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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

Kilroy1988 05-13-18 08:23 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20337558)
Wow, another 23" Dawn Tourist. This one looks a little later than the other, but still early 50s. Replaced front wheel and , of course, grips. I like it!
edit: If the seller thinks it's from 1960, perhaps he's going by an AW hub date which would mean that the rear wheel is replaced also. The rim looks trashed anyway. So, might be missing both wheels, but still a great deal at $75.

Why would you say it's early-'50s rather than c. 1960? They looked virtually identical up until that time. There are also a number of models with rod brakes and full chain cases other than the Dawn Tourist shown in the catalogs of the period. How do you tell the difference between them without close inspection?

Here's a '59, for example:

http://www.oldbike.eu/museum/1940s/1...-dawn-tourist/

BigChief 05-13-18 10:32 AM

My research is based on known hub dates and catalog pictures, so dating is imprecise. But, I do know the general chronology of changes over the years. The Dawn models are based on the light roadster frame. The Tourist has the full chaincase. Both Dawns used rod brakes. Around 1955, Raleigh changed the lug shapes on the light roadster frame. Pre 55 look like this: The top tube joint at the seat tube was unshaped.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...982b507fd0.jpg
The next style only lasted a couple of years. This shape was at both ends of the top tube
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b7a83cf1da.jpg
Here's the front

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...62d3246f65.jpg
That bike has the top tube mounted guide wheel, so that eliminates it being pre 1950 on the early side and the lug shapes eliminate it being post 1954 on the late side.

Kilroy1988 05-13-18 01:58 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20337788)
That bike has the top tube mounted guide wheel, so that eliminates it being pre 1950 on the early side and the lug shapes eliminate it being post 1954 on the late side.

Okay. When I click the link I only see one vague photo of the non-drive side that I can't zoom in on. Where are you looking to see the details?

arty dave 05-13-18 05:52 PM

Here's the parts stash for the Speedwell roadster plus the new 30's Speedwell racer. The Sturmey front drum is a '49 model.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/960/4...0ecd07c0_b.jpg
IMG20180513153418 by arty dave armour, on Flickr
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/943/4...e6223648_b.jpg
IMG20180513152626 by arty dave armour, on Flickr
I added the saddle as the one that came with it was super narrow. I haven't ridden it yet - it has no brakes or gears. It's my size but I can't do drop bars anymore - I did 'scorcherise' the Speedwell roadster on the weekend with some flipped north road bars and that much drop seems OK, so maybe I'll try it on this red bike. I'm also thinking I might use a Sturmey S5 hub in the red bike.

gster 05-13-18 06:10 PM


Originally Posted by arty dave (Post 20338385)
Here's the parts stash for the Speedwell roadster plus the new Speedwell racer. The Sturmey front drum is a '49 model.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/960/4...0ecd07c0_b.jpg
IMG20180513153418 by arty dave armour, on Flickr
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/943/4...e6223648_b.jpg
IMG20180513152626 by arty dave armour, on Flickr
I added the saddle as the one that came with it was super narrow. I haven't ridden it yet - it has no brakes or gears. It's my size but I can't do drop bars anymore - I did 'scorcherise' the Speedwell roadster on the weekend with some flipped north road bars and that much drop seems OK, so maybe I'll try it on this red bike. I'm also thinking I might use a Sturmey S5 hub in the red bike.

Sounds like a plan.
I can't really do the drop bars anymore either..
Glad to see we're all starting to rat rod these things a bit.
Better to re-purpose them to your preference than pitch.

BigChief 05-13-18 09:37 PM


Originally Posted by Kilroy1988 (Post 20338059)
Okay. When I click the link I only see one vague photo of the non-drive side that I can't zoom in on. Where are you looking to see the details?

Mostly, I can make out the straight edge on the top tube to seat tube lug joint. By 1955 this was changed to that tombstone shape above and by 1958 it changed again to this shape.But, with Raleigh, you can never be certain. I just enjoy playing detective on my coffee breaks.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e786052bf1.jpg

paulb_in_bkln 05-14-18 02:02 PM


Originally Posted by arty dave (Post 20338385)

💘 the handlebar grips. Those are keepers!

ddeand 05-15-18 04:02 PM

Problem on first ride!

I had a chance to take my newly completed 1963 Raleigh Sports project out today for its inaugural ride. It performed superbly in almost every way and was a ton of fun to ride, although I know that I need to swap in a longer shift cable. But when I finished the ride, I found that the upper headset was loose. Not the adjustment of the top nuts, but the actual press-in upper head race race. It was moving around in the head tube. When I installed the upper head race, there was very little friction or tightness, and I wondered if I might have a problem with it. So . . . I'm wondering if any of you have ever run into this problem and what did you do to fix it. Beyond chucking the whole thing and starting over with a different bike, is it feasible to "adjust" either the head tube or the head race? Would some sort of shim work to tighten things up? Do I have any options?

Any help is greatly appreciated!

paulb_in_bkln 05-15-18 04:08 PM


Originally Posted by ddeand (Post 20342142)
Problem on first ride!

I had a chance to take my newly completed 1963 Raleigh Sports project out today for its inaugural ride. It performed superbly in almost every way and was a ton of fun to ride, although I know that I need to swap in a longer shift cable. But when I finished the ride, I found that the upper headset was loose. Not the adjustment of the top nuts, but the actual press-in upper head race race. It was moving around in the head tube. When I installed the upper head race, there was very little friction or tightness, and I wondered if I might have a problem with it. So . . . I'm wondering if any of you have ever run into this problem and what did you do to fix it. Beyond chucking the whole thing and starting over with a different bike, is it feasible to "adjust" either the head tube or the head race? Would some sort of shim work to tighten things up? Do I have any options?

Any help is greatly appreciated!

I wonder is it really something that would cause a problem? Maybe adjust the headset a smidgen tighter than you might otherwise and leave it at that.
PS I seem to remember someone posting with a similar issue a few weeks ago.

Salubrious 05-15-18 04:10 PM


Originally Posted by ddeand (Post 20342142)
Problem on first ride!

. But when I finished the ride, I found that the upper headset was loose. Not the adjustment of the top nuts, but the actual press-in upper head race race. It was moving around in the head tube. When I installed the upper head race, there was very little friction or tightness, and I wondered if I might have a problem with it.

The headset cups are not particularly tight in the headtubes I've worked on. But if its that loose such that it rotates with the bearings, that sort of suggests that someone tried to swap out the original cup. At least to me. I'd see if I could find another example of the bike and see how the bearings look. As best I can recall, there is nothing particularly odd about the headtube size, so maybe a new headset?

ddeand 05-15-18 04:22 PM

Thanks for the quick responses. The head race is not moving when the steerer is turned - it just has movement when at rest. I'm hatching a plan, but like most of my plans, I'd better sit on it a couple days to think it through. Thanks again.

BigChief 05-15-18 04:55 PM

I don't think this is a critical flaw. Like you say, it doesn't move when steering. I would just clean it off and use some paint to glue it in place. That should be plenty strong enough to hold and you would still be able to drift the cup out of the frame if you needed to.

desconhecido 05-15-18 06:33 PM


Originally Posted by ddeand (Post 20342142)
Problem on first ride!

I had a chance to take my newly completed 1963 Raleigh Sports project out today for its inaugural ride. It performed superbly in almost every way and was a ton of fun to ride, although I know that I need to swap in a longer shift cable. But when I finished the ride, I found that the upper headset was loose. Not the adjustment of the top nuts, but the actual press-in upper head race race. It was moving around in the head tube. When I installed the upper head race, there was very little friction or tightness, and I wondered if I might have a problem with it. So . . . I'm wondering if any of you have ever run into this problem and what did you do to fix it. Beyond chucking the whole thing and starting over with a different bike, is it feasible to "adjust" either the head tube or the head race? Would some sort of shim work to tighten things up? Do I have any options?

Any help is greatly appreciated!

The joys of what I call "The Nottingham Headset." The main problem is that the steerer is threaded to 26 tpi which makes putting a replacement headset in there difficult.

I've been giving this thought recently and think that the way to solve this problem with a 21" Sports is to get the fork from a 23" sports, or a 21" ladies Sports, and cut threads at 24tpi down to the length of the 21" Sports fork and then cut the excess and fit a new Tange Levin headset with 27 mm crown race and 30.2 mm cups. The larger cups should solve the problem with the looseness you see.

I've got three Worksop made Super Course MK IIs from 74 and 75 and all three have Nottinham threaded and sized forks and headsets. I've already got replacement forks for two of them.

desconhecido 05-15-18 06:36 PM

I've seen a couple sloppy fitting headsets in Sports bikes and also 70s Super course bikes and Sprites and GPs. Loose crown races and not very accurately machined headtubes -- not very tight top cups.

Cute Boy Horse 05-15-18 06:46 PM

To be honest I'm not surprised, Raleigh's reputation for quality was a load of rubbish at least 1960s onwards. They might be "100 year bikes" but they get there with weird rattles and a lot of help from zip ties. And I say that as the marque enthusiast.

arty dave 05-15-18 07:58 PM

Yep, the crown race on my DL-1 was loose, so when I repainted the frame and forks I made sure to put some paint layers where the crown race would install. I was thinking some kind of shim or aluminium tape, but the paint layers made for a perfect fit.

ddeand 05-15-18 11:47 PM

Again, thanks for all the input, advice, and experience. I’m a bit surprised that this is a somewhat common occurance. Pretty interesting.

BigChief 05-16-18 04:56 AM

There's the same sort of situation with the lower race on the fork. People worry if it's loose, but it's not a serious issue. It's not a precise press fit. It's pretty much just held in place by the paint. You don't need a special puller to get them off if they need replacing. Just a few taps with a hammer and they come loose. Since the bearings don't put any sideways torque on them, it's not important that they be fit tightly to the fork. A little paint will hold them in place, but I don't think even that is necessary.

DQRider 05-16-18 07:42 AM

Lake Pepin 3-Speed Tour - Ride Report
 
Well, another Lake Pepin 3-Speed Tour is in the books. For me, it was the best one yet. Not so much because of the number and variety of the bikes present, although that was pretty impressive. But this year I was able to ride with many more different groups than in years past, and we had some fascinating conversations.

First there were Shawn Granton and Emee from Portland, center, and Steve on the far right. (Sorry, didn't get the name of the lovely lady on the left, who brought her authentic British accent with her.).

https://i.imgur.com/5RlmRSZ.png

Then at Reads Landing Brewery there was Steve again, next to long-time frame builder Jeff Bock, some guy who likes ice cream (and it shows... :rolleyes:), and Steven Brink - The Gentleman Cyclist's "Keeper of the Cask". Despite the inviting sign, the brewery was not open that Sunday morning.

https://i.imgur.com/k8yYhTu.png
Photo by "The Quicker Vicar"

A beautiful trio lounging against the wall at the Nelson Cheese Factory.

https://i.imgur.com/thJhKi3.png

A close-up of Jeff Bock's handbuilt "Lake Pepin Rider", which can be viewed in detail at "Cycle Exif"

https://i.imgur.com/t0rU8N7.png

Here's the view from the parking lot of The Eagle's Nest in Wabasha, MN early Sunday morning.

https://i.imgur.com/F7TrAUT.png

And finally, a couple of the bikes that were parked against Ye Olde Stone Wall in Old Frontenac, MN - where they hold the "Light-Up" for any pipe-smokers amongst us. I will post more of these as I finish editing.

https://i.imgur.com/3X6pR29.png
This rider likes his comforts - note the furry saddle and that incredible tea kit.

https://i.imgur.com/v9vVBg6.png
I believe I've posted this gorgeous Humber here before. It belongs to Jon Sharratt, the Gentleman Cyclist's "Shirt Tail Organizer". He is mostly responsible for arranging this event, and does one heck of a job.

Finally, here's a shot of my own bike, at the start of the ride in Colville Park, Red Wing, MN.

https://i.imgur.com/Q42JClT.png


.

paulb_in_bkln 05-16-18 09:15 AM


Originally Posted by DQRider (Post 20342921)

Stunning, that green Lake Pepin Rider. What a great day out. Shame about the brewing company being closed but maybe there was an opportunity later in the day.

paulb_in_bkln 05-16-18 09:27 AM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20343104)
Stunning, that green Lake Pepin Rider. What a great day out. Shame about the brewing company being closed but maybe there was an opportunity later in the day.

Now I think, though, I like it better when the pints come at the end of the day's ride. I prefer a clear head when I'm on the bike.

DQRider 05-16-18 10:18 AM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20343104)
Stunning, that green Lake Pepin Rider. What a great day out. Shame about the brewing company being closed but maybe there was an opportunity later in the day.

It's actually an entire weekend, rather than just a day-ride. Unlike the typical "Tweed-Ride" events, we actually emphasize the ride over the fashion. Depending on how many side-excursions, you can put on between 80 and 120 miles over the weekend. I've heard of some going even further than that.


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20343104)
Now I think, though, I like it better when the pints come at the end of the day's ride. I prefer a clear head when I'm on the bike.

Due to the open nature of this event, riders are free to go wherever and stop whenever they want. As a result, some of the participants treat this as a sort of two-wheeled pub crawl, and Wisconsin Highway 35 is renowned for its number and variety of drinking establishments. The organized "beer choir" and other refreshment activities do indeed happen at the end of each day's ride.

.

paulb_in_bkln 05-16-18 10:44 AM

More about that Lake Pepin Rider, which I guess is the new Lenton Tourist I was so taken with last week from that old catalog: "The geometry, based on an early ‘60s Raleigh Superbe, was tweaked to accommodate 650b wheels,..." Am I correct the rim diameter difference from stock is 6 mm? I wonder if that blog post writer invented the tweaking. No mention of the rim type; they'd have to be alloy, right? You couldn't buy chrome steel rims in that size if you wanted to, I don't think.

Velocivixen 05-16-18 11:00 AM

Thanks for the photos of the ride. I love seeing all those old 3 speeds, as well as the scenery and some of the forum members.

On a different note, I sold 2 of my Raleigh Twenty’s. I had my all original, pristine “Miss Molly” on CL, when an older gentleman drove from Washington state (just across the river) for it. While he was there we discussed how he got interested in R20’s......long story short I gave him a killer deal on the little coffee colored one that I had just finished overhauling the mechanicals on. Had not gotten around to tires and chrome work. Then I brought out “The Box” with all sorts of R20 specific items. He ended up getting a nice, free rear rack out of the whole thing. Overall I felt good that they went to an enthusiast vs just someone who wanted a bike.

DQRider 05-16-18 11:08 AM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20343290)
More about that Lake Pepin Rider, which I guess is the new Lenton Tourist I was so taken with last week from that old catalog: "The geometry, based on an early 60s Raleigh Superbe, was tweaked to accommodate 650b wheels,..." Am I correct the rim diameter difference from stock is 6 mm? I wonder if that blog post writer invented the tweaking. No mention of the rim type; they'd have to be alloy, right? You couldn't buy chrome steel rims in that size if you wanted to, I don't think.

Why would you even want to, if the intended purpose is to ride moderate-to-long distances? I rode my DL1 on my first Lake Pepin Tour. Fully kitted out with a rack, panniers, and saddlebag that beast weighed in at 72 lbs. Steel wheels are completely appropriate for that application. But for light touring with only a small load, alloy is the obvious choice. I weighed my Raysport Turismo / Light Roadster just before I left on Saturday morning, and it came out to 42.1 lbs. Of course I've learned to pack lighter these days, and it was a lot easier to pedal this one up the notorious 2.5 mile Bay City Hill. But those alloy Soma "Iggy" wheels felt quite solid over all types of road surface.

As for tweaking the geometry to account for a 6mm difference in wheel diameter, I wouldn't be surprised. After chatting with Jeff for many miles, the impression I got was of a very precise, highly skilled craftsman who would not let a detail like that go without due consideration.

.

Salubrious 05-16-18 11:23 AM

The Lake Pepin 3-speed tour was a blast! After Maiden Rock, I took the Stockholm Bypass, which is actually a short cut (although there is a bit of climbing, but actually turned out to not be that hard). We bypassed Pepin as well, rejoining the route just as hiway 35 drops into the Chippewa River bottoms.

It was cool to see the 650b wheels on Jeff Bock's bike, and I saw one bike equipped with Weinmann alloy 650a rims. So maybe the CR18s are not the only game in town.

desconhecido 05-16-18 12:34 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 20343380)
The Lake Pepin 3-speed tour was a blast! After Maiden Rock, I took the Stockholm Bypass, which is actually a short cut (although there is a bit of climbing, but actually turned out to not be that hard). We bypassed Pepin as well, rejoining the route just as hiway 35 drops into the Chippewa River bottoms.

It was cool to see the 650b wheels on Jeff Bock's bike, and I saw one bike equipped with Weinmann alloy 650a rims. So maybe the CR18s are not the only game in town.

Italian mfr Ambrosio makes a 650a rim that looks, in the pictures, to be modeled after old
Weinmanns. SJS sells them and some others as well. 36 hole only.

Surfing Dutch sellers and found a number of steel and Al rims in the proper size, but all 36h. Dutch seem to have a lot of bikes with the 590mm rims.

paulb_in_bkln 05-16-18 08:27 PM


Originally Posted by DQRider (Post 20342921)

https://i.imgur.com/k8yYhTu.png
Photo by "The Quicker Vicar"

What's the red bike?

Kilroy1988 05-16-18 09:28 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20344353)
What's the red bike?

I want to play! Based on that photo, I'm going to guess a Super Course Mk. II.

-Gregory

rocks in head 05-16-18 09:56 PM

After reading a little in this thread it's tempting to join the fray... then something like this comes along... mint! I won't do it though. Maybe someday.


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