05-06-16 08:43 AM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18744492)
I really need to get to the bottom bracket because if it's shot then I'll need to step away for awhile.

Any reason to think it IS shot?

Slash5 05-06-16 08:51 AM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18743842)
Thanks. I may disassemble & try that.

Right now I've bent both cotters and despite having the non drive side off and lock right and adjustable cup removed I'm afraid to go further with the bent cotter on the drive side. I let penetrating oil work overnight, whacked it with a rubber mallet to help crack up the gunk holding things stuck. I'll have to research how to get that cotter out without having to drill. I have replacement cotters from Mark Stonich, but won't be threaded for the raleigh nuts.

Know anyone with a air hammer/chisel? You can buy one from Harbor Freight for $10. You would likely have to grind one of the punches smaller but I would bet it would remove a cotter in a few seconds. Never done it myself but I am gaining a lot of respect for impact wrenches.

bmthom.gis 05-06-16 09:00 AM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18744492)
I assumed I'm supposed to drill from the threaded side then decided to start drilling from the other side. What a mess. I keep whacking on it every once in awhile. On the bright side the nds adjustable cup is good. The front wheel spoke nipples are rounded off so that might be interesting. I really need to get to the bottom bracket because if it's shot then I'll need to step away for awhile.

No problems with the nipples...just buy a Nipple Driver. Park Tool ND-1. They end up being fun to use. Of course, for getting the old ones out a normal screw driver works fine, too. Probably better, because you can torque on it.

Velocivixen 05-06-16 09:04 AM

@clubman - I have an official Park Tool Cotter press and, despite being careful to line things up, both cotters bent. The first one came out though. I tried to be very careful about alignment but these threaded ends seemed soft to me.
@arex - the non drive side adjustable cup came out beautifully to reveal bone dry cups with dull brown bearings and tiny bit of rust from the bottom bracket shell. It sounded dry and it was.

As as an aside, my hands and forearms are very sore this morning.

arex 05-06-16 09:15 AM

I have spare cups if you need them.

3speedslow 05-06-16 09:23 AM

Those Cotters are intended to be soft and maluable, good and bad. I spent considerable time making sure the bolt was positioned just right on the threads so the force was on the shaft and not on the bolt.

i think it is time to invest in a cotter tool though for myself.

Sorry to read about the soreness!

I have empathy. Last few days have been off the bike while I give a pulled muscle in my lower back time to calm down. Had a fight with a seatpost and stem. You grab hold and push back and forth while pulling up with your arms. Seat not bad but that stem was crazy tight. Would move but barely. By the time I finally pulled up and out with it I could not stand up right:(

Too much for an old back. But such a thrill in the fight!

You are closer now to finishing, keep at it.

Brown Bearings, time to replace with new ones.

clubman 05-06-16 09:24 AM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18745700)
@clubman - I have an official Park Tool Cotter press and, despite being careful to line things up, both cotters bent. The first one came out though. I tried to be very careful about alignment but these threaded ends seemed soft to me.
@arex - the non drive side adjustable cup came out beautifully to reveal bone dry cups with dull brown bearings and tiny bit of rust from the bottom bracket shell. It sounded dry and it was.

As as an aside, my hands and forearms are very sore this morning.

Yeah many people recommend that cotters should be soft. I prefer the older, hard steel ones and have saved up a small stash of them, different lengths and bevels. They're fussier to install and sometimes need filing but they definitely come out easier. They tend to pop out with good technique.

Get the tiger balm out and keep at it.

3speedslow 05-06-16 11:03 AM

Reminds me, I need to check out my LBS and their forgotten drawer of cotters. They still got loads and different sizes to boot.

BigChief 05-06-16 11:11 AM

Had some time for the 64 today. Did a strip down and basic cleaning. No problem with the cotters thankfully. The Bike Smith press did fine, both reusable.
I'll have time for the BB and steering bearings today, but I'll have to get back to work for the next week. I'm pleased with this one, I think she'll clean up nicely.
Frame is nice and straight.
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/f...nnsech/64a.jpg

3speedslow 05-06-16 11:25 AM

Decals look to be in great shape too.

Really like the black Sports, so dignified looking. My black 73 reminds me of the one my Father rode.

noglider 05-06-16 01:23 PM

@Velocivixen, I've done this at least once. The last time was with my former Peugeot UO-8. The idea is to shred the cotter into oblivion. You remove material with the drill until it is punch-out-able. You might shred it to almost nothing by starting with a small bit and graduating to bigger bits. Eventually, the bit is almost as big as the cotter and there's not much left but a hollow cotter. That should punch out.

Cutting oil is probably best, as I believe it is designed for maximum heat dissipation. I didn't have any, so I used motor oil. Just stop when things get too hot and resume after they cool down. If you use no oil or bad oil, you'll have to do this frequently. The better oil you use, the less often you will need to take a cooling break. Don't let your drill bit get red hot.

SirMike1983 05-06-16 03:38 PM

Light motor oil is OK for a straight drill-out, as long as you go slow and check the heat level.

Cutting oil is good, but really shines when you need to tap threads or do die work.

BigChief 05-06-16 04:04 PM

We always had a can of MR. COOL TOOL at the shop. Always thought it would be a good name for a punk band.

browngw 05-06-16 04:54 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Sir Wayes A. Tonne at the coffee shop last week. He is mostly sorted now and working well.

arex 05-06-16 05:19 PM


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 18746935)
Sir Wayes A. Tonne at the coffee shop last week. He is mostly sorted now and working well.

Nice photo.

DQRider 05-06-16 06:14 PM


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 18746935)
Sir Wayes A. Tonne at the coffee shop last week. He is mostly sorted now and working well.

Indeed, excellent composition. And that bike! Full chaincase, a headlight even older than mine, and are those really Raleigh panniers? You've kept it as original as possible, and it is utterly beautiful. Well done! :thumb:

gster 05-06-16 07:12 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 18746084)
Had some time for the 64 today. Did a strip down and basic cleaning. No problem with the cotters thankfully. The Bike Smith press did fine, both reusable.
I'll have time for the BB and steering bearings today, but I'll have to get back to work for the next week. I'm pleased with this one, I think she'll clean up nicely.
Frame is nice and straight.
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/f...nnsech/64a.jpg

I like a black bike.

DQRider 05-06-16 07:15 PM

Can't wait to see it!

browngw 05-06-16 07:59 PM


Originally Posted by DQRider (Post 18747110)
Indeed, excellent composition. And that bike! Full chaincase, a headlight even older than mine, and are those really Raleigh panniers? You've kept it as original as possible, and it is utterly beautiful. Well done! :thumb:

I imagined the composition but only had my Sony smartphone with me. The Raleigh panniers, saddlebags actually were purchased in the early 90s at Canadian Tire. Raleigh's were popular in Canada and there was lots of stuff about. I had two but sadly sold one a while ago.
I will return to the Urban with a real camera next time. The light is much older than the bike and will be refitted with an LED when I find time. @arex thanks!

BigChief 05-06-16 08:10 PM


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 18747349)
I imagined the composition but only had my Sony smartphone with me. The Raleigh panniers, saddlebags actually were purchased in the early 90s at Canadian Tire. Raleigh's were popular in Canada and there was lots of stuff about. I had two but sadly sold one a while ago.
I will return to the Urban with a real camera next time. The light is much older than the bike and will be refitted with an LED when I find time. @arex thanks!

Your DL-1 is gorgeous! Good job.
Please post details of the LED conversion when you do it. I'd like to make one for my Roadster. Great idea.


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