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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

noglider 05-13-16 11:52 AM

@Velocivixen, to troubleshoot your shifting problem, simulate the clutch spring by disconnecting the indicator chain, and pull on that end of the cable with your left hand. Shift with your right hand, maintaining tension with your left hand. If it is still sluggish, the problem is in the cable or the shifter. Move your left hand to the next place along the cable to create tension. Do this repeatedly until your hand is on the inner wire just outside the shifter.

Velocivixen 05-13-16 12:32 PM

@Narhay - OK, here are the photos I promised and some thoughts about the dropout alignment tools.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7629/...32a0cb8b_c.jpgUntitled by velocivixen, on Flickr
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7034/...c53de729_c.jpgUntitled by velocivixen, on Flickr

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7504/...6559b169_c.jpgUntitled by velocivixen, on Flickr

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7332/...fa60889f_c.jpgUntitled by velocivixen, on Flickr

The last photo is the rear of my Raleigh Twenty which requires an axle that has 2 flats on it along with an antirotational washer. The tool DOES fit and work in these slots.

The fork has keyed slots for a ROUND axle and the tool does fit, however even with both halves of the tool completely retracted they overlap (the fork is 90mm spacing), so you can use the tool as far as fit, but you'd have to be creative with lining the ends of the tool parallel to each other. Anyway the tool fits both types of dropouts.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you'd like any other info or photos for clarification.

@Salubrious & @noglider - new cable, old housing with Tri-flo. I did what you suggested @noglider and the cable moves wonderfully. I'm not gonna fret about it. What it means is that I have to actively push the flick shifter lever into 3rd to get it to go all the way into 3rd.

w1gfh 05-13-16 12:59 PM

1 Attachment(s)
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=521439
Yep, if this is your shift lever, it looks funked up with rust.

Velocivixen 05-13-16 01:11 PM


Originally Posted by w1gfh (Post 18765124)
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=521439
Yep, if this is your shift lever, it looks funked up with rust.

Not that bike. I'm talking about a different Twenty. I have 3 Raleigh Twenty's and am working on different ones. The one I'm talking about is in pristine condition, and everything has been ultrasonically cleaned, lubed, new cable, etc.

It's all in my original post. No worries. It is what it is. 3Rd requires nudging. It works.

gster 05-13-16 01:25 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18764579)
@gster- so you bought it? What year do you think it might be from? It's very interesting looking and I will be interested to see what you'll do with it.

NO! NO MORE BIKES!....Unless it's free or:
Really old
A Rudge
A BSA
A Philips
...At least that's what I'm telling myself today.

agmetal 05-13-16 01:43 PM

Just had a BEAUTIFUL 1965 Sports in the shop earlier today, the thing was in near-pristine condition, with a brand new B-72 that just got installed on it recently. Didn't get any pictures, but it'll be back in for a proper tuneup next week, so I'll get some then.

slowtostart 05-13-16 02:53 PM

Has anyone used an aftermarket "Speedy Switch"? It looks very much like Sturmey-Archer shifters. Our LBS found one in a parts bin.

Thanks to Neal, my husband has a new shifter. On closer examination, the old cable seems to have a DIY crimp on the end which doesn't want to settle into its place in the shifter. Some time ago there was a discussion about replacement shifter cables. I plan to call Harris Cyclery tomorrow, but would appreciate any advice you may offer.

So many beautiful bikes here!

Salubrious 05-13-16 04:13 PM

I gotta 'Speedy Switch', I'm pretty sure. Its available to anyone that needs one, for the price of post.

BigChief 05-13-16 04:21 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by slowtostart (Post 18765414)
Has anyone used an aftermarket "Speedy Switch"? It looks very much like Sturmey-Archer shifters. Our LBS found one in a parts bin.

Thanks to Neal, my husband has a new shifter. On closer examination, the old cable seems to have a DIY crimp on the end which doesn't want to settle into its place in the shifter. Some time ago there was a discussion about replacement shifter cables. I plan to call Harris Cyclery tomorrow, but would appreciate any advice you may offer.

So many beautiful bikes here!

I have seen those cables with crimped on ends that are too large for SA trigger shifters. Aftermarket supplier? Sturmey archer did sell crimped cables, but at least they were small enough to work. The best cables are these...A small end, silver brazed on and plain on the other end. Sometimes you can find just the cables if you already have a casing you can use. Or they come complete with the casinf and a pinch bolt adapter that screws on to the indicator chain.
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=521493

gster 05-13-16 04:54 PM


Originally Posted by slowtostart (Post 18765414)
Has anyone used an aftermarket "Speedy Switch"? It looks very much like Sturmey-Archer shifters. Our LBS found one in a parts bin.

Thanks to Neal, my husband has a new shifter. On closer examination, the old cable seems to have a DIY crimp on the end which doesn't want to settle into its place in the shifter. Some time ago there was a discussion about replacement shifter cables. I plan to call Harris Cyclery tomorrow, but would appreciate any advice you may offer.

So many beautiful bikes here!

Most bike shops carry new 3 speed cables, $8.00-$10.00

BigChief 05-13-16 06:42 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18765157)
Not that bike. I'm talking about a different Twenty. I have 3 Raleigh Twenty's and am working on different ones. The one I'm talking about is in pristine condition, and everything has been ultrasonically cleaned, lubed, new cable, etc.

It's all in my original post. No worries. It is what it is. 3Rd requires nudging. It works.

I'm surprised that a fresh clutch spring didn't solve the problem. The fact that the new spring prevented shifting into low has me totally stumped. But, I can't help but feel the long cable casing all the way to the clip on the stay is part of the problem. I have an S5 Sprite that used pretty much the same system, but the shifter was mounted on the top tube so the cable casing was even a bit shorter than your 20.
I hated the shifting. It was definitely a push/pull affair, so I modified it to the bare cable/pulley/trigger system and now it shifts perfectly. Fortunately, I could use standard parts. I'm thinking that while the long casing system might work for some hubs, it might not for others. Back when they first designed the shifting system, they went out of their way to cut friction by using a pulley instead of the usual cable guide. They must have been having some issues with shifting or they wouldn't have gone through all that trouble. Just a thought.

SirMike1983 05-13-16 08:16 PM

Sturmey Archer shifters are a topic unto themselves. There's a lot of history there. Generally, the 1940s-50s "upside down" type shifters are the highest quality. They start to decline in quality in the 1960s.

Early style handlebar "click" shifter from a late 1940s Raleigh Dawn Tourist I'm rebuilding.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jF9vyzkN2...513_213624.jpg

Narhay 05-13-16 09:03 PM

Thanks @Velocivixen I think your dropouts are different than the full size bikes. I'll have to maybe test it out at the coop.

Velocivixen 05-13-16 10:00 PM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 18766199)
Sturmey Archer shifters are a topic unto themselves. There's a lot of history there. Generally, the 1940s-50s "upside down" type shifters are the highest quality. They start to decline in quality in the 1960s.

Early style handlebar "click" shifter from a late 1940s Raleigh Dawn Tourist I'm rebuilding.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jF9vyzkN2...513_213624.jpg

Wow, that is gorgeous. Really sort a work of art. Thanks for sharing that. Let's see some of the bike as you move along.

BigChief 05-14-16 04:26 AM

Probably because I spent 30 years as a tool and die maker I appreciate the craftsmanship that went into these shifters. I like the embossed design on yours even better than these shifters from the 50s. Unfortunately, by the 60s they stopped using the embossed faceplates and simply silk screened the logo onto a plain plate and did away with the classy 2 piece pulley clip.
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/f...s_shifters.jpg

w1gfh 05-14-16 06:53 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 18766650)
Probably because I spent 30 years as a tool and die maker I appreciate the craftsmanship that went into these shifters. I like the embossed design on yours even better than these shifters from the 50s. Unfortunately, by the 60s they stopped using the embossed faceplates and simply silk screened the logo onto a plain plate and did away with the classy 2 piece pulley clip.

Love the older shifters. The ones that were made to be mounted on handlebars facing up have their own distinctive method of operation using the index finger to "pull" down from gear 3-2-1 and "flick" up from 1-2-3.

I got a steel pulley repro from Gentleman Cyclist to replace the plastic one, which tended to get melty in warm weather.

Loose Chain 05-14-16 09:20 AM

Are there any replacement bottom bracket sets for these bikes that can use the original cottered cranks? I do not need one, just asking?

Headsets?

How loose/tight do y'all set these BB up? I have a tiny amount of wiggle in both, set too tight until I tighten the locking ring and then that makes a little wiggle?

I now have five E3Ss! One for me, one for my wife, one for my nieces, one each for the twins and one for their mommy. Now I need one more for their dad! And a few extra ;).

slowtostart 05-14-16 10:16 AM


Originally Posted by w1gfh (Post 18766799)
Love the older shifters. The ones that were made to be mounted on handlebars facing up have their own distinctive method of operation using the index finger to "pull" down from gear 3-2-1 and "flick" up from 1-2-3.

I got a steel pulley repro from Gentleman Cyclist to replace the plastic one, which tended to get melty in warm weather.

Thanks for the info. I need a pulley and fulcrum sleeve. Both are plastic on the '71 Dunelt. The fulcrum sleeve is disintegrating.

As for my shifter cable conundrum, I purchased "Sunlite Three-Speed Cables" with a 60" housing X 65" inner wire. The package includes "Adjusting hardware". "Fits Sturmey Archer". Nothing ventured, nothing learned. I'll be very happy if it functions. This was a very LBS experience. They were quite sure I should replace the shifter as well. I've paid less for Craigslist bicycles and happy to explore that solution.

I have a shifter archive dating from 1956 to 1974. Anyone know why "Sturmey Archer" appears upside down on the shifters? Fits the shape of the face plate?

Is it blasphemy to replace a more modern shifter with a better quality one of an earlier vintage?

I am ever thankful for the guidance you continue to offer. Time to plant tomatoes.

STS

w1gfh 05-14-16 10:27 AM


Originally Posted by slowtostart (Post 18767085)
Anyone know why "Sturmey Archer" appears upside down on the shifters? Fits the shape of the face plate?

Those are the ones that are meant to be mounted facing down and operated with the thumb.

These are the ones that are meant to be mounted facing up and operated with the index finger.
http://www.sturmey-archerheritage.co...os/pic-647.jpg


Is it blasphemy to replace a more modern shifter with a better quality one of an earlier vintage?
Nope. I installed the early 1960s one on the far left (photo above) on a 1970 bike because I prefer its looks!

michaelz28 05-14-16 10:39 AM


Originally Posted by w1gfh (Post 18767107)
Those are the ones that are meant to be mounted facing down and operated with the thumb.

These are the ones that are meant to be mounted facing up and operated with the index finger.
http://www.sturmey-archerheritage.co...os/pic-647.jpg



Nope. I installed the early 1960s one on the far left (photo above) on a 1970 bike because I prefer its looks!

my 74 has the one on the left .

w1gfh 05-14-16 10:49 AM

Not sure of the chronology, but Raleighs after 68 or so went to this "metal body with plastic faceplate" trigger:
https://urbanadventureleague.files.w...ggerdetail.jpg

Then, when the plastic eventually cracked and fell off, you were left with this:
http://memberfiles.freewebs.com/63/7...%20Shifter.jpg

michaelz28 05-14-16 11:47 AM


Originally Posted by w1gfh (Post 18767144)
Not sure of the chronology, but Raleighs after 68 or so went to this "metal body with plastic faceplate" trigger:
https://urbanadventureleague.files.w...ggerdetail.jpg

Then, when the plastic eventually cracked and fell off, you were left with this:
http://memberfiles.freewebs.com/63/7...%20Shifter.jpg

sorry actually thats the one ... but it is uncracked http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/h...psbecxbycf.jpg

San Rensho 05-14-16 12:32 PM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 18749514)
And oil ports really are a good thing if you use them right. Oil frequently, and DON'T FORGET! I did my three-month European trip oiling my hubs frequently. After my trip, I disassembled the bearings, and man, were they clean. The trouble is, if you forget, you're in trouble, so we use grease, because that tolerates less regular maintenance.

And even jf the bike doesnt have an oil port you can squirt oil down the seat post to lubricate the bb. Just pour oil in untill it starts to run out of the bb at the spindle.

noglider 05-14-16 01:49 PM


Originally Posted by San Rensho (Post 18767348)
And even jf the bike doesnt have an oil port you can squirt oil down the seat post to lubricate the bb. Just pour oil in untill it starts to run out of the bb at the spindle.

You know, you just gave me an idea. Until further notice, I'm going to oil my bikes' bearings. I have too many bikes to regrease on an adequate schedule. I'll pour a lot of oil in all of them. If I get around to greasing, fine, but if I don't, I think I can be more reliable with oiling than with greasing.

Velocivixen 05-14-16 02:13 PM

I hope all you bearing "oilers" keep your bikes somewhere where you don't mind getting oil on the floor.

San Rensho 05-14-16 03:10 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18767552)
I hope all you bearing "oilers" keep your bikes somewhere where you don't mind getting oil on the floor.

Please, English three speeds are like English cars and English motorcycles back in the day, they leak oil like a sieve. In fact, if they didn't leak oil, that was a good indicator that there was something going wrong, that you ran out of oil.

noglider 05-14-16 03:14 PM

@slowtostart, I've used the Speedy Switches. They work, but for less time before they need replacement. If you get one, don't pay too much for it. I think I even have a spare, but someone else offered one to you already.

Velocivixen 05-14-16 05:25 PM

@San Renshou - I don't mind oil, but my bikes are in the garage with concrete floors.

dweenk 05-14-16 05:39 PM


Originally Posted by San Rensho (Post 18767645)
Please, English three speeds are like English cars and English motorcycles back in the day, they leak oil like a sieve. In fact, if they didn't leak oil, that was a good indicator that there was something going wrong, that you ran out of oil.

My late father-in-law drove a Triumph Spitfire from Campbell, CA to SLAC every day in the 1970's. He always kept a shop rag in the driver side floor to drape over his shoe so brake fluid would't drip on it.

Loose Chain 05-14-16 06:20 PM

For posterity, I agree the 17/18 tooth cogs are too steep for most uses but the 22, lol, it is a little on the low side. I would recommend a 20 for anyone who is still a strong cyclist as I can wind out now in my driveway and sparrows are passing me. But, 22 it is for now, it will be okay (maybe). Both bikes are rolling fine now, had a gravel road shakedown ride. We live on a gravel road. Kansas is kind of backwards in that unless the area pays "specials" there is no sewage or paved roads and since the special taxes are rather high, well, we all have gravel roads. Imagine, some people have to go look for gravel, I have to look for pavement!

Yeah, 22 is too low, my opinion.

For the cracked plastic shifter covers, I used a Dremal to remove the cracked area in a smooth radius and then adhered it with crystal clear silicone. It can still be removed, in another three decades or so.


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