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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

desconhecido 10-20-18 04:02 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20625706)
The bike did arrive toady and it's a little rougher than it appears in the photo...
they always do.
The Good
Vintage frame in reasonable shape (straight)
BSA chain ring
Decorative front forks
Dyno hub
Newish front tire
1961 SA hub
one good caliper
Faint "Tour of Britain" decal
Cranks are straight

The Bad
paint is rough (I will leave as is)
back tire needs replacing
Cables and brake pads crap
vinyl saddle
Cheap grips
modern trigger
weird modern stem
Chrome fenders from an Eatons Glider
crappy brake levers
cranks are mis aligned
cotters driven in from same side
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c400da0db0.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...496fe9c8b3.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...024dc5113b.jpg



Somebody has clearly messed this up a bit.
Not surprising for a bike 60+ years old.

So I think this one's a good candidate for a semi-scorcher.
I have most of the parts I need in the garage

Oh, man, I love that fork. For me, that would be the price of admission, right there. Was that a BSA thing or is that something that's found its way into your possession, sort of like a subtle tune carried on a soft autumn breeze?

If you might scorcherize it, have you thought about 700c? Problems with that are: rims with 40h and easy clearance for only 28mm, maybe 32mm with some KY.

BigChief 10-20-18 05:27 PM

I like this bike. It offers some nice possibilities you wouldn't get with a clean, more complete example. For me, it would be a scorcher build. I'll say now that I prefer 21" frames for scorchers. The important things are there. A real 50s Birmingham frame, that great fork and the BSA crank. I wouldn't think twice about stripping and repainting this frameset. Looks like the Raleigh rear rim is in poor shape, but you got a 61 AW out of the deal.Yeah, those are later cheapo brake levers. Pretty sure this bike would have had the stirrup style originally, but again, no need to preserve them. This could be one sharp scorcher!! love it.

gster 10-20-18 05:29 PM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20625734)
Oh, man, I love that fork. For me, that would be the price of admission, right there. Was that a BSA thing or is that something that's found its way into your possession, sort of like a subtle tune carried on a soft autumn breeze?

If you might scorcherize it, have you thought about 700c? Problems with that are: rims with 40h and easy clearance for only 28mm, maybe 32mm with some KY.

I've never built a wheel before but thought I might give it a go.
The back wheel is out of true quite a bit.

gster 10-20-18 05:41 PM

Tour of Britain 1953
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4ba1bd0de1.jpg
Gordon W. "Tiny" Thomas (18 August 1921 – 10 April 2013) was a British cyclist who competed at the 1948 Summer Olympics in London. There he won a silver medal in the team road race alongside Bob Maitland and Ian Scott.[1] He also competed in the individual event, placing 8th in a field of 101 participants. Born in Shipley, West Riding of Yorkshire,[2] he served during World War IIwith the Royal Artillery in Africa and Italy. After his Olympic experience, he went on to win the 1953 Tour of Britain before retiring from cycling to enter the wool business.[3]

agmetal 10-20-18 09:44 PM

Something I've been wondering about...Is it possible to convert a modern SA hub with a drum brake to oil lubrication? I know that the old ones were oiled, but is there any reason not to do that with a modern hub? The thing I'd be worried about is potential contamination of the braking surfaces, but I'm wondering if doing this conversion would my winter bike a little less of a slog to ride in the cold

gster 10-21-18 02:10 AM

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8aaf0f7419.jpg

gster 10-21-18 07:06 AM

Messed around With BSA
I'd mentioned that I could tell the bike had been messed with in the past.
On a positive note the cotters came out easily.
the cup took a bit of work but it was worth it for the
surprise inside!
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fec0a623ee.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5af2f541e5.jpg
What is this peaking out?
Some rust encrusted fabric sticking out....
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f6beb59ddb.jpg
This rotten old sock (?) was wrapped around the spindle and stuffed into the BB.
What's up with that?
Some old home remedy?
It's pretty grimy and rusty inside but should clean up.
More to follow

BigChief 10-21-18 07:50 AM

Holy cow! OK, that's taking backyard engineering a bit too far. Funny how two of the most messed up bikes I ever bought turned out to be my favorite riders. I see some good mojo building here for this old BSA.

gster 10-21-18 08:00 AM

More Tomfoolery!
This could be a BSA thing but I've never seen it before.
I suspect more messing around...
There's an extra race at the bottom of the stem.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3d88b6a68e.jpg
On disassembly another extra was found up top.
.https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...806f057dce.jpg
There bearings here were clean and new so I suspect this was "worked on" somewhat recently.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f0b3f0ff2a.jpg
On the plus side...
One good caliper and a long seat post.

BigChief 10-21-18 10:20 AM

I have a theory...Some headset bearing cups are designed for caged bearings and are deeper than those meant for loose balls. I don't know which type would have been original on this bike. I think Mr. Meatball tried to use loose bearings with cups designed for caged bearings and found it was too deep, so he just used another lower race to sandwich the loose bearings. Ugh. But, I think you may be able to swap out the the cups and races with Raleigh parts. edit...or find the correct size caged bearings.

desconhecido 10-21-18 12:36 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20626531)
I have a theory...Some headset bearing cups are designed for caged bearings and are deeper than those meant for loose balls. I don't know which type would have been original on this bike. I think Mr. Meatball tried to use loose bearings with cups designed for caged bearings and found it was too deep, so he just used another lower race to sandwich the loose bearings. Ugh. But, I think you may be able to swap out the the cups and races with Raleigh parts.

Makes me wonder if that fork and frame have been married for a long time or might they be newly-weds? If you take the extra stuff out of there, the steerer will either need to be shortened or a bunch of spacers will be necessary. Seems like the steerer is too long for the headtube and a normal length stack of stuff. I suppose there is one thing: it's probably better to shim with some headset parts rather than an old sock. I can hear it: "Hey, I think my fork thing is too long, the nut won't tighten." "Yeah? Stick a sock in it."

Would be interesting to know the steerer threading and the length of the steerer and headtube, or stack height.

desconhecido 10-21-18 12:41 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20626290)
Messed around With BSA
I'd mentioned that I could tell the bike had been messed with in the past.
On a positive note the cotters came out easily.
the cup took a bit of work but it was worth it for the
surprise inside!
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fec0a623ee.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5af2f541e5.jpg
What is this peaking out?
Some rust encrusted fabric sticking out....
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f6beb59ddb.jpg
This rotten old sock (?) was wrapped around the spindle and stuffed into the BB.
What's up with that?
Some old home remedy?
It's pretty grimy and rusty inside but should clean up.
More to follow


There's probably some guy out there right now looking for that sock. "Hey have you seen my other sock? I can't find it anywhere." Place a lost and found ad in CL: "Are you missing one of these?" "Found, one sock, pretty grimy and rusty inside but should clean up."

Jeez, I need a nap.

3speedslow 10-21-18 01:03 PM

That Tom! He’s always fooling around!

BigChief 10-21-18 01:18 PM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20626696)
Makes me wonder if that fork and frame have been married for a long time or might they be newly-weds? If you take the extra stuff out of there, the steerer will either need to be shortened or a bunch of spacers will be necessary. Seems like the steerer is too long for the headtube and a normal length stack of stuff. I suppose there is one thing: it's probably better to shim with some headset parts rather than an old sock. I can hear it: "Hey, I think my fork thing is too long, the nut won't tighten." "Yeah? Stick a sock in it."

Would be interesting to know the steerer threading and the length of the steerer and headtube, or stack height.

I think the paint matches. Looks original to me. The reason I know about this is a few years ago I bought a very messed up 21" mid 50s Rudge Sports. It has a '55 alloy shell AW that, in my twisted mind was worth the price of the bike. The original fork was replaced with one of unknown manufacture. When I went to service the headset I found it had caged bearings.When I tried replacing them with the 5/32" bearings this bike should have, they didn't fit the cups that were pressed into the frame. It was too loose. The cups wouldn't engage the bearings. The cups must have been changed as well. I think that's what happened here, but instead of pressing in new cups or finding the correct caged bearings, he came up with this brilliant plan. Perhaps BSA used caged bearings on this bike originally.

gster 10-21-18 03:42 PM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20626696)
Makes m e wonder if that fork and frame have been married for a long time or might they be newly-weds? If you take the extra stuff out of there, the steerer will either need to be shortened or a bunch of spacers will be necessary. Seems like the steerer is too long for the headtube and a normal length stack of stuff. I suppose there is one thing: it's probably better to shim with some headset parts rather than an old sock. I can hear it: "Hey, I think my fork thing is too long, the nut won't tighten." "Yeah? Stick a sock in it."

Would be interesting to know the steerer threading and the length of the steerer and headtube, or stack height.

Actually, the sock was in the Bottom bracket....
I'll investigate the steering tube business as well.
It looks to me like any other headset (British) I've seen and I can't imagine caged bearings on
a bike this old.
Time will tell...

gster 10-21-18 04:00 PM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20626703)
There's probably some guy out there right now looking for that sock. "Hey have you seen my other sock? I can't find it anywhere." Place a lost and found ad in CL: "Are you missing one of these?" "Found, one sock, pretty grimy and rusty inside but should clean up."

Jeez, I need a nap.

That was his favourite sock, too.

gster 10-21-18 04:22 PM

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a7dc620596.jpg
a similar vintage.. maybe correct...

jamesj 10-21-18 04:27 PM

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ce674ddd39.jpg

desconhecido 10-21-18 04:28 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20626915)
Actually, the sock was in the Bottom bracket....
I'll investigate the steering tube business as well.
It looks to me like any other headset (British) I've seen and I can't imagine caged bearings on
a bike this old.
Time will tell...

Yeah, I know, but it doesn't make any more sense being stuffed in the bottom bracket shell than in the headtube or anywhere else. Maybe whoever put it there had a theory about keeping the BB warm.

That sock looks like those green ones that they issued to us in basic training. Man, I hated those socks

desconhecido 10-21-18 05:28 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20626951)
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a7dc620596.jpg
a similar vintage.. maybe correct...

Need to check that bike and see if there's a sock in the bottom bracket.

On English Ebay, I found this ad for a Thomas Cross headset It's not real easy to tell from the photos but there are seven parts making up that set and I think it may be what's on yours, but, I've never seen such a thing. Amazing.

gster 10-21-18 05:34 PM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20627031)
Need to check that bike and see if there's a sock in the bottom bracket.

On English Ebay, I found this ad for a Thomas Cross headset It's not real easy to tell from the photos but there are seven parts making up that set and I think it may be what's on yours, but, I've never seen such a thing. Amazing.

Good detective work.

gster 10-21-18 05:44 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20627038)
Good detective work.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3308b55a6c.jpg

clubman 10-21-18 08:40 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20627049)

I have some of these parts. One complete headset (reserved for a pre war Dunelt) and some extra new bits. Show me pics of what you want to replace.

gster 10-22-18 03:58 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20627292)
I have some of these parts. One complete headset (reserved for a pre war Dunelt) and some extra new bits. Show me pics of what you want to replace.

Thanks for the offer.
I think I have all the parts, just need to sort them out.

BigChief 10-22-18 10:47 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20626951)
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a7dc620596.jpg
a similar vintage.. maybe correct...

That's a Raleigh frame with the standard headset. Would love to see the whole bike. I still think that cup on yours was meant for a caged bearing, or perhaps larger bearings. When he went to assemble it with 5/32 bearings it was loose and his solution was to place another crown race on top, wedged into the oversized cup. But that leaves the joint exposed. This is exactly what happened to me with the Rudge. Fortunately, the caged bearings were in good shape, so I reused them. But I'm sure I could have also replaced the cups with Raleigh, used loose 5/32" bearings and still get away with using the threaded upper race and lock nut. What's on the upper end of your headset? Is it the same?

DQRider 10-22-18 11:12 AM

Autumn Leaves and Terrible Headwinds
 
Here are some images from my ride yesterday on the Sakatah Singing Hills Trail in Faribault, MN.

https://i.imgur.com/7dAqtzj.png

I meant to get out and photograph our beautiful Autumn leaves, but I found that the combination of unseasonably cold weather and high winds has hastened the transition this year.

https://i.imgur.com/ISIO4If.png

Many trees were already bare, and the trail was littered with yellow-colored leaves.

https://i.imgur.com/elFCfSl.png

And that wind! You can see by the surface of the lake here that the water was being whipped up by the constant 15-20mph gusts.

https://i.imgur.com/VAo6JgT.png

Although I meant to ride the entire length of this trail and return, I only managed about 15 miles fighting that headwind before I decided to turn back. At least I enjoyed the tailwind on the return leg.

In other news, a new project is coming my way. I've agreed to buy this 1949 Raleigh Clubman frameset from a good friend of mine, and I'm sure it will prompt many questions for this group.

https://i.imgur.com/zrT9Zdb.png

I can't wait to get started, but I won't take delivery until the first week in November. Stay tuned...

.

mrMike88 10-22-18 12:10 PM

This may not be the right thread for this idea. And it's more of a thought experiment than an idea.
There are lots of posts about how bad Walmart bikes are, and generalizing about other "big store" brands.
All of these bikes seem to imitate the best quality bikes around but do so with inferior materials, much heavier weight, and shoddy assembly, almost guaranteeing a bad biking experience.
I know that this isn't something Walmart would ever do, but it seems to me that:
The design and technology and parts for them to sell a duplicate of an English 3-speed with the quality of a 1965 Raleigh should be well understood. I'm wondering if they have ever thought of doing something like that and how much it would actually cost and sell for. I know that Linus and others make something along that line: same frame style, 3 internal-hub gears, fenders, etc. Bikes like this are marketed as "retro", which implies to me that you have to give up ... something for the styling and lack of features like the 21 speeds. But if a Walmart bike can have all of the features (made with inferior quality and assembly) as real bicycles, would it be possible for them to make much simpler bikes but actually make them with some quality - and what would that cost?

BigChief 10-22-18 01:38 PM


Originally Posted by mrMike88 (Post 20628179)
This may not be the right thread for this idea. And it's more of a thought experiment than an idea.
There are lots of posts about how bad Walmart bikes are, and generalizing about other "big store" brands.
All of these bikes seem to imitate the best quality bikes around but do so with inferior materials, much heavier weight, and shoddy assembly, almost guaranteeing a bad biking experience.
I know that this isn't something Walmart would ever do, but it seems to me that:
The design and technology and parts for them to sell a duplicate of an English 3-speed with the quality of a 1965 Raleigh should be well understood. I'm wondering if they have ever thought of doing something like that and how much it would actually cost and sell for. I know that Linus and others make something along that line: same frame style, 3 internal-hub gears, fenders, etc. Bikes like this are marketed as "retro", which implies to me that you have to give up ... something for the styling and lack of features like the 21 speeds. But if a Walmart bike can have all of the features (made with inferior quality and assembly) as real bicycles, would it be possible for them to make much simpler bikes but actually make them with some quality - and what would that cost?

There are very few enthusiasts of old fashioned roadsters. It's a tiny market. The manufacturing processes used were outdated even by 1960s standards. There are a few companies like Pashley that have products that cater to that market, but they are very expensive. I'm afraid those days are gone, but luckily there's a large supply of relatively inexpensive vintage roadsters around to keep us busy for a long time.

Cute Boy Horse 10-22-18 05:49 PM

From a purely anglo perspective only. In the rest the world not so.

India moves on roadsters. Terrible ones that have chrome that falls off, screws with soft metal, they cost only 60 equivalent. This is transport of hundreds of millions today. In denmark the Raleigh Tourist sells today for a little less than 650, this is with drum brakes and a twist gearshift. And in holland every hardware shop sells basic steel roadsters with a coasterbrake For around 250, and makes good business doing it.

Once simple transport bikes have to be marketed to enthusiasts you know the society you're selling in has gone past the brink.

clubman 10-22-18 06:47 PM


Originally Posted by Cute Boy Horse (Post 20628701)
From a purely anglo perspective only. In the rest the world not so.

India moves on roadsters. Terrible ones that have chrome that falls off, screws with soft metal, they cost only 60 equivalent. This is transport of hundreds of millions today.

In denmark the Raleigh Tourist sells today for a little less than 650, this is with drum brakes and a twist gearshift. And in holland every hardware shop sells basic steel roadsters with a coasterbrake For around 250, and makes good business doing it.

Once simple transport bikes have to be marketed to enthusiasts you know the society you're selling in has gone past the brink.

Even from a colonial perpective ;)

India has 1.3 billion people, many that live in poverty by first world standards. Roadsters are workbikes and must be cheap and can and will be fixed by shady tree mechanics found anywhere.

Denmark has one of the higher standards of living as a social democracy. It's a very flat country with decent average incomes and expensive transportation and other sin costs. It consists of 350 islands plus Jutland. Vikings now ride bikes on ferries.

Holland is likely the flatest country in the world, has an educated, social democratic society and are ruthlessly practical. Like my Dutch ex-wife :twitchy:.
The Netherlands was smart enough to reinforce it's domestic bike industry in the post war period, including a relationship with Raleigh. Cars were never going to be the primary mover of people. Trains, trams and bikes are the way to go when the population is mostly located in dense urban centres.

North America is like no other market. Buy what we make because you don't know what you want and you have excess capital or credit. Advertising and marketing will make your decisions easier for you. Extend yourself and buy everything you can becuase it makes jobs and floats all boats.

I for one think our nationalism is highly overrated. Wally World is the end of days.


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