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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

Dante41 12-12-20 04:05 AM


Originally Posted by cudak888 (Post 21820480)
Keep looking - I've seen them before. Those bright NOS rear stays for 22" frames on eBay - the ones from Greece - are not the only ones that have come to market in the past.

-Kurt

That's good to know! I remember those stays from back when I crashed way back when; I'm honestly not that surprised that nobody has needed them yet. They seem like they'd be a very esoteric buy.

I am surprised that nobody has bought the complete 22 inch NOS frame in those three years, though. Way overpriced or no.

Dante41 12-12-20 04:16 AM

Speaking of eBay, I while doing a few searches I just found something really interesting: a Dunelt Roadster!https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9c2bbf4b40.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...cfb9758dce.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4495fde047.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0982ebb712.jpg

It needs a complete overhaul, of course, and a new chain guard, but still. Dunelt roadsters seem to be even more uncommon than Raleigh DL-1s.

dbhouston 12-12-20 01:00 PM

This guy is convinced he's got a 1936 Raleigh folding bike, and showing him 1970's catalog pages didn't help. Hope nobody falls for it.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...7823213647372/
https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net...79&oe=5FF9FB99

rustymetal 12-12-20 09:51 PM


Originally Posted by dbhouston (Post 21829640)
This guy is convinced he's got a 1936 Raleigh folding bike, and showing him 1970's catalog pages didn't help. Hope nobody falls for it.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...7823213647372/
https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net...79&oe=5FF9FB99

Look at the seller's profile pic and other item it'll explain it all.
Also, maybe its not a bike he's really selling.

cudak888 12-12-20 10:51 PM


Originally Posted by dbhouston (Post 21829640)
This guy is convinced he's got a 1936 Raleigh folding bike, and showing him 1970's catalog pages didn't help. Hope nobody falls for it.

Reported for inaccurate description.

-Kurt

Dante41 12-13-20 02:34 AM

Dangit, I shouldn't have done those searches; now I'm tempted to buy that Dunelt myself! :lol:

JaccoW 12-13-20 08:12 AM

Here is my 3-speed to 5-speed conversion of a 1976 Gazelle Grand Tourist.

There is some modernization going on here, with new rims and a dynohub being the main ones, but as always I try to keep things in the spirit of the original bike.
Project log here.

http://i.imgur.com/Oj4Ywylh.jpg

arex 12-13-20 03:54 PM

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e1e5efdf1a.png

clubman 12-13-20 04:07 PM


Originally Posted by rustymetal (Post 21830215)
Look at the seller's profile pic and other item it'll explain it all.
Also, maybe its not a bike he's really selling.

He's also got a grow light for sale with an exhaust vent for cultivating deadly bud that makes you stoopid.
edit...oh yeah, you mentioned that.

2fat2fly 12-14-20 06:20 AM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 21823978)
2fat2fly From your list and given your local experience, the second Hercules you quote would be my bet based on the description you give. And its the cheapest.....

After a week and a lot of looking around I'm still looking. I emailed each of the ads on the original list, only the guy with the Hercules on Philly CL replied, and three others were all sold. One never responded.
There's plenty of woman's frame bikes and bikes that look like they've lived outdoors for the past 40 or so years for less but to me a bike like that is parts at best. I did go to look at a pair of Raleigh Sports, both were advertised as 1969 models for $400 for the pair, the men's model was a bit rough with lots of pitted chrome and a rusty chain, the ladies model however was minty clean. I asked if he'd do $250 for the pair, he said no way but he would consider $325 cash if I came and got them that day. It wasn't super far away so I made the drive, when I got there the men's model was gone, only the ladies bike was still for sale, (He told me he wouldn't separate them a few days earlier). He now wanted $250 for just the ladies bike and they had swapped out the front wheels, leaving the remaining bike with mismatched wheels, one nice and clean, the other rusty with a flat spot and a rotten gumwall tire on it.
I offered him $100, and thought I was being generous, thinking that at least it would give me a nice rear wheel, good bars and a decent saddle if I bought a cheaper bike. The seller wouldn't budge off $250 so I left it. By the time I got home, he had removed the ad.
I wasted the afternoon and a half tank of gas in my truck and came home empty handed.

There's another Hercules listed over the weekend on CL about a hour away that looks pretty clean, it'll likely need tires and a re-lube but it looks clean otherwise. It looks a lot like the one that's on Philly CL but not quite as perfect for $250.
There's an older Raleigh Sports, hub marked 8-61, that has mismatched fenders and a wrong color chainguard. The bike is brown, the fenders are black, and the chain guard is green. Its got two minty looking wheels, perfect chrome, and the seller says it was just built with all new lube and two new tires about a year ago. A paint job and decals would make it perfect. The seller wants $250 for it, down from the $400 price tag he has on it. There's another one, a 27" Sprite that someone built up a set of chrome steel wheels with an AW hub for, the wheels look fresh, the tires are brand new black sided 27x1 3/8" Michelin World Tour. The bike is brown with okay paint. Its a bit larger than the others but doable but certainly not original. He has two of them, a brown one and a red one, the red Sprite is newer with the automatic adjusting levers and flat top fenders. Both have steel wheels with AW hubs, the earlier model, likely a 1971 or so, is $220, the red one is nicer and likely late 70's for $150, but the wheels are older with some pitting on the chrome. The paint is nice, a bright candy red color. If I knew where to find a pair of 32-40 spoke chrome steel 27" rims I'd buy that one and have the rims swapped over. Its not a "Sports" though and both are a bit on the large side.

2fat2fly 12-14-20 06:31 AM


Originally Posted by Johno59 (Post 21824701)
A professional quality paint job costs a lot of money in the UK - easily $500 so if you can do it yourself go for it. Decals - even water based ones - are available period correct. Robin Hoods were the cheaper version put out by Raleigh so your seller has got it ass-about. Tires,pads, etc are of no period value. A good second hand Brooks saddle and rims are expensive.
The Sports would have been the better bike, followed by the Herc's but they are all Raleigh bikes slowly going broke by the 1970s. I can't believe all these bikes fit your size! Narrow down the ones that fit your body shape and remember the older bike the better the construction. , especially if you can paint.
Have fun!

A repaint doesn't scare me none, it may be the only way to own a really clean looking older model. Everything I'm finding is just plain rough. Its the decals options that I'm concerned about. Those bikes don't look like they were originally clear coated or extremely glossy, if I go with water slide decals, then clear over them, the finish will look 'better' than new. Not the look I want.
The box pinstriping on the early models looks like it'll be the hardest to replicate, especially on the fenders. I suppose the factory had some sort of mask or pattern they 'traced' to do the original lines. That's fairly easy to make for the straight frame tubes but may be tough on the fenders.
Was the original paint enamel or lacquer? They look to have been 'tank dipped' not sprayed too. I'm not sure how they went about doing so without a bunch of runs all over but most are painted inside and out from what I can tell. A few I've looked at did have small paint drips here and there, mostly in places like the bottom of a lug or bottom of the BB shell. It makes me think the paint was likely a lacquer, a thin lacquer bath would coat very thin, have few runs and dry fast enough to do multiple coats. That's something you just can't duplicate at home though.

markk900 12-14-20 08:55 AM

2fat2fly I would not worry about the decals etc....most of the models you are looking at are well supported for new decals. And given what you want it won't be hard to get thin vinyl decals so you don't have to over finish it (clear coat) if you really don't want to.

Here's a progression sequence of my 1949 Humber. It was awful looking when I first got it (for under $100 CAD) and other than labour and the purchase of the only new Brooks I even owned, plus new tires.....it turned out OK. Painted it with Rustoleum in a colour that matched the finish of the original; decals in this case from Thailand look great - no clear coat.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1e2bf3af75.jpg
Detail of condition when I brought it home
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5561fcea94.jpg
Detail #2 after I brought it home
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0856a9d93e.jpg
After basic cleanup but nothing else.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c37a49f612.jpg
After full cleanup plus decals from Thailand

cszipper 12-14-20 09:01 AM


Originally Posted by 2fat2fly (Post 21831746)
After a week and a lot of looking around I'm still looking. I emailed each of the ads on the original list, only the guy with the Hercules on Philly CL replied, and three others were all sold. One never responded.

Depending on where you are in NJ, you might try Whippany Cycle (https://www.whippanycycle.com/). They usually have a couple of refurbished three speeds for sale, and sometimes others that need work. The two fellows who work there have been around long enough that they know how to work on them, and have a selection of new and used parts.

-Carl

Johno59 12-14-20 09:32 AM

Chrome Wheels
 

Originally Posted by 2fat2fly (Post 21831746)
After a week and a lot of looking around I'm still looking. I emailed each of the ads on the original list, only the guy with the Hercules on Philly CL replied, and three others were all sold. One never responded.
There's plenty of woman's frame bikes and bikes that look like they've lived outdoors for the past 40 or so years for less but to me a bike like that is parts at best. I did go to look at a pair of Raleigh Sports, both were advertised as 1969 models for $400 for the pair, the men's model was a bit rough with lots of pitted chrome and a rusty chain, the ladies model however was minty clean. I asked if he'd do $250 for the pair, he said no way but he would consider $325 cash if I came and got them that day. It wasn't super far away so I made the drive, when I got there the men's model was gone, only the ladies bike was still for sale, (He told me he wouldn't separate them a few days earlier). He now wanted $250 for just the ladies bike and they had swapped out the front wheels, leaving the remaining bike with mismatched wheels, one nice and clean, the other rusty with a flat spot and a rotten gumwall tire on it.
I offered him $100, and thought I was being generous, thinking that at least it would give me a nice rear wheel, good bars and a decent saddle if I bought a cheaper bike. The seller wouldn't budge off $250 so I left it. By the time I got home, he had removed the ad.
I wasted the afternoon and a half tank of gas in my truck and came home empty handed.

There's another Hercules listed over the weekend on CL about a hour away that looks pretty clean, it'll likely need tires and a re-lube but it looks clean otherwise. It looks a lot like the one that's on Philly CL but not quite as perfect for $250.
There's an older Raleigh Sports, hub marked 8-61, that has mismatched fenders and a wrong color chainguard. The bike is brown, the fenders are black, and the chain guard is green. Its got two minty looking wheels, perfect chrome, and the seller says it was just built with all new lube and two new tires about a year ago. A paint job and decals would make it perfect. The seller wants $250 for it, down from the $400 price tag he has on it. There's another one, a 27" Sprite that someone built up a set of chrome steel wheels with an AW hub for, the wheels look fresh, the tires are brand new black sided 27x1 3/8" Michelin World Tour. The bike is brown with okay paint. Its a bit larger than the others but doable but certainly not original. He has two of them, a brown one and a red one, the red Sprite is newer with the automatic adjusting levers and flat top fenders. Both have steel wheels with AW hubs, the earlier model, likely a 1971 or so, is $220, the red one is nicer and likely late 70's for $150, but the wheels are older with some pitting on the chrome. The paint is nice, a bright candy red color. If I knew where to find a pair of 32-40 spoke chrome steel 27" rims I'd buy that one and have the rims swapped over. Its not a "Sports" though and both are a bit on the large side.

Brand new chrome wheels are dirt cheap - both for cable or rod brakes. They are made in India or China by the tens of millions. It s the stainless steel ones that are expensive - NOS only as far as I know.

Johno59 12-14-20 09:45 AM

Decals
 

Originally Posted by 2fat2fly (Post 21831757)
A repaint doesn't scare me none, it may be the only way to own a really clean looking older model. Everything I'm finding is just plain rough. Its the decals options that I'm concerned about. Those bikes don't look like they were originally clear coated or extremely glossy, if I go with water slide decals, then clear over them, the finish will look 'better' than new. Not the look I want.
The box pinstriping on the early models looks like it'll be the hardest to replicate, especially on the fenders. I suppose the factory had some sort of mask or pattern they 'traced' to do the original lines. That's fairly easy to make for the straight frame tubes but may be tough on the fenders.
Was the original paint enamel or lacquer? They look to have been 'tank dipped' not sprayed too. I'm not sure how they went about doing so without a bunch of runs all over but most are painted inside and out from what I can tell. A few I've looked at did have small paint drips here and there, mostly in places like the bottom of a lug or bottom of the BB shell. It makes me think the paint was likely a lacquer, a thin lacquer bath would coat very thin, have few runs and dry fast enough to do multiple coats. That's something you just can't duplicate at home though.

Go here- Vintage & Bespoke Bicycle Decals/Transfers – H Lloyd Cycles (myshopify.com)
They have every decal imaginable for review. Some even are water transfer if you want to go the full puritan route. I've used both but the difference is difficult to ascertain. The exception is the water-based react badly to some modern wax/paint/clear coat. They ship anywhere for the price of a Xmas card in postage.
Raleigh's were treated with an anti-rust solution and then dip coated.
See here for the entire process including the painting.
.
Good luck!

vintagebicycle 12-14-20 10:21 AM


Originally Posted by cszipper (Post 21831942)
Depending on where you are in NJ, you might try Whippany Cycle (https://www.whippanycycle.com/). They usually have a couple of refurbished three speeds for sale, and sometimes others that need work. The two fellows who work there have been around long enough that they know how to work on them, and have a selection of new and used parts.

-Carl

With all this covid mes still going on, you probably will want to call ahead before driving any distance to a bike shop, most that I've run across are either still doing drop off only and showing any bikes by appointment only. Many are nearly completely devoid of inventory after being swamped over the summer. It seems the closer to NYC or Philly you get the worse it is.
Then you have the shops that don't want to be bothered with old bikes, they don't want to mess with them at all. Many here won't even fix flats. Your lucky if they stock tires and tubes or a few saddles or accessories. They have plenty of shirts, helmets, jackets, shoes, etc though. I drove all over last summer trying to find a set of spokes to build a wheel I needed and not a single shop stocked spokes, one could cut and thread them but they wanted more than $2 per spoke and they said I had to order them up front, and come back and get them when they were done. I gave up and ordered a box off fleabay. Not a single shop had a matching pair of 700cx25 tires in black that weren't $50 each, again, I ended up buying tires online too. Three weeks later I got to build the wheel and mount up the new tires. 40 years ago I'd have had a dozen shops to choose from, all with parts in stock and dozens of tires to choose from, if not they'd have it overnight for me. No any more.

markk900 12-14-20 10:23 AM

Johno59 Thanks for posting that video - had seen it before but it really shows the process - 2fat2fly : at the 7:00 minute mark you will see the answer to your question about how the original finish is applied.

vintagebicycle 12-14-20 10:26 AM


Originally Posted by Johno59 (Post 21832003)
Brand new chrome wheels are dirt cheap - both for cable or rod brakes. They are made in India or China by the tens of millions. It s the stainless steel ones that are expensive - NOS only as far as I know.

That sounds great but who sells them? If I could find new chrome steel Raleigh Westrick or Dunlop Endrick rims in 32/40h affordably, I'd buy a dozen to keep on hand. Rims are the single hardest thing to come by these days. I can fix bad paint, buy decals, and just about all else but rims were pretty much limited to either running what ever you could find, with or without good chrome, or converting to Sun CR18 alloy rims, which now seem also be gone.

Johno59 12-14-20 11:14 AM

Chrome Rims
 

Originally Posted by vintagebicycle (Post 21832113)
That sounds great but who sells them? If I could find new chrome steel Raleigh Westrick or Dunlop Endrick rims in 32/40h affordably, I'd buy a dozen to keep on hand. Rims are the single hardest thing to come by these days. I can fix bad paint, buy decals, and just about all else but rims were pretty much limited to either running what ever you could find, with or without good chrome, or converting to Sun CR18 alloy rims, which now seem also be gone.

Bankrupt Bike Parts have them new, all sizes, for rod and calipers. I've bought stuff from them for many years and no problems.

bluesteak 12-14-20 07:10 PM

Sa s5
 
I was bidding on a S5 on eBay. I dropped out because the bell crank wasn’t with it. What are the prospects for using a Shimano bell crank on an S5 or jury rigging something else?

jackbombay 12-14-20 07:21 PM


Originally Posted by bluesteak (Post 21832993)
I was bidding on a S5 on eBay. I dropped out because the bell crank wasn’t with it. What are the prospects for using a Shimano bell crank on an S5 or jury rigging something else?

Shimano bell crank works! You drill it first with a 3/8" drill bit, then you can use an old sturmey axle to "Tap" it by grinding some "cutting faces" into the threads, I've made 2 of them.

Or, I believe this guy sells them already tapped for sturmey axles, https://bikesmithdesign.com/send him an email to confirm.

vintagebicycle 12-15-20 12:07 PM


Originally Posted by Johno59 (Post 21832200)
Bankrupt Bike Parts have them new, all sizes, for rod and calipers. I've bought stuff from them for many years and no problems.

I just checked out that link, I didn't see any 32/40h Endrick rims, just 36h.
I can buy chrome 36h anywhere over here, plus I've got them in Araya and a slightly wider version made in Italy.
I've also got Rigida 26x1 1/4" hoops in 36h.

The problem is finding rust free replacements for bikes made in the 60's and 70's that came with the Dunlop or Sturmey Archer Endrick rims and the same era Westrick rims for the Raleigh Sports models in that same era. These bikes make up the bulk of what's found these days and finding them with decent rims or chrome anything is rare. I also suppose its worse for us who are within driving distance to the shore.

I looked at four bikes myself over the past few weeks and every one of them had rusty or bent rims. I was looking at one bike that was for sale on CL on Sun, as I was talking to the seller a couple rode by on a pair of old Schwinn three speed bikes, all four tires looked like they had about 20 psi in them under two riders well over 300 lbs.
It really explains why the rims we find are in such bad shape
I didn't buy the bike that was for sale but the seller did give me a ladies Sports with a pair of CR18 rims in 32/40 laced to a 1969 5 speed S5 hub. The rest of the bike is trash, and the spokes rusted beyond use but the hub and rims are in good shape. The bike is a mismatch of parts, the frame is later in black, the saddle was one of those Cloud 9 cruiser saddles that had lost most of its Lycra covering, the handle bars were solid rust, the twin trigger shifters were both rusted and seized, and it had two badly blistered gumwall tires on it.

I tossed it in the truck and left, when I got home I salvaged what I could, keeping the rims, hubs, frame and fork, and crankset. The rest is just rusted junk.
I highly doubt I'd ever put alloy rims on any of my own bikes but I may have a project in mind that could use them.
I opened up the hub for a good cleaning and re-lube before tossing the rusty spokes too.
It was using a Shimano belcrank.

The worst part was that the parts bike he gave me for free wasn't much worse off than the one he was selling for $200.

oldspokes 12-15-20 04:48 PM


Originally Posted by bluesteak (Post 21832993)
I was bidding on a S5 on eBay. I dropped out because the bell crank wasn’t with it. What are the prospects for using a Shimano bell crank on an S5 or jury rigging something else?

The Shimano bell crank works great. Just about every one I've had has had one installed.

2fat2fly 12-15-20 05:20 PM

I looked all over and can't find a source for 32/40 Endrick style rims for the old English bikes. I can buy cheap steel universal rims in 36h but nothing that's even close to a match to the original rims.

I've never seen stainless rims, what did they come on?

So far, every bike under $200 that I've looked at has had bad rims, either rust pitted or with severe brake wear. Nothing even close to presentable. I have a Robin Hood to go see either Sat. or Sun. The owner says its "1960's" but that's all I got from him. He swears the rims are original and perfect, but the paint is dull and its got no decals left on it. He swears they fell off over time.
He's asking $500 obo. Before I even see it, my best offer won't be over $300 judging by his description.

From what I see, the original rims are a bit narrower than most generic replacements I see. The Japanese wheels were narrower, the Italian wheels were wider, and the French wheels were shallower, with a flatter profile. I haven't seen many that match the original Dunlop or Sturmey Archer profile exactly. I would have thought that after all this time someone would have started to reproduce these rims. The price these sell for certainly tells me there's still a market for these bikes and their parts.

Fusilier55 12-15-20 08:33 PM

Nice looking bike!


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