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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

BigChief 10-04-18 04:09 PM

You are exactly right. Raleigh used them too on some bikes in the 40s and 50s.

Piff 10-04-18 07:35 PM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 20599969)
If you don't want to wait for donors and do rim/hub swaps, I saw in a tweet that Harris Cyclery is once again stocking 700c wheels (Sun CR-18 rims) with Sturmey-Archer 3-speed hubs:

https://www.harriscyclery.net/produc...wheel-5766.htm

Now THAT is very interesting :thumb:
You're a bad influence and I thank you for it :D

agmetal 10-05-18 05:18 PM


Originally Posted by dweenk (Post 20600263)
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6745b9e051.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e00b5c1223.jpg

I think this is a headlight bracket that mounts on the quill stem bolt, but that seems to be a dangerous place to put a light. The bracket is the right width for this purpose. Could it be Motobecane?


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20600397)
You are exactly right. Raleigh used them too on some bikes in the 40s and 50s.


....and '30s

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d8f177a61b.jpg

thumpism 10-05-18 05:35 PM

Not English, but Belgian. Coming back from a drive on Skyline Drive today I spotted some bikes in front of a junk shop on U.S. 33 near Stanardsville VA and hung a U-ie to check things out. One Motobecane Nomade, one Schwinn Racer or Breeze 3-speed, and this little gem, a Ludo ladies' 3-speed. What a little gem! I'd never heard of the brand but it appears to be Belgian, borne out by the Brabant license tag for an area near Brussels. Alloy 700C wheels with the Sturmey rear hub (date '82) and a Maillard front, Weinmann brakes, full genset featuring a "Ludo" script taillight that is probably a Soubitez product, ITM stem and bars. Just a delightful little bike. Check out the rear rack that is actually brazed into position at the seat stays and dropouts, and check out the socks on the frame and on the rack.

The proximity to Charlottesville and UVA suggest it came over for school and stuck around when the owner departed. The lady at the shop was asking $75 each for the bikes and I was not in the market but would have loved to bring this one home. She was willing to deal but I just couldn't do it. Having second thoughts now but it's about 70 miles away. Lucky for me.

As with the little Condor 3-speed from Switzerland that I bought at our co-op, this one is worth buying just for the alloy 700C Sturmey wheelset.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...347c6c7677.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9995ee6f09.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...00005ab064.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d076ab2a63.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...94f8fb5050.jpg

clubman 10-05-18 07:51 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 20602284)
... Alloy 700C wheels with the Sturmey rear hub (date '82) and a Maillard front, Weinmann brakes, full genset featuring a "Ludo" script taillight that is probably a Soubitez product, ITM stem and bars. Just a delightful little bike. Check out the rear rack that is actually brazed into position at the seat stays and dropouts, and check out the socks on the frame and on the rack..

Great example of a Euro bike many of us would build in a second if the parts were in our stash. Lighweight, IGH, integrated racks, nice fit and finish. Sweet.

I wish this pic was full frame and showed this stylish 50-somethin woman spotted in the wild in Turin. Like a business exec off to work until I saw the shoes matching the scarf, the red coat playing off the tailights and graphics on a perfect Columbus mixte with Campy kit and a nice stem. Everyday rides for cool bike people.

2 locks.

I also like the top-o-chainguard flair to all allow a front gear. Different.

BigChief 10-06-18 05:45 AM


Originally Posted by agmetal (Post 20602251)

Here's one on the 1948 Sports Light Roadster

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a515fb797f.jpg

dweenk 10-06-18 02:54 PM


Originally Posted by agmetal (Post 20602251)
....and '30s

Thank you for the verification. If anyone wants this part, it is yours for the cost of shipping.

jamesj 10-07-18 05:17 PM

Added my BROOKS and MKS pedals. The drive side fork had a dent and was bent, I ended up having a frame builder friend realign it for me. Still has the dent but placed some hear stickers kindly donated by my daughter on it.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...63545a0593.jpg


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6c41baa15d.jpg


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4c493a79fa.jpg


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2e72dee8df.jpg


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0115789a1d.jpg


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1141219ff3.jpg

BigChief 10-07-18 08:59 PM

Nice job @jamesj Looks like you have it all finished. I like the sprung Brooks saddle and MKS touring pedals. Classy ride.

Dsprok 10-08-18 06:47 AM

Good Work! Jamesj.
Is the rear reflector stock? It's huge.

gster 10-08-18 06:49 AM


Originally Posted by jamesj (Post 20604841)
Added my BROOKS and MKS pedals. The drive side fork had a dent and was bent, I ended up having a frame builder friend realign it for me. Still has the dent but placed some hear stickers kindly donated by my daughter on it.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...63545a0593.jpg


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6c41baa15d.jpg


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4c493a79fa.jpg


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2e72dee8df.jpg


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0115789a1d.jpg


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1141219ff3.jpg

A handsome bike.
I prefer the MKS rubber pedals.

dweenk 10-08-18 12:58 PM


Originally Posted by Dsprok (Post 20605547)
Good Work! Jamesj.
Is the rear reflector stock? It's huge.

Raleigh started using the "coffin" reflectors on the later Sports models.

thumpism 10-08-18 04:46 PM


Originally Posted by Dsprok (Post 20605547)
Good Work! Jamesj.
Is the rear reflector stock? It's huge.

That's your Consumer Products Safety Commission at work. Same folks who brought you wheel reflectors, pedal reflectors and non-snag front derailleur cages, among many other things guaranteed to enhance your cycling pleasure.

gster 10-09-18 06:48 PM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 20606734)
That's your Consumer Products Safety Commission at work. Same folks who brought you wheel reflectors, pedal reflectors and non-snag front derailleur cages, among many other things guaranteed to enhance your cycling pleasure.

You'll soon need a permit to wipe your nose (as well as the appropriate safety training that you'll be charged for).

thumpism 10-09-18 07:08 PM

Permits? We don't need no stinkin' permits!

BigChief 10-09-18 07:30 PM

us scorchers are a feisty bunch, ain't we.

jamesj 10-10-18 09:51 AM


Originally Posted by Dsprok (Post 20605547)
Good Work! Jamesj.
Is the rear reflector stock? It's huge.

Yep it is.
i always see them on the end of the 70ís Raleighís and 80ís ones. Eve had one on my 88 Raleigh Sport.

agmetal 10-10-18 02:36 PM

After something like 2-1/2 years, I've finally gotten around to installing the 1930s-40s 8V DynoHub and a headlight on my '37 Raleigh Tourist! I can't seem to find a suitable bulb for the taillight anywhere, so I'm only bothering with the headlight for now, and I have a period-correct one on its way to me from the UK. I'll swap the newer light out for the older one once that arrives.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...33034e061b.jpg

groth 10-10-18 04:20 PM

Resurrecting a 1972 Raleigh Sports
 

Originally Posted by groth (Post 20579098)
Thanks, and to Salubrious as well.

Mine is a 72-1 unlined hub. (Also, it's 40 - 32, rear - front and a 9 point heron ring.)

I've owned this bike since it was new and am "resurrecting" it, not restoring it.

This forum and Sheldon's pages have been very helpful. I hope to post more photos and the story of the bike in the not too distant future.

- Ed

I've finished the resurrection (at least for now) and as promised here are some photos and the story of the bike.

Actually, I made a web page with photos and the history:

Resurrecting an English Racer, Fall, 2018

Here is the main text from the web page:

Yes, I know itís not a racer! But I had a bike like this when I was a kid. It followed a single speed coaster brake bike. Compared to that bike it was an English Racer, which is what all the kids in the neighborhood called it in the early and mid 1950s!

Jane surprised me with a new bike. My memory is that it was a Christmas present in 1972 or 1973. Iím pretty sure it had to be then because I associate the bike with where we were living at the time: Magie apartments - junior faculty housing at Princeton University. We lived there from summer, 1971 to summer, 1974. and Iím sure it wasnít the first Christmas we were there. As part of resurrecting the bike, I found the date code on the hub. Itís January, 1972. So, itís Christmas, 1972. Itís conceivable that it was for my birthday in May, but Iím going to stick with Christmas!

Over the years I got it out for various things. I remember taking it to Woods Hole for a conference in the early 1980s, and taking it on the ferry to Marthaís Vineyard, where a group of us rode to a beach house for a party.

Around 1996 I started cycling seriously and used this bike. The first picture below shows the bike as it was in 1997. Itís pretty much as it came from the bike shop at that point. I no longer have the original seat bag. I still have the baskets although Iíve removed them. Canít believe i rode it with the seat so low!

I believe I added a cyclometer and possibly a mirror. I also probably had to add a new indicator chain, and a new cotter (I found a mangled one in a parts box in the basement).

I had thought to ride it in the 1998 RAGBRAI, but finally decided it didnít have wide enough gearing and bought a Bianchi Volpe. This pretty much consigned the bike to storage until I decided in late summer, 2018 to resurrect the bike for the more upright riding position to help with wrist pain, at least for relatively short, flat rides.

By the time I started taking photos of the process, I had already replaced the rims and brake pads, done a good cleaning, and got plenty of oil in the front and rear hubs.

I may still need to service the rear hub. Weíll see.

So far as I know, the bike is original except for: rims, pedals, brake blocks, indicator chain, cotters, seat bag, tubes and tires. I also added a mirror.

The bike is the 21 inch size. The chain ring has 46 teeth and the rear sprocket has 17 (apparently an unusual number!). So the gearing is 53, 70, and 94 gear inches. My Trek has a gear range of 16 to 107 gear inches (quite a bit lower than the stock gearing). The Sports weighs about 36 lbs.


Here are a couple of photos:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...355f08a56b.jpg

My son with his Schwinn 10-speed on the right and my Sports on the left. We were getting ready to ride the MHCC half century on September 9, 1997.


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2a2bb2da2b.jpg

The Sports as it looked on October 11, 2018.

More photos on the web page cited above.

- Ed

PeterLYoung 10-10-18 04:56 PM

1936 BSA Roadster, 3Speed (BSA) + Hub Brakes
 
I found this 1936 BSA Roadster at an auction, It has BSA Three Speed plus Hub Brakes Front & Rear. It is Model 602DX Serial Number WD29996 and cost £6-12/6d when new. I have not found another when searching on-line so far. I also cannot find a spare 3Speed BSA Rear Hub with combined Hub Brake for spares though at present all works OK. I have now stripped it all completely and am rebuilding it after repainting as paintwork was very poor as it had been badly hand painted by a previous owner. Mechanically it was in good shape and all components just needed cleaning, de rusting and repainting. Frame is being powder coated and I have new transfers.
Hope to have it all finished and back on the road for next summer.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2f28018533.png


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c79af02872.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a084c4f36c.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...41e513ad38.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...da185a0978.jpg

BigChief 10-10-18 05:11 PM


Originally Posted by PeterLYoung (Post 20610232)
I found this 1936 BSA Roadster at an auction, It has BSA Three Speed plus Hub Brakes Front & Rear. It is Model 602DX Serial Number WD29996 and cost £6-12/6d when new. I have not found another when searching on-line so far. I also cannot find a spare 3Speed BSA Rear Hub with combined Hub Brake for spares though at present all works OK. I have now stripped it all completely and am rebuilding it after repainting as paintwork was very poor as it had been badly hand painted by a previous owner. Mechanically it was in good shape and all components just needed cleaning, de rusting and repainting. Frame is being powder coated and I have new transfers.
Hope to have it all finished and back on the road for next summer.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2f28018533.png


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c79af02872.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a084c4f36c.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...41e513ad38.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...da185a0978.jpg

I believe they are Sturmey Archer KB and LB hubs. Either made under license or simply stamped with the BSA logo. Here's a 1934 SA catalog page. Spares for these are a machine shop proposition unless you're exceptionally lucky. Great bike!!!

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...412572808f.jpg

BigChief 10-10-18 05:24 PM


Originally Posted by groth (Post 20610175)
I've finished the resurrection (at least for now) and as promised here are some photos and the story of the bike.

Actually, I made a web page with photos and the history:

Resurrecting an English Racer, Fall, 2018

Here is the main text from the web page:

Yes, I know itís not a racer! But I had a bike like this when I was a kid. It followed a single speed coaster brake bike. Compared to that bike it was an English Racer, which is what all the kids in the neighborhood called it in the early and mid 1950s!

Jane surprised me with a new bike. My memory is that it was a Christmas present in 1972 or 1973. Iím pretty sure it had to be then because I associate the bike with where we were living at the time: Magie apartments - junior faculty housing at Princeton University. We lived there from summer, 1971 to summer, 1974. and Iím sure it wasnít the first Christmas we were there. As part of resurrecting the bike, I found the date code on the hub. Itís January, 1972. So, itís Christmas, 1972. Itís conceivable that it was for my birthday in May, but Iím going to stick with Christmas!

Over the years I got it out for various things. I remember taking it to Woods Hole for a conference in the early 1980s, and taking it on the ferry to Marthaís Vineyard, where a group of us rode to a beach house for a party.

Around 1996 I started cycling seriously and used this bike. The first picture below shows the bike as it was in 1997. Itís pretty much as it came from the bike shop at that point. I no longer have the original seat bag. I still have the baskets although Iíve removed them. Canít believe i rode it with the seat so low!

I believe I added a cyclometer and possibly a mirror. I also probably had to add a new indicator chain, and a new cotter (I found a mangled one in a parts box in the basement).

I had thought to ride it in the 1998 RAGBRAI, but finally decided it didnít have wide enough gearing and bought a Bianchi Volpe. This pretty much consigned the bike to storage until I decided in late summer, 2018 to resurrect the bike for the more upright riding position to help with wrist pain, at least for relatively short, flat rides.

By the time I started taking photos of the process, I had already replaced the rims and brake pads, done a good cleaning, and got plenty of oil in the front and rear hubs.

I may still need to service the rear hub. Weíll see.

So far as I know, the bike is original except for: rims, pedals, brake blocks, indicator chain, cotters, seat bag, tubes and tires. I also added a mirror.

The bike is the 21 inch size. The chain ring has 46 teeth and the rear sprocket has 17 (apparently an unusual number!). So the gearing is 53, 70, and 94 gear inches. My Trek has a gear range of 16 to 107 gear inches (quite a bit lower than the stock gearing). The Sports weighs about 36 lbs.


Here are a couple of photos:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...355f08a56b.jpg

My son with his Schwinn 10-speed on the right and my Sports on the left. We were getting ready to ride the MHCC half century on September 9, 1997.


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2a2bb2da2b.jpg

The Sports as it looked on October 11, 2018.

More photos on the web page cited above.

- Ed

Great story. Really nice to see such a fine old roadster back in use. One thing...that's a 23" frame. Beautiful bike. A classic in bronze green.

PeterLYoung 10-10-18 05:33 PM

Hi Big Chief: Thanks your reply, I thought BSA designed their own, I found a Sturmey Archer Front Hub Brake at an Autojumble but found it to be totally different to the BSA front hub, I was hoping brake parts were interchangeable but they are not also the action to change gear is the reverse of Sturmey Archer 3 Speed hubs. I am not saying you are incorrect, you may well be correct but I cannot find anything to confirm. I have looked at manuals for both BSA & Sturmey Archer and there are differences but I accept this does not mean BSA were not making under License. Another question is whether the 3 Speed construction has to be compressed to allow space for the Brake Hub making it even more rare, I still need to determine this. I want to dismantle the 3 Speed to clean and check it but I am wary of doing this in case something goes wrong and without spare parts I cannot fix it. It is working perfectly but I am one of those people who feel a compulsion (mental illness) to strip, clean, reassemble and lubricate so I know all is OK. I will have to rebuild the bike with the hub untouched until I find another hub (but I have the feeling it is a rare thing because it made the bike a lot more expensive when new).
Best regards
Peter

BigChief 10-10-18 06:24 PM

I have no experience with pre-war bikes. It looks like a very similar design. Still, even if parts were interchangeable with SA it wouldn't be of much help. Couldn't tell you where to find a K hub. Especially a KB. It's a good bet some parts are more compressed in this drum brake version because many part numbers are different for later SA hubs with and without Dyno sections. I'd love to see pictures of these hubs apart if you have a chance.

groth 10-10-18 06:41 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20610275)
Great story. Really nice to see such a fine old roadster back in use. One thing...that's a 23" frame. Beautiful bike. A classic in bronze green.

Big Chief -

What do you measure to figure out the frame size?

Thanks,
Ed

BigChief 10-10-18 07:20 PM


Originally Posted by groth (Post 20610391)
Big Chief -

What do you measure to figure out the frame size?

Thanks,
Ed

I can tell from looking at the length of head tube in the photo. It's easy to tell a 21" from a 23" by the distance between the top tube and down tube at the head tube lug.

agmetal 10-10-18 08:32 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20610368)
I have no experience with pre-war bikes. It looks like a very similar design. Still, even if parts were interchangeable with SA it wouldn't be of much help. Couldn't tell you where to find a K hub. Especially a KB. It's a good bet some parts are more compressed in this drum brake version because many part numbers are different for later SA hubs with and without Dyno sections. I'd love to see pictures of these hubs apart if you have a chance.

If it's a BSA-branded hub, it's more likely a licensed version of the S-A X-type hub, a model from 1905. I've been wanting to get my hands on a BSA 3-speed hub! I have a K on my 1937 Raleigh Tourist (see the picture of the headlight further up the page), but I'm pretty sure it's a different hub from anything saying BSA on it.

BigChief 10-10-18 09:21 PM

From 1954, but a totally different hub from the SA , Hercules and Brampton versions I'm familiar with. Always something new to learn.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/bsahub.html

PeterLYoung 10-11-18 01:51 AM

1936 BSA Roadster, 3Speed (BSA) + Hub Brakes
 
BigChief: Yes I have this BSA Data Sheet from Sheldon Brown and I will use this to dismantle mine when I get up enough courage to do it. I attach part of the BSA 1939 Catalogue showing Hub Options, There is a BSA 3Speed Hub on ebay but the owner is asking £265 which is an awfully high amount, but it does have with it the gear changer to go on the top tube ( I have a NOS one of these complete with cable but they are as rare as Hens Teeth).
I have just found on ebay a BSA 3Speed normal hub 40 spoke holes for £45 which I have bought and will dismantle as a practice piece before stripping mine. It may well have many compatible components which I can use for spares.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c6c689d3dd.png


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0702700353.png

PeterLYoung 10-11-18 02:15 AM


Originally Posted by groth (Post 20610391)
Big Chief -

What do you measure to figure out the frame size?

Thanks,
Ed

BigChief is correct that with experience you can tell on traditional frames the size in the way he says.
If you measure from the centre of the bottom bracket to the top of the seat tube it should measure 23"
Regards


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