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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

Captain Blight 12-26-11 11:23 AM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 13640815)
I haven't done much booting (any? perhaps not), so I couldn't say anything about minimum boot requirements, such a the minimum hole that needs a boot, or the minimum size of a boot. Seems to me you want to provide a barrier that prevents the tube from "herniating" out through the hole in the casing under high pressure, and to limit the effects of any carcass fraying inside the tire. Any breach in the integrity of the carcass is a place where the tension caused by inflation pressure cannot be contained by the original carcass. The boot material should "carry" tension across the hole as well as retain the tube inside. I think your choice of materials and of two layers is certainly decent. I've heard of using leaves, dollar bills, Tyvek scraps, and the stuff in the Velox kit, of course. I could imagine a lump considering the multiple layers, but you can always open the tire up and re-boot it if you have a problem. I've sewn the same tire at the same place multiple times in the past. If you run the needle through the factory holes, you won't get a wobbly tire and won't be weakening it by cutting new holes.

Sewing tension: I'd say pretty high, and make sure the stitch is locked. The surface tension of the carcass is carried across the seam by the thread, not the the base tape or any internal buffer layers. You don't want the tire seam to have a gap where the repair was - the finished tire will bulge and it may not contain the tube. Any roughness presented to the tube surface can lead to it being breached due to abrasion, as the miles pile up.

When you're done, INCREMENTALLY reinflate the tire, being sure to check that the leak is actually stopped, that the shape is not distorted, and that the shape is stable. If the leak persists or the shape is not good, it is possible to just pull it apart and re-do it. It's how we learn, and how we stay safe. And if the boot or seam is not holding (have never had a seam failure, but there's a first time for everything), you'll catch it before you're out on the road. Better she blows when you are not on a 50 mph descent in the Rockies with a sheer drop at road edge.

Needles/threads: I looked for a good replacement for my Velox needle and found upholsterer's needles. Better than those I like a Speedy-Stitcher, essentially a modernization of the sailmakers' awl, which must be a tool from antiquity - sail-powered navies from the times of the ancient Phoenicians up to the last clippers in the '30s must have used a similar hand tool to maintain sails. I took a bit of Velox thread to a local industrial sewing shop and selected a thread and a needle with a big enough hole and that would fit the Speedy-Stitcher's hole. Sadly I lost the thread and will have to do it all over next time I get a flat.

I think my needle might be different from the original Velox, but I'm happy with it. Lot's of engineering has gone into both upholstery sewing and sailmaking. Sailmaking is probably a better model of tubular tire sewing, since both have high tension across the seam when used for vehicle propulsion. When I go do it again, I might have to research sailmaking.

Excellent explanation, good advice. Thank you.

JohnDThompson 12-26-11 12:40 PM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 13640815)
Needles/threads: I looked for a good replacement for my Velox needle and found upholsterer's needles. Better than those I like a Speedy-Stitcher, essentially a modernization of the sailmakers' awl, which must be a tool from antiquity - sail-powered navies from the times of the ancient Phoenicians up to the last clippers in the '30s must have used a similar hand tool to maintain sails.

The "Speedy Stitcher" is still available and affordable:

http://www.speedystitcher.com/products.html

http://www.speedystitcher.com/120.jpg

ultraman6970 12-26-11 04:28 PM

What u guys call booting when repairing?? My english is bad so no idea what u guys mean by booting? Put a reinforcement inside of the carcass??

Did not know that stitcher device... cool :)

ps: the only issue I find with the stitcher device is the type of stitch it does. Anybody is actually using it??

rootboy 12-26-11 04:31 PM


Originally Posted by ultraman6970 (Post 13642188)
What u guys call booting when repairing?? My english is bad so no idea what u guys mean by booting? Put a reinforcement inside of the carcass??

Yes. Although I never remember doing that to tubulars when fixing flats. Depends on the size of the hole, I suppose.

RobbieTunes 12-26-11 04:43 PM

Not off-topic, but not on it, either.

I just bought another set of Tufo S33 Pro tubulars, in red/black.
Now that these Czech tires are available from a couple of US distributors, I'll use them.
I picked up 2 tires and a twin-pack of Tufo Extreme tape for $103 delivered.

I carefully cleaned my Ambrosio Crono rims completely of any residue from the cheap Vittoria and Hutchinson tubular tires I pulled off.

This time, I decided to follow the directions. I inflated both to 80psi overnight, on the rim.
The next day, I pulled them, applied the tape, installed the tire, inflated to about 70psi, centered, and pulled the tape strip.
You can't tell them from clinchers. There is no residue. The Extreme is very good, and very clean.
I carry another tire and CO2 in my wedge bag. I can retape back at the ranch...

My lightest wheelset now has my lightest tire set. The wheelset is for criteriums.

I'm ordering another tire for the wedge bag.

I've also been using the clincher version of the S33 Pro, called the CS33 Pro.
I actually used them in error on a 50-miler, taped to tubular rims by mistake. They worked fine.
The clinched tubular tire rolls very very well, has great response. I carry sealant & air, not a spare.

ultraman6970 12-26-11 04:44 PM

Oh.. yes it depends of the hole, with 1 mm stuff donth worth the hassle but with stuff over 2.5mm u have to. What I used all the time was pieces of old tubulars, even a friend was able to change the whole tube from inside using a broom but until today I cant figure it out how he was able to do that.

sisddwg 12-26-11 11:08 PM

Campagnolo Lambda vs Fir Rigel: I have both, NOS. Which will build a better wheel or are the equal?

neurocop 12-26-11 11:53 PM

I love my tubulars, but I've converted all my tubes to clinchers because of the cost of the tires. Good tubes and tube rims are light and roll superbly, and are easy to replace on the road (if you carry a spare). But at $50+ a pop (for mediocre tubulars) I just couldn't justify it for the kind of riding I do. The good news is that you now can get reasonably lightweight clincher rims and tires, but these still ain't cheap. The economy comes when you have to fix flats.

As regards the Conti Giros, they are reasonably priced. I've got a few of them and they are slightly "lumpy" over the valve stem. Otherwise they are fine.

I know that you can repair a flatted tubular, and I've done that, but it really is a PITA compared to fixing a flatted clincher.

Another complaint about tubulars is the fact that the glue tends to gum up and harden in the rim nipple holes. I try to avoid this problem in my wheels by trying to keep the glue from filling the nipple holes, but I've been frustrated having to deal with gunked up rims from previous owners who seemed not to care less about this. I have been pleasantly surprised when I found rims that indicated the previous owner considered this problem, especially some unknown guy who actually went to the trouble of inserting bits of cork stoppers into the rim nipple holes to keep out the rim glue.

ultraman6970 12-27-11 12:53 AM

I dont agree with neurocop that much. :)

Any old timer here still using tubulars???

rootboy 12-27-11 07:15 AM

I am.

ScottRyder 12-27-11 07:39 AM

I used them when I was young, moved over to clinchers, now everything is going back to tubulars.

Scott

lotek 12-27-11 07:59 AM

Dawes-man, another name for the tyre-savers is Flint-catchers.
I like tyre-savers if installed correctly they will flick off any debris (rocks, glass etc.)
before it has a chance to be driven further into your tyre and puncture
the tubes.
The other trick I was taught was to 'wipe' tires after riding through
glass etc. use the palm of your glove and allow the tire to run across
it, but you need to be careful doing so. Wipe front tire just in front
of the downtube just don't grab it so hard it pulls your hand into the fork.
For the back tire between tire and seatube, NEVER behind the brake bridge
where your had will be pulled into it.
I think there's a wealth of information on this in the CR archives.

I don't own any clinchers and yeah I guess I'm an oldtimer.

Marty

gomango 12-27-11 08:07 AM


Originally Posted by ultraman6970 (Post 13643437)
I dont agree with neurocop that much. :)

Any old timer here still using tubulars???

Of course, but not exclusively.

ultraman6970 12-27-11 08:59 AM

Was asking about the old timers because I dont know if any of you have the custom of taking the air out of the tubulars (at least 50% of the pressure) when you guys are not using that bike or the wheels???

rootboy 12-27-11 09:20 AM


Originally Posted by lotek (Post 13643839)
The other trick I was taught was to 'wipe' tires after riding through
glass etc. use the palm of your glove and allow the tire to run across
it, but you need to be careful doing so. Wipe front tire just in front
of the downtube just don't grab it so hard it pulls your hand into the fork.
Marty

I do this too Marty, even with my Flint Catchers installed. However, I have a different method. I never put my gloved hand on the front tire in front of the down tube, behind the fork crown. I reach up in front of the brake and let my gloved fingers rub on the tire for a couple of revolutions.

rootboy 12-27-11 09:21 AM


Originally Posted by ultraman6970 (Post 13643986)
Was asking about the old timers because I dont know if any of you have the custom of taking the air out of the tubulars (at least 50% of the pressure) when you guys are not using that bike or the wheels???

I don't bother with this. My tubulars lose pressure on their own after a few days. Self-regulating. :)

lotek 12-27-11 09:22 AM

I use that method too, depending on the bike, a few of mine that works
out to be quite a long reach.
with modern tires (tyres, singles etc.) I don't let the air out between rides,
some of my tires have latex tubes so they do it for me.

rootboy 12-27-11 09:31 AM

Yes. True enough. It can be quite a stretch out to the tire. I'm not as flexible as I used to be, so maybe I should try the behind the brake location. I was just always too afraid to do it there. Horrible visions popped into my head.

gomango 12-27-11 09:39 AM


Originally Posted by rootboy (Post 13644058)
I don't bother with this. My tubulars lose pressure on their own after a few days. Self-regulating. :)

Agreed.

Especially the Vittorias on my wife's De Rosa.

RobbieTunes 12-27-11 11:19 AM

Mine don't. Of all my tires, they hold air better than any.
One used to go down overnight, bad valve. I inserted a new one with blue loc-tite.
No problem since.

RobbieTunes 12-27-11 11:24 AM


Originally Posted by ultraman6970 (Post 13643437)
Any old timer here still using tubulars???

I am.

I like the look of some modern wheels, so I'm going to see if I can find those Wolber TX Profile aero tubular rims.
Spoke count is always the problem, and the obstacle.

As far as cost, I paid $103 delivered for two tires and tape, and not cheap tubulars, either.
That's comparable to clinchers with tubes of that quality.

With prettier tires out there, clean tape installation, ugly messy tubulars are no longer the norm.

Ex Pres 12-27-11 11:25 AM


Originally Posted by RobbieTunes (Post 13644467)
Mine don't. Of all my tires, they hold air better than any.
One used to go down overnight, bad valve. I inserted a new one with blue loc-tite.
No problem since.

You need to try some up-market tubulars with Latex, not butyl, tubes. :)

Road Fan 12-28-11 09:15 AM


Originally Posted by ultraman6970 (Post 13643986)
Was asking about the old timers because I dont know if any of you have the custom of taking the air out of the tubulars (at least 50% of the pressure) when you guys are not using that bike or the wheels???

Not sure if I'm and old-enough timer for you, but I've never had the custom of removing the air. Not sure what the benefit would be, considering potential stress on the valve and the valve to innertube bond.

Road Fan 12-28-11 09:18 AM


Originally Posted by ultraman6970 (Post 13642188)
What u guys call booting when repairing?? My english is bad so no idea what u guys mean by booting? Put a reinforcement inside of the carcass??

Did not know that stitcher device... cool :)

ps: the only issue I find with the stitcher device is the type of stitch it does. Anybody is actually using it??

Yes, I have used it. What's your issue with the type of stitch it does?

Bianchigirll 12-28-11 10:03 AM


Originally Posted by sisddwg (Post 13643284)
Campagnolo Lambda vs Fir Rigel: I have both, NOS. Which will build a better wheel or are the equal?

I am not familiar with the details of either but ig they are about the same I would use the FIR rims. if you wanted to sell a pair at somepoint you would be able to sell the Campis quicker. a few winters ago I bout several pair of NOS FIR rims for less than half of what people were asking for things like a Mavic MA40.

I think I am about 50/50 right now.


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