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genejockey 07-21-22 12:24 PM


Originally Posted by MoAlpha (Post 22582525)
Yeah, and obesity is just another highly technical and heavily researched area on which everyone feels qualified to pronounce.

Especially if it's not something you, yourself ever suffered. Like saying "Calorie counting is a waste of time", when you had to put conscious effort into GAINING weight. Just as an example.....

MoAlpha 07-21-22 12:33 PM


Originally Posted by Mojo31 (Post 22582526)
Thoughts on the new study that suggests that depression is not a chemical serotonin imbalance?

Huge New Study Suggests Depression Isn't a Serotonin Imbalance After All (sciencealert.com)

Yeah, I have thoughts. This is an authoritative and exhaustive review showing that the simplistic hypothesis that low serotonin levels are responsible for depression is nonsense. Most experts already understood this, since it's thinking from the 1970s when shrinks saw the brain as a sort of soup that just needed the right neurotransmitter seasoning. It is still possible that serotonin transmission is involved in depression in some subtle way that researchers don't understand. Psychiatrists are becoming more like neurologists (accused as seeing the brain as a computer, rather than a soup) and focusing on function in individual brain networks. This is yielding rapid advances in areas like deep brain stimulation for OCD and depression, and identifying individual populations of malfunctioning cells. I think it's likely that serotonin may be rediscovered, but at a much more complex and localized level.

A conclusion of the paper is that drugs (SSRIs) advertised as increasing serotonin probably don't work the way they are advertised as working, i.e., by inhibiting the reuptake of serotonin by nerve cells. This is not, however, to say they don't WORK at all, which is what many people have inferred from their non-reading of the paper or accused the authors of saying.

datlas 07-21-22 12:33 PM


Originally Posted by Mojo31 (Post 22582526)
Thoughts on the new study that suggests that depression is not a chemical serotonin imbalance?

Huge New Study Suggests Depression Isn't a Serotonin Imbalance After All (sciencealert.com)

I think trying to simplify/deconstruct depression into a "chemical imbalance in the brain" is not realistic. Even if we could, it would be unclear if this is causing the depression or caused by it.

Remember, the brain works in mysterious ways.

genejockey 07-21-22 12:37 PM


Originally Posted by datlas (Post 22582550)
I think trying to simplify/deconstruct depression into a "chemical imbalance in the brain" is not realistic. Even if we could, it would be unclear if this is causing the depression or caused by it.

Remember, the brain works in mysterious ways.

Not to mention idiosyncratic. One should be leery of applying sweeping conclusions to individual cases.

indyfabz 07-21-22 12:42 PM


Originally Posted by genejockey (Post 22582413)
It is an interesting turn, that in the past, pale skin and a voluptuous figure in women was a sign of wealth, because 1) you didn't have to work outside and 2) you had enough food to overeat, but now it's the opposite - you have enough time and money to exercise outside and to eat healthy. Largely (haha) because calories are cheap now, especially in the most tempting forms - think McDonalds, Doritos and Entenmann's.

EDIT: I realize that many don't find those tempting, but really, they're calibrated to hit the areas where I don't think we evolved a "That's Too Much" sensor - fat, starch, sugar, the things our distant ancestors could never get enough of.

Several years ago I went on a relatively difficult ride out of Valley Forge park. I was famished when I got done. The closest thing I could find without going that far out of my way was a Taco Bell. I almost never eat "corporate" fast food, but I was desperate. I got two of a new item that was on the menu. Some type of burrito or something similar. Started eating and thought that the food tasted like it was designed specifically to do the above. I can see how many people develop a strong craving for that type of stuff.

big john 07-21-22 12:42 PM


Originally Posted by MoAlpha (Post 22582525)
Yeah, and obesity is just another highly technical and heavily researched area on which everyone feels qualified to pronounce.

I used to watch "My 600 Pound Life" and will again if it comes back. Sometimes it's fascinating hearing their backstory and hearing what they talk about at psychotherapy, if they go. Many times there has been sexual abuse and a lot of the women say they started on the path to morbid obesity as a coping mechanism and that they thought if they got bigger they would not be so appealing to their abusers.

It's also interesting to see how they react to the doctors orders. A lot of them say the same things, you don't understand me, it's not fair, you don't know my body like I do, the scale is wrong, etc.

The ones who do the best seem to be those who have loving family around who actually help and the ones who fail usually have a militant enabler, especially a parent and usually a mother who just can't let go but sometimes the husbands freak out if the wife starts to lose weight and he will sabotage if he can.

Mojo31 07-21-22 12:47 PM


Originally Posted by datlas (Post 22582550)
I think trying to simplify/deconstruct depression into a "chemical imbalance in the brain" is not realistic. Even if we could, it would be unclear if this is causing the depression or caused by it.

Remember, the brain works in mysterious ways.

When it works it does! Right? :rolleyes:

Bah Humbug 07-21-22 12:49 PM


Originally Posted by MoAlpha (Post 22582393)
Pheremones. Mmmmm.

Well or trying to do my ride in air that was pre-swamped for my convenience.

genejockey 07-21-22 12:52 PM


Originally Posted by big john (Post 22582565)
I used to watch "My 600 Pound Life" and will again if it comes back. Sometimes it's fascinating hearing their backstory and hearing what they talk about at psychotherapy, if they go. Many times there has been sexual abuse and a lot of the women say they started on the path to morbid obesity as a coping mechanism and that they thought if they got bigger they would not be so appealing to their abusers.

It's also interesting to see how they react to the doctors orders. A lot of them say the same things, you don't understand me, it's not fair, you don't know my body like I do, the scale is wrong, etc.

The ones who do the best seem to be those who have loving family around who actually help and the ones who fail usually have a militant enabler, especially a parent and usually a mother who just can't let go but sometimes the husbands freak out if the wife starts to lose weight and he will sabotage if he can.

I remember watching a show, years ago, about a guy who weighed well over 1000 lbs. They showed what he'd eat for breakfast, which was something like a pound of bacon with a dozen eggs and a box of cinammon rolls. Maybe even more than that. Honest to god it was like a damn breakfast buffet, but for one guy.

But since he couldn't really get out of bed, family members would come in and cook all that food for him. There is some real pathology going on there that combines physical and mental pathologies and tosses on some hard core enabling on top of that. Between that and "Hoarders", we have stopped watching those shows, because it just starts to feel voyeuristic.

MoAlpha 07-21-22 12:55 PM


Originally Posted by genejockey (Post 22582413)

EDIT: I realize that many don't find those tempting, but really, they're calibrated to hit the areas where I don't think we evolved a "That's Too Much" sensor - fat, starch, sugar, the things our distant ancestors could never get enough of.

Given their evolutionary importance, it's interesting that pure fat and pure CHO are pretty unappetizing, but when you mix them just right you get really reinforcing stuff. There seems to be no innate drive to consume protein, per se! The best theory I've heard for how low carb diets work is by making food just that much less rewarding, the insulin-fat hypothesis notwithstanding. Interestingly also, if you feed animals on either pure fat or pure carbs, they lose weight.

seedsbelize2 07-21-22 01:10 PM


Originally Posted by datlas (Post 22582105)
One of my patients has ADD and has been on the same exact medicine for years and years. Last year, his insurance declined to cover it. I had to spend 10 minutes talking to their "doctor" to convince them to cover it.

They sent a letter a year ago stating it was approved through 2039. Nice!

Now they sent me a letter saying it's NOT covered and if I want to try to get it covered again I have to waste my time talking to their "doctor" again. WTF??

Ask him what color the sky is in his world

seedsbelize2 07-21-22 01:12 PM


Originally Posted by big john (Post 22582139)
I haven't done it, but I've seen it done. I have been known to have a shot of pickle juice once at home.

I sip on pickle juice regularly, at home

seedsbelize2 07-21-22 01:24 PM


Originally Posted by BillyD (Post 22582348)
I feel that way about a lot of places. Sad.

None of that here. We have a homogenous culture.
and homogenous sizing as well. I was in a couple hospitals this morning, getting appointments and was once again amazed by that. A group of men(or women), standing in a circle talking, could each step out of their shoes, move one place to the right or left, and step into those shoes, for a perfect fit. It's really wild the things I notice, and the things that are available to be noticed.

big john 07-21-22 01:24 PM


Originally Posted by genejockey (Post 22582580)
I remember watching a show, years ago, about a guy who weighed well over 1000 lbs. They showed what he'd eat for breakfast, which was something like a pound of bacon with a dozen eggs and a box of cinammon rolls. Maybe even more than that. Honest to god it was like a damn breakfast buffet, but for one guy.

But since he couldn't really get out of bed, family members would come in and cook all that food for him. There is some real pathology going on there that combines physical and mental pathologies and tosses on some hard core enabling on top of that. Between that and "Hoarders", we have stopped watching those shows, because it just starts to feel voyeuristic.

Some of the patients on the show are bed bound but some can get around the house and a few even work. They've had a few in the 1000 pound range but most are 6-700. The doc knows the calories they eat to maintain their weight and they do show them eating before they start the program.

The good thing is when one of them succeeds and is able to resume a more active life, go back to work, go out with friends and family, etc. Just seeing a parent go out and throw a ball around with their kid after being bed bound is amazing. One guy even got his pilots license and started flying after losing 500 pounds. Another was able to go back to driving a big rig and provide for his family. These make me feel warm and fuzzy.

seedsbelize2 07-21-22 01:28 PM


Originally Posted by datlas (Post 22582391)
The nervous system works in mysterious ways? :innocent:

​​​​​​https://findingmastery.net/rachel-zoffness/

seedsbelize2 07-21-22 01:31 PM


Originally Posted by genejockey (Post 22582413)
It is an interesting turn, that in the past, pale skin and a voluptuous figure in women was a sign of wealth, because 1) you didn't have to work outside and 2) you had enough food to overeat, but now it's the opposite - you have enough time and money to exercise outside and to eat healthy. Largely (haha) because calories are cheap now, especially in the most tempting forms - think McDonalds, Doritos and Entenmann's.

EDIT: I realize that many don't find those tempting, but really, they're calibrated to hit the areas where I don't think we evolved a "That's Too Much" sensor - fat, starch, sugar, the things our distant ancestors could never get enough of.

That first part still holds in the developing world, or in the poorer parts of it anyway.

seedsbelize2 07-21-22 01:42 PM


Originally Posted by MoAlpha (Post 22582549)
Yeah, I have thoughts. This is an authoritative and exhaustive review showing that the simplistic hypothesis that low serotonin levels are responsible for depression is nonsense. Most experts already understood this, since it's thinking from the 1970s when shrinks saw the brain as a sort of soup that just needed the right neurotransmitter seasoning. It is still possible that serotonin transmission is involved in depression in some subtle way that researchers don't understand. Psychiatrists are becoming more like neurologists (accused as seeing the brain as a computer, rather than a soup) and focusing on function in individual brain networks. This is yielding rapid advances in areas like deep brain stimulation for OCD and depression, and identifying individual populations of malfunctioning cells. I think it's likely that serotonin may be rediscovered, but at a much more complex and localized level.

A conclusion of the paper is that drugs (SSRIs) advertised as increasing serotonin probably don't work the way they are advertised as working, i.e., by inhibiting the reuptake of serotonin by nerve cells. This is not, however, to say they don't WORK at all, which is what many people have inferred from their non-reading of the paper or accused the authors of saying.

I haven't read the paper, and have no opinion on its findings. But I am fascinated as all get out with brain science. For the last 20 years or so.

seedsbelize2 07-21-22 01:47 PM


Originally Posted by MoAlpha (Post 22582585)
Given their evolutionary importance, it's interesting that pure fat and pure CHO are pretty unappetizing, but when you mix them just right you get really reinforcing stuff. There seems to be no innate drive to consume protein, per se! The best theory I've heard for how low carb diets work is by making food just that much less rewarding, the insulin-fat hypothesis notwithstanding. Interestingly also, if you feed animals on either pure fat or pure carbs, they lose weight.

I was briefly on a high fat/no sugar diet, and shed pounds like it was going out of style.

gnome 07-21-22 01:51 PM


Originally Posted by genejockey (Post 22582518)
One of the most destructive things in mental health is the prevalent belief that people who are depressed, or anxious, or have any number of other related problems "just need to try harder". If you're suffering depression, you already feel worthless. So you try to try harder, and you're still depressed, but now you've also FAILED at getting yourself out of it.

WRT obesity, look at kids in grade school. In first grade, there were already skinny kids, heftier kids, and downright fat kids. I'm pretty sure that it wasn't a moral failing on the part of the last, nor any greater strength of character in the first. So, 40 years down the road, the one who were always skinny telling the ones who were always fat that "they just need to try harder" is simple cruelty.

humans have been good at that for a very, very long time. It's almost as it's a side effect that came with increased intelligence of a comparatively larger brain.

Eric F 07-21-22 02:27 PM


Originally Posted by t2p (Post 22582499)
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5d1a0e8c4.jpeg

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5fad678f7.jpeg


my kids also have old school turntables and speakers ... combo / mix of Bose 201, 301, and Advent Legacy speakers ... and one set homegrown

some of that stuff with them now - but some remains

still have keyboard and some amps and guitars also

I've got a few amps and guitars, too. Along with a big pile of other music stuff I haven't touched in a long time. This pic is from a while ago. There are more bikes now, and the bike space has annexed a bit more of the music space.
https://i.imgur.com/udYboCk.jpg

Bah Humbug 07-21-22 03:43 PM

Ordered a 75Z9J, one of the last. Bike-size chunk of change but I'll probably use it to some degree for ten years. Shipment has to be held for a week and change so it doesn't arrive while we're out of town but looking forward to it like wow.

Mojo31 07-21-22 04:28 PM


Originally Posted by Bah Humbug (Post 22582790)
Ordered a 75Z9J, one of the last. Bike-size chunk of change but I'll probably use it to some degree for ten years. Shipment has to be held for a week and change so it doesn't arrive while we're out of town but looking forward to it like wow.

Sweet! You will like it.

I'll be in Austin this weekend. Bummer I can't check it out.

Bah Humbug 07-21-22 05:46 PM


Originally Posted by Mojo31 (Post 22582850)
Sweet! You will like it.

I'll be in Austin this weekend. Bummer I can't check it out.

Do let me know if you manage to get to the Veloway! Interested what you think of it. Funny you're arriving as I'm leaving - don't take it personally! :innocent:

Mojo31 07-21-22 05:53 PM


Originally Posted by Bah Humbug (Post 22582940)
Do let me know if you manage to get to the Veloway! Interested what you think of it. Funny you're arriving as I'm leaving - don't take it personally! :innocent:

I'm offended, for sure. But, I wasn't planning to ask you to meet up with me. It's not personal! :innocent::D

We are driving down Sat morning with our son for a wedding shower that starts at 4:00. We need to be back Sunday by 3:00 so quick trip. I promised to help my daughter with some things at her house Sunday morning. Tight schedule with no time to bike or twist off. One day our paths will cross.

Bah Humbug 07-21-22 06:28 PM

I did of course spend weeks hand-wringing but eventually decided I like the 10-year-old Sony in front of the trainer (bought when I moved to Austin) and hope to get a decade out of this as well. Will be keeping the box for the still-hoped-for move to CO. And it's cheaper than a nice road bike these days.


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