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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

BigChief 04-18-18 05:45 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20291515)
Looks like tomorrow I will collect the black '63 Rudge Sports I bought a week or so ago. I paid probably 20% more than I felt comfortable and am just hoping there's not any big problem with it, like damage to the frame or rims so rusted they're not even rideable. (The photos weren't great quality.) Although if that happened I'd probably have some recourse through eBay.

Pre 65 3 speeds are getting more rare all the time. Even more so if you want something as cool as a Rudge. Luckily, most sellers don't value these bikes the same way we enthusiasts do. Bargains can still be had but you could scan Craigslist for a long, long time before you found a bargain priced 63 Rudge.

Ballenxj 04-18-18 06:23 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20292853)
Pre 65 3 speeds are getting more rare all the time. Even more so if you want something as cool as a Rudge. Luckily, most sellers don't value these bikes the same way we enthusiasts do. Bargains can still be had but you could scan Craigslist for a long, long time before you found a bargain priced 63 Rudge.

I'm sure knowing what to look for, as well as having a trained eye can't hurt either. ;)

curbtender 04-18-18 07:58 PM

Haven't heard of a 'Scandia' https://sfbay.craigslist.org/scz/bik...543692836.html

johnnyspaghetti 04-19-18 01:41 AM


Originally Posted by curbtender (Post 20293108)

The Raleigh is a 1973 or later & the west coast price tag is for democrats only.

oldveloman 04-19-18 03:33 AM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20286902)
The lists of serial numbers you'll find isn't very reliable. Many anomalies. We can find a reasonably close date with frame features, graphics and accessories. That information was gathered by catalog pictures and Sturmey Archer hub dates on known examples. So not perfect, but pretty close. I can see from the shape of the steering tube lug front that the frame is 1955 or later. I think I can see a bit of the joint from the steering tube lug and top tube enough to see a shape that is 1957 or later. The next frame feature in the timeline would be the shifter cable guide wheel. Is it brazed onto the top tube or clamped on the seat tube? All through the 50s, the wheel had a mount brazed on the top tube. Then around 1960-1961, they changed to using a clamp on steel wheel with a gray finish and 2 piece band. Somewhere around 63 they changed to a plastic wheel with a one piece band. Also around that time, they eliminated the oil port in the bottom bracket and the full chaincase mounting lug on the drive side chainstay. The fork is a bit less conclusive. Safe to say that if it has the bullet shaped ends where the dropouts are brazed in, it would be 1964 or later.

Thanks BigChief, that' s a lot of help !

As I said before, this Triumph Sports was a single speed bike when bought 25 years ago and I fitted a '77 3-speed wheel a few years later. So no clue there.
It has alloy Weinmann Type 810 brakes.
The oil port ( with plastic cup ) in the bottom bracket and the full chaincase mounting lug are there, as can be seen from the pictures below.
It has wire mudguard stays front and rear bolted into brazed-on lugs.

Would be nice to find a list of serial numbers too though, as XY8567 doesn' t fit in the Raleigh numbering system as far as I can see.
I have a mid-sixties ladies Triumph that has a normal Raleigh number ( 1915219 ) for that era and I had others that fitted in too...

Peter

BigChief 04-19-18 04:49 AM

Since it was originally a single speed, we don't have a guide wheel to narrow things down, so we're at 1957-1963. But I'm guessing late 50s. The brake levers are contemporary with the 1977 hub. The VCC has a few Triumph catalogs posted here.
Veteran-Cycle Club Online Library
Might find some more clues.

paulb_in_bkln 04-19-18 06:17 AM


Originally Posted by oldveloman (Post 20293416)
Thanks BigChief, that' s a lot of help !

As I said before, this Triumph Sports was a single speed bike when bought 25 years ago and I fitted a '77 3-speed wheel a few years later. So no clue there.
It has alloy Weinmann Type 810 brakes.
The oil port ( with plastic cup ) in the bottom bracket and the full chaincase mounting lug are there, as can be seen from the pictures below.
It has wire mudguard stays front and rear bolted into brazed-on lugs.

Would be nice to find a list of serial numbers too though, as XY8567 doesn' t fit in the Raleigh numbering system as far as I can see.
I have a mid-sixties ladies Triumph that has a normal Raleigh number ( 1915219 ) for that era and I had others that fitted in too...

Peter

Can you work that BB fixed cup out if you need to?

paulb_in_bkln 04-19-18 06:23 AM


Originally Posted by Ballenxj (Post 20292924)
I'm sure knowing what to look for, as well as having a trained eye can't hurt either. ;)

I have to get some perspective on this. It's not like I'm meeting my mail-order bride.

oldveloman 04-19-18 07:45 AM

2 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20293448)
The brake levers are contemporary with the 1977 hub.

Hah ! Thanks again, BC.
I wasn' t sure if I replaced the handlebars, or the grips, or the levers years ago - or not.
There' s two different alloy Weinmann levers fitted BTW.
I know that other grips were fitted when I bought it, so I searched my garage, but nothing to find. Probably fitted to another bike that has long gone since...
Now, back in 1997, this and some other bicycles were used as “models" in one of my paintings, so I had a look to see what was fitted back then.
Below is a picture of that painting and a detail of the Triumph.
It shows the original grips and the lever that is still on it today. The handlebar at right with black grips, has the same lever as the other one on the Triumph. I do not recall what levers were fitted when I bought the bike.
Does this grip narrows it down ?

The bicycle at left, was my wife's Flandria. the handlebars at right belonged to a triumph Bermuda... :)

Peter

oldveloman 04-19-18 07:53 AM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20293519)
Can you work that BB fixed cup out if you need to?

Haven' t tried that yet, but it' s a soft plastic thing, so I guess it will come out easily.

BigChief 04-19-18 08:42 AM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20293527)
I have to get some perspective on this. It's not like I'm meeting my mail-order bride.

I'm looking forward to seeing pictures. Please post some when you get a chance. An old Rudge is always interesting!

johnnyspaghetti 04-19-18 11:44 AM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by oldveloman (Post 20293416)
Thanks BigChief, that' s a lot of help !

As I said before, this Triumph Sports was a single speed bike when bought 25 years ago and I fitted a '77 3-speed wheel a few years later. So no clue there.
It has alloy Weinmann Type 810 brakes.
The oil port ( with plastic cup ) in the bottom bracket and the full chaincase mounting lug are there, as can be seen from the pictures below.
It has wire mudguard stays front and rear bolted into brazed-on lugs.

Would be nice to find a list of serial numbers too though, as XY8567 doesn' t fit in the Raleigh numbering system as far as I can see.
I have a mid-sixties ladies Triumph that has a normal Raleigh number ( 1915219 ) for that era and I had others that fitted in too...

Peter

This bike is around 1962. mabye 1961. The paint scheme is a 1961 American Raleigh but I don't know. The plastic oiler bb is post 1960. The barrel end front fork dropout seems to have discontiued in 1963 then turning to blade type. I have 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1985, Raliegh built bikes.
This is a 48 state 1961 sports I got for $75 It has plastic BB oiler port. My 2 1960s sports have metal spring cap BB port.

Attachment 608028

oldveloman 04-19-18 12:04 PM


Originally Posted by johnnyspaghetti (Post 20294298)
This bike is around 1962. mabye 1961. The paint scheme is a 1961 American Raleigh but I don't know. The plastic oiler bb is post 1960. The barrel end front fork dropout seems to have discontiued in 1963 then turning to blade type. I have 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1985, Raliegh built bikes.
This is a 48 state 1961 sports I got for $75

Thanks, Johnny.
So this Triumph Sports must be 1961, 1962, or 1963.
We are getting closer :)

Seems like a bargain, that '61 Raleigh you got there !

Peter

paulb_in_bkln 04-19-18 04:15 PM


Originally Posted by oldveloman (Post 20293696)
back in 1997, this and some other bicycles were used as “models" in one of my paintings, so I had a look to see what was fitted back then.
Below is a picture of that painting and a detail of the Triumph. Peter

Marvelous paintings.

paulb_in_bkln 04-19-18 05:29 PM

8 Attachment(s)
This bike is fine. So much for repainting—that’s over. It lacks the hand chainring, but has the old style brake cables and an oil port in the BB. Plus the head tube badge and frame decals, wow. The hub says ’63. Rims? Eh, that’s not superficial rust, I don’t think. Other chrome is darn good. The indicator chain was broken, you’ll see that in the snaps, so I put in a new one and it shifts nicely. Need to pull the left side crank out; it nudges the left chainstay. The B72, well, with plenty of foam crammed underneath, it might give me a little time.

I am puzzled about one thing. Height at the top of the seat tube is the same as on my Raleigh Sports step-thru (21 inches from BB to top). But at the front, there is a 2-inch difference in the length of the head tubes, which puts the Rudge MUCH lower at the front (I mean the top of the head tube) than the step thru Sports. I did not expect this.

agmetal 04-19-18 05:36 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20295011)

I am puzzled about one thing. Height at the top of the seat tube is the same as on my Raleigh Sports step-thru (21 inches from BB to top). But at the front, there is a 2-inch difference in the length of the head tubes, which puts the Rudge MUCH lower at the front (I mean the top of the head tube) than the step thru Sports. I did not expect this.

The same is true of my 1952 diamond frame and 1966 step-through. I hadn't really noticed it until putting the two next to each other recently (neither bike sees much use), but it's quite noticeable with them side-by-side!

paulb_in_bkln 04-19-18 05:45 PM


Originally Posted by agmetal (Post 20295023)
The same is true of my 1952 diamond frame and 1966 step-through. I hadn't really noticed it until putting the two next to each other recently (neither bike sees much use), but it's quite noticeable with them side-by-side!

Yes, two inches. Quite a lot.

clubman 04-19-18 06:42 PM

I think the women's frames taller headtube gives the top/downtube(s) enough separation to maintain adequate structural integrity.

paulb_in_bkln 04-19-18 06:59 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20295126)
I think the women's frames taller headtube gives the top/downtube(s) enough separation to maintain adequate structural integrity.

That makes sense, but I will be looking at a new tall stem, or one of those extender tubes (not out of the question).

paulb_in_bkln 04-19-18 07:02 PM

1 Attachment(s)
One more photo.

BigChief 04-19-18 07:02 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20295011)
This bike is fine. So much for repainting—that’s over. It lacks the hand chainring, but has the old style brake cables and an oil port in the BB. Plus the head tube badge and frame decals, wow. The hub says ’63. Rims? Eh, that’s not superficial rust, I don’t think. Other chrome is darn good. The indicator chain was broken, you’ll see that in the snaps, so I put in a new one and it shifts nicely. Need to pull the left side crank out; it nudges the left chainstay. The B72, well, with plenty of foam crammed underneath, it might give me a little time.

I am puzzled about one thing. Height at the top of the seat tube is the same as on my Raleigh Sports step-thru (21 inches from BB to top). But at the front, there is a 2-inch difference in the length of the head tubes, which puts the Rudge MUCH lower at the front (I mean the top of the head tube) than the step thru Sports. I did not expect this.

Nice! You got a good one. I suspect the left side crank is bent. Easy fix. The paint, transfers and chrome look really good. I love bikes like this. Needs some work, but has tons of potential. For me, it's fun to pick away at the things that need fixing. Looks like somebody changed the shifter at some point. For 1963, it should have one of 2 different styles. The older style had a embossed, upside down faceplate and a threaded ferrule like this:
Attachment 608091
Or, a later style right side up faceplate with no embossing, just printed on graphics and a ball and keyhole style ferrule. The change happened around 62-63.
I really like this bike. Always been especially fond of Rudges.

paulb_in_bkln 04-19-18 07:20 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20295156)
Nice! You got a good one. I suspect the left side crank is bent. Easy fix. The paint, transfers and chrome look really good. I love bikes like this. Needs some work, but has tons of potential. For me, it's fun to pick away at the things that need fixing. Looks like somebody changed the shifter at some point.

I'll straighten the crank, no problem. God knows how many times they needed pulling out on my bike when I was a kid. I was wondering about that shifter.... The grips don't match, so, no surprise. But the paint! It is so good! Now I've got it, how do I deal with those old-style brake wires if they need replacing? Just screw something to the end of the new wire to anchor it in the caliper?

johnnyspaghetti 04-19-18 07:24 PM

Is this a SA product?

https://images.craigslist.org/00T0T_...Cz_600x450.jpg

https://lacrosse.craigslist.org/bik/...544884273.html

johnnyspaghetti 04-19-18 07:47 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20295011)
This bike is fine. So much for repainting—that’s over. It lacks the hand chainring, but has the old style brake cables and an oil port in the BB. Plus the head tube badge and frame decals, wow. The hub says ’63. Rims? Eh, that’s not superficial rust, I don’t think. Other chrome is darn good. The indicator chain was broken, you’ll see that in the snaps, so I put in a new one and it shifts nicely. Need to pull the left side crank out; it nudges the left chainstay. The B72, well, with plenty of foam crammed underneath, it might give me a little time.

I am puzzled about one thing. Height at the top of the seat tube is the same as on my Raleigh Sports step-thru (21 inches from BB to top). But at the front, there is a 2-inch difference in the length of the head tubes, which puts the Rudge MUCH lower at the front (I mean the top of the head tube) than the step thru Sports. I did not expect this.

Way nice

desconhecido 04-19-18 09:49 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20295152)
That makes sense, but I will be looking at a new tall stem, or one of those extender tubes (not out of the question).

There were extra long stems, but I think they were rare. Problem with replacing with a repro is bar diameter. The old steel bars were small diameter -- about 23mm, as I recall.

Niagara does sell long stems that are style appropriate and "north" style bars, both in 25.4, and they're not expensive.

Too bad if you replace as the ones on the Rudge look to be in good shape.

BigChief 04-19-18 09:50 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20295196)
I'll straighten the crank, no problem. God knows how many times they needed pulling out on my bike when I was a kid. I was wondering about that shifter.... The grips don't match, so, no surprise. But the paint! It is so good! Now I've got it, how do I deal with those old-style brake wires if they need replacing? Just screw something to the end of the new wire to anchor it in the caliper?

I hope you don't need to change them. I never do unless they're frayed. I have seen people use cable knarps, but the cleanest method is to silver braze a piece of steel that fits the caliper onto a new cable end. Another method to swap out the calipers for later Raleigh calipers that use a pinch bolt.

oldveloman 04-20-18 02:59 AM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20294861)
Marvelous paintings.

Thanks Paul !

paulb_in_bkln 04-20-18 04:12 AM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20295395)
There were extra long stems, but I think they were rare. Problem with replacing with a repro is bar diameter. The old steel bars were small diameter -- about 23mm, as I recall.

Niagara does sell long stems that are style appropriate and "north" style bars, both in 25.4, and they're not expensive.

Too bad if you replace as the ones on the Rudge look to be in good shape.

A 23-inch frame would have been best for me. But, there are those longer steel stems--I put one on that Space Rider I overhauled for a friend five years ago. And it looks as if Sunlite still produces their quill extender. So practically speaking it's not a problem. (Although the extender doesn't give the greatest look.) I have a Technomic tall alloy stem on another bike, which doesn't really need it, and a shim would let it hold the Raleigh bars.

paulb_in_bkln 04-20-18 04:16 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20295398)
I hope you don't need to change them. I never do unless they're frayed. I have seen people use cable knarps, but the cleanest method is to silver braze a piece of steel that fits the caliper onto a new cable end. Another method to swap out the calipers for later Raleigh calipers that use a pinch bolt.

It's reassuring to know that solutions are available even if there isn't a problem. I've got to look up "knarp." Where the heck does that word come from? Biggest concern right now is those rims.

gster 04-20-18 05:02 AM

3 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20295011)
This bike is fine. So much for repainting—that’s over. It lacks the hand chainring, but has the old style brake cables and an oil port in the BB. Plus the head tube badge and frame decals, wow. The hub says ’63. Rims? Eh, that’s not superficial rust, I don’t think. Other chrome is darn good. The indicator chain was broken, you’ll see that in the snaps, so I put in a new one and it shifts nicely. Need to pull the left side crank out; it nudges the left chainstay. The B72, well, with plenty of foam crammed underneath, it might give me a little time.

I am puzzled about one thing. Height at the top of the seat tube is the same as on my Raleigh Sports step-thru (21 inches from BB to top). But at the front, there is a 2-inch difference in the length of the head tubes, which puts the Rudge MUCH lower at the front (I mean the top of the head tube) than the step thru Sports. I did not expect this.

Nice purchase.
Re Brakes
Those cables (NOS) are pretty hard to find these days and
expensive.
I generally replace the calipers with second generation ones that accept a regular cable.
BC's advice to build custom cables is another option.
Attachment 608154

Paint and decals all look good.
You can try cleaning the rims with tin foil and water
but I suspect some of that rust will remain.
Keep your eye out for discarded rims outside bike shops etc.
These projects can be a "Slow Burn".
I found a rounded crank arm last week and installed on a project I
had "finished" 2 years ago.
Keep the photos coming and try to document your progress.
Attachment 608152
Amongst the parts included with this basket case was a rounded crank that made it's way over to this bike.
Attachment 608153


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