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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

swampyankee2 03-29-22 11:35 AM


Originally Posted by 52telecaster (Post 22450578)
Lower end tektro dual pivots work very well. The ones without a quick release are pretty cheap.

I found a set clean set of Dia-Comps with quick releases, along with a set of Weimann drilled levers with hoods and cables as well. The Dia-Comps are for the Robin Hood Lenton sports along with a set of Weimann non-drilled levers with suicide levers from my Dawes Galaxy. The drilled set are for the Galaxy.

swampyankee2 03-29-22 11:38 AM


Originally Posted by drasp (Post 22454796)
I haven't posted in ages - haven't owned a Raleigh since selling my '51 in a million years ago, but I do enjoy seeing updates to this thread from time to time. This one sort of fell in my lap this morning and I can't quite figure out what it is! Guessing late '70s Sports/DL22, but some items seem to date earlier. . .figured someone here would be able to make sense of it! I put the grips on from my personal stash. Had quite a few things I couldn't leave alone, so removed a bottle cage, plastic light mount, makeshift bar tape grips & some old Cristophe clips. Left the SR touring pedals, I don't mind them. Pump seems original (Made in England on the plastic insert). Saddle & bag feel/look quite old, so hard to imagine they're modern, but do they look mid/late '70s like the bicycle? Hmm. . . also, lots of little things like the "Ti" on the top tube decal, shouldn't be there pre '78, right? But then the seat post tube should have a different decal, fender shouldn't be white, and should have the big clunky reflector.

Looks like a real time machine, whatever the year!

gster 03-29-22 12:11 PM


Originally Posted by drasp (Post 22454796)
I haven't posted in ages - haven't owned a Raleigh since selling my '51 in a million years ago, but I do enjoy seeing updates to this thread from time to time. This one sort of fell in my lap this morning and I can't quite figure out what it is! Guessing late '70s Sports/DL22, but some items seem to date earlier. . .figured someone here would be able to make sense of it! I put the grips on from my personal stash. Had quite a few things I couldn't leave alone, so removed a bottle cage, plastic light mount, makeshift bar tape grips & some old Cristophe clips. Left the SR touring pedals, I don't mind them. Pump seems original (Made in England on the plastic insert). Saddle & bag feel/look quite old, so hard to imagine they're modern, but do they look mid/late '70s like the bicycle? Hmm. . . also, lots of little things like the "Ti" on the top tube decal, shouldn't be there pre '78, right? But then the seat post tube should have a different decal, fender shouldn't be white, and should have the big clunky reflector.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fb9e383617.jpg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c217d9911.jpeg

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c355015f6.jpeg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5fb26ab42.jpeg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...144b50429.jpeg

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...094a5049f.jpeg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...835f40136.jpeg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2512d31aa.jpeg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6582e090e.jpeg

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2c97ecf29.jpeg

Agree that the calipers are old. Are there eyes stamped on the heron chainring? I can't tell. That would date it 1961 or older.

drasp 03-29-22 01:54 PM

Yes, has eyes on the chain ring. But do the lugs match the early '60s shape/etc? Possible it got repainted & decals done in the late '70s, but is an early '60s bike? So weird. And both the Sturmey Archer hub & shfiter seem to be '80s, but the rear rim seems to match the age of the fron - which has an old oiler hub. . .and so on.

cudak888 03-29-22 02:34 PM

I want to say that's one of those not-really-cataloged base-model "S22" Sports that came in that characteristic gold color - but those generally had Raleigh's forward-slanted chainguard instead of the conventional hockey stick (hockey sticks were used on the similar gold models under the secondary brands, e.g., Triumph and Robin Hood). These were also equipped with conventional pinch-bolt brakes unlike what's seen here.

I believe the gold S22 variants started in '67 and ended in 72. However, I'm seeing 1973+ decals on the downtube and chainguard - but the closeups of all the decals shown so far indicate these aren't decals, they're replacement stickers. Additionally, the Heron replacement fork decals and the tubing decal on the seattube are incorrect for any '73, but correct for an S22.

My bet is that this bike was put together by someone who understood the bike enough to parts-build one, and chose this replacement decal set because it was what they could get. What date is on the hub? I notice the rims are the correct, box-section Endricks.

-Kurt

gster 03-29-22 03:34 PM

Nice bike but not the price..
A recent Kijiji listing here in Toronto
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...470d8e161c.jpg
A Raleigh built Supercycle.
.....$750!!

gster 03-29-22 06:40 PM


Originally Posted by drasp (Post 22455068)
Yes, has eyes on the chain ring. But do the lugs match the early '60s shape/etc? Possible it got repainted & decals done in the late '70s, but is an early '60s bike? So weird. And both the Sturmey Archer hub & shfiter seem to be '80s, but the rear rim seems to match the age of the fron - which has an old oiler hub. . .and so on.

You may have a classic "Bitsa" bike...
Bits of this and bits of that.
I've got several that I've assembled over the years.

thumpism 03-29-22 09:21 PM

This probably belongs in the Wacky thread but I thought it was more important to be posted here. Looks like someone with a spray can converted a ladies' loop-frame Raleigh Tourist into a trike. Naaaa, couldn't happen.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...39040031594379

https://scontent.fric1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...cA&oe=62482173

SirMike1983 04-01-22 07:08 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 22451139)
I think more and more people are discovering American-made "English-style" bikes. The American brands offered some different variations on the diamond frame, English-style utility bike. Schwinn was not alone in offering such bikes.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-w5rcHyWF0...ield%2B003.JPG

Columbia/Westfield made utility type bikes going way, way back. Prior to the late 1930s, they were of the "antique" style. They offered diamond frame models, WW1 military and courier type models with double top bars, and a number of other frames in the early 20th century. These generally were single speed coaster brake models, the US bicycle market preferring that style.

The earliest "modern" Westfield/Columbia utility bikes that are in the English-style and not as much in the antique style appeared in the late 1930s. The main models were the Sports Tourist and Sports Roadster.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FwEqnbE5y...1.15%2B009.JPG

The Sports Tourist could come with hand brakes and a three speed Sturmey Archer hub, but also could come as a single speed. The Sports Roadster usually appeared as a single speed coaster brake (though sometimes with an English front brake as well). I owned a Sports Roadster from 1940, and it was a good bike - on a par with a Raleigh, Schwinn, or Hercules from that era. It had a New Departure Model D coaster brake and a Philco English front add-on brake. It was an amalgam of English and American elements.

They produced bikes through WWII, having government approval to make utilitarian, English-style bikes for use during the war (in addition to their heavier WW2 military balloon tire models). You sometimes will still find these as single-speed coaster brake bikes with no or less than normal plating (painted parts substituting for plated ones during the second war). A folding bike with 26 inch wheels also was part of the utility family during the 1940s, an interesting concept, known as the "Compax".

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-b-812ICF_...1.15%2B014.JPG

During the 1950s, Columbia/Westfield continued to make very good three speed bikes, roughly on a par with the base and mid-level Schwinn and Raleigh offerings of the same period. The bikes continued to combine English and American design features. Again, 3-speed Sturmey and single speed coaster options were available, depending on what you wanted, the supply resuming after the war.

By the 1960s some rather strong cost-cutting measures set in at Columbia/Westfield on their utility bikes. Cost-cutting seems to have hit harder and faster at Columbia/Westfield than it did at Schwinn or Raleigh (though they too were cost-cutting over the course of the 1960s). Into the 1970s Columbia/Westfield bikes began using Shimano type hubs, thinner metal fenders than previously, and more plastic parts than earlier bikes. They had fallen below Schwinn and Raleigh in terms of quality by this point, but all of those brands continued to cheapen things here and there.

This is not to say the later Columbia/Westfield bikes are "bad", but it is to say care should be taken to inspect the bike and parts, and it may need some extra work and replacement parts to bring back (depending on how it was kept, of course). The most collectible bikes are the older ones from before WW2, and somewhat into the 1950s, though it's the early stuff from before and during WW2 that collectors usually want.

A Westfield Sports Roadster from 1940:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XbLb1TxH2...220_155139.jpg


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...14f82215f8.jpg

An example of a 1950s Columbia 3-speed with Dynohub. The 1950s era bikes had unique Y-shaped chain and seat stays.

cudak888 04-01-22 07:36 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 22457986)
An example of a 1950s Columbia 3-speed with Dynohub. The 1950s era bikes had unique Y-shaped chain and seat stays.

They kept that going on the 1960's middleweights too. Seems to have been phased out fairly quickly on the diamond frames.

-Kurt

swampyankee2 04-01-22 08:17 PM


Originally Posted by cudak888 (Post 22458022)
They kept that going on the 1960's middleweights too. Seems to have been phased out fairly quickly on the diamond frames.

-Kurt

for the discerning Columbia enthusiast, this one claims to be a 50s vintage but I suspect its somewhat newer. Pretty reasonable. And close by me.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...0349542208029/

SirMike1983 04-01-22 09:28 PM


Originally Posted by swampyankee2 (Post 22458926)
for the discerning Columbia enthusiast, this one claims to be a 50s vintage but I suspect its somewhat newer. Pretty reasonable. And close by me.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...0349542208029/

I agree - that looks later to me. More like 60s era probably.

gster 04-02-22 08:35 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 22457986)
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...14f82215f8.jpg

An example of a 1950s Columbia 3-speed with Dynohub. The 1950s era bikes had unique Y-shaped chain and seat stays.

It's odd that the catalogue shows the Dynohub on the wrong side....

gster 04-02-22 09:39 AM


Originally Posted by brianhamp (Post 22459266)
Is it though?? When the Dyno is on the rear hub it is on that side....

Hmmmm.....?
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ce7dbaf4bd.jpg
The Dynohub works in either direction but the front wheel adjustable cone needs to be on the non-drive side. This goes for normal hubs as well.
I found a few of my bikes were set up wrong last year and flipped the wheels around.

nlerner 04-02-22 01:32 PM

My '49 Clubman has the dyno hub on the non-drive side, as well as the lamp as it was made for the US market:
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...31f5557253.jpg

nlerner 04-02-22 02:23 PM


Originally Posted by brianhamp (Post 22459462)
Maybe it is a 1949 thing??

More of a driving on the right-hand side of the road in the US thing.

bikamper 04-02-22 05:26 PM

I bought my 68 Superbe 15 years ago and the Dynohub was mounted to the left. It still is.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...7fc90ce4_z.jpg

Whitecoyote 04-02-22 06:14 PM

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a098dcc506.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...92a56d2b17.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...852277c891.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d184d3d2a0.jpg

clubman 04-02-22 06:22 PM

Whitecoyote Holy mint-cherry-fabulous 70's Sports with original Dunlops!!!!!

1973-ish?

Whitecoyote 04-02-22 06:28 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 22459659)
Whitecoyote Holy mint-cherry-fabulous 70's Sports with original Dunlops!!!!!

1973-ish?

I gave it to my brother-in-law. He said he thinks 1970.

clubman 04-02-22 06:47 PM

Bet'cha a beer it's a '73...the hub should be dated. Doesn't matter, nice gift.

cudak888 04-02-22 11:15 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 22459285)
Hmmmm.....?

The Dynohub works in either direction but the front wheel adjustable cone needs to be on the non-drive side. This goes for normal hubs as well.
I found a few of my bikes were set up wrong last year and flipped the wheels around.

I believe part of this confusion comes from the fact that the "adjusting cone" changed after April 1952, when the Stumey GH6 was redesigned from having a Bakelite armature cover to the more common chromed steel one. To quote the Sturmey-Archer service literature, the "[h]ubs supplied before April 1952 had the adjusting cone on the dynamo side of the hub," and was reversed post-April 1952.

For the earlier pre-April 1952 Bakelite-faced hubs, the manual instructs technicians to snug up the left side (small flange side) adjuster cone (LB358Z) against the unthreaded shoulder of the axle (I like to add some Loctite)
For the later post-April 1952 steel-faced hubs, the manual instructs technicians to snug up the right side (dynamo side) adjuster cone (LB357AZ) against the unthreaded shoulder of the axle (again, add Loctite).

Since these instructions lock down a specific cone at a fixed position on the axle, then the opposite end, of course, becomes the side where adjustment takes place.

So does that mean anything in regards to orientation? No. Let's understand what's physically going on in both hubs:

On the earlier hubs: Since the left side cone is locked down, the right (dynamo) side cone needs to be the point of adjustment. The right side cone sits behind the armature, so Sturmey designed the cone with an extended pair of flats that extend through the armature and slot into a notched washer with corresponding flats. This notched washer and cone sandwich the armature, and - importantly - the notched washer transmits any rotation made to it onto the cone. Thus, this setup allows for dynamo-side bearing adjustments and - to an extent - puts pressure on the Bakelite face of the armature to keep it soft-locked to the axle. A spacer washer and locknut on top of this notched washer keep the adjustable cone from moving once a mechanic has adjusted it.

Even though the cone on the small-flange side is locked in place on the axle, a similar spacer washer (without any indexing or tabbing) and locknut are also provided to keep it from going anywhere.

On the later hubs: Someone at Sturmey eventually realized the earlier setup was needlessly overcomplicated. They decided the dynamo side cone would be best if locked down in place, eliminating any fiddling on that side. However, instead of redesigning the cone, they left the same one as the older models and capped it with a cylinder-shaped spacer (GL623) in place of the notched washer. Like the washer before it, this spacer does puts the necessary pressure on the armature face to hold it soft-locked to the axle, but - being a smooth cylinder and larger than the cone's flats - it simply sits around the cone and cannot affect its adjustment at all. A spacer washer and locknut on top of this cylinder keep it from moving.

Meanwhile, on the small flange end, a completely "normal" Sturmey cone setup is used, like an AW: Adjustable cone with square head, twin-tab notched washer (the kind that locks the square head of the adjustable cone) and a locknut. All bearing adjustments are done here. One may argue this is a much simpler, and - perhaps - intuitive design.

And I hear you: "This still doesn't answer the question of why one GH6 should be installed in a specific direction."

Correct...but notice that, regardless of the variant, both versions of GH6 dynohub are fitted with locknuts on both sides of the hub. This is in contrast to the conventional Raleigh front hubs designed with no locknuts; just one locked-down cone and one adjustable cone. Because of the rotational forces of the bearings which could help tighten the cone in use, a conventional Raleigh hub must be installed in an orientation where the rotational force of the bearings help to unscrew the cone, pushing it against the dropout where it can't move.

The GH6, by virtue of having locknuts on both sides - regardless of which era/variant it is - doesn't have this limitation. It works no different than a modern hub. Cone-washer-locknut on both sides. That's it.

As such, there is no physical limitation as to which direction you "should" install any Sturmey-Archer GH6. It does not matter.

Just because Columbia did it backwards to Raleigh (or if some assembler just got it wrong on the bike that was used as a guide for the artist who airbrushed the catalog picture) doesn't matter one bit for operational sake. At all. Also, Raleigh didn't have any hard-and-fast rule about this either:

1951 Raleigh catalog: Lenton Sports w/RH dynohub (pre '52 Bakelite)
1954 Raleigh catalog: Sports Light Roadster w/LH dynohub (post '52 steel)
1956 Raleigh catalog: Trent Tourist w/RH dynohub (post '52 steel)
1962 Raleigh catalog: Superbe w/RH dynohub (post '52 steel)

GH6 parts breakdown for reference:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bad2482dcb.jpg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7455c215e7.jpg


-Kurt

cudak888 04-02-22 11:18 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 22459686)
Bet'cha a beer it's a '73...the hub should be dated. Doesn't matter, nice gift.

Ditto. Only year for that black and that decal set.

-Kurt

thumpism 04-03-22 05:20 AM

Never seen a 3-speed Hiawatha but here's one for a C-note.

https://richmond.craigslist.org/bik/...466079308.html

https://images.craigslist.org/00c0c_...CI_600x450.jpg

https://images.craigslist.org/01515_...CI_600x450.jpg

vintagebicycle 04-03-22 05:31 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 22458974)
I agree - that looks later to me. More like 60s era probably.

Its no earlier than 1971 with that BIA sticker on the top of the seat tube.

Back in 1977 I bought one identical to that one used off a local bike shop, its rear hub was dated 4/74.
I rode it for years, after 20 years or so of hard use as my main transportation during my teen years it finally needed new rim, and I had to re-braze both rear dropouts as they had loosened in the frame.
It lived on for another 12 or so years with a pair of Araya rims, some SS spokes, and a rattle can touch up job on the rear dropouts. I upgraded the brakes to a set of Tourney C/P calipers early on after getting tired of dealing with side pull brakes that kept coming loose and dragging.
I'd likely still have it but when I moved in the early 00's, I cut down on my fleet substantially and it was one that happened to find a new home then. If I was closer to the one listed on FB, I'd grab it up in a second because its identical my old one down to the rack and headlight.


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