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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

USAZorro 12-01-05 10:03 AM


Originally Posted by lotek
funny thing, I was in LBS last week and they had Jandd seat bags on
sale. So I bought the tubular bag for cheap. It is like the bags of old,
holds little more than than a tubular and maybe a velox repair kit and
multi tool.
I like it. I'd take pics but as we know they aren't working right now.

guess I'll put that old toestrap back in the parts bin.

marty

Can't you link to a picture?

lotek 12-01-05 10:33 AM

Ok worked that out (use img not attachment),
this is a Tufo version of the bag, mine does not have
the garish logo
http://www.biketiresdirect.com/NewIm...67/JABAG-1.jpg

s70rguy 12-01-05 10:53 AM

I really have to step into this spare tubular discussion here. I have been reading about UV rays degrading your spare tubular, about 'socks' (?), 'toe straps' (??), 'sew-it-yourself' (????), 'a few wrenches', and so on, and so on.
Now old school, and I mean really old school, would mean: no spare tubular at all. Just rely on good fortune! Why? Because a bulky something under your saddle cramps your style. And style is what counts.
OK, a little more sensible, you want to carry a spare. Just take any old, multiple repaired tubular, rubber band around it, and put it with leather toeclip strap under your saddle. Pull the strap as tightly as possible, because you want the guy behind you to have a good look at your muscular thighs.
OK, so now you flat (months and months after you put that spare under your saddle, because you've had that good fortune all the same). You undo the leather strap (with difficulty, cause it's really cold), you unfold the spare and a slight puff of dust rises from the dried out tubular. You put it on your wheel (fingers still smarting from pulling the flat oof of it), you pump it, sh***t, it won't hold air. You limp home.

That's old school!





(of course I haven't ridden on a tubular since ??? '85??)

peripatetic 12-03-05 02:09 AM

Hey sew-up junkies: found this poking about on ebay. Too costly for me, but Nitto makes nice stuff:

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-NITTO-BICYCL...QQcmdZViewItem

ridesoldtrek 12-04-05 02:01 PM

Thank you to Lotek and whoever suggested this forum on tubulars. I still have an old set of sew-up wheels but don't ride them anymore. I rode sew-ups for about 10 years, starting in 1972 when I traded my Schwinn Varsity for a really cool new Gitane Interclub - a low-end racy version of the old Grand Sport which was very popular in SE Wisconsin in those days. I rode sew-ups all through high school, and into college, over any and every surface, toured a bit with full gear, even riding logging roads in northern WI and Montana.

I built a new set of wheels with tubular rims when I bought my Trek frame in 77, and rode tubulars for another 5 years or so. It was on a week long trip in northern WI when I finally cursed those tires enough to make the leap to clinchers (they didn't hold up that well to my riding style at the time - the streets of Madison, WI).

I resisted throwing them away, and now I have this spare set of wheels with Shimano 600 hubs and Fiamme red label rims languishing in my basement. Seems like a nice set of wheels, should get some tubulars and try them again.

I really appreciate all the advice and experience people are sharing - back when I was riding them, I was not very sophisticated, even though I patched and sewed them until I was sick of it, there wasn't much of a network for this kind of knowledge, and we muddled our way through things.

As for those that say they ride smoother - hmm, with all due respect I think that's nostalgia or elitism or style-addiction or something else fogging your judgement. Look closely at the mechanics and physics of the question. I just don't buy it. But I suppose if you close your eyes, click your brake levers three times and really believe....

luker 12-04-05 07:19 PM

I admit that I have nothing but subjective opinion to support my claim that they ride more smoothly. But, if we look at the physics of the question, we see that a tubular rim is an elegant, lightweight solution that because of its strong cross section can be made to be strong and still somewhat flexible, whereas a clincher needs extra mass to clinch the tire to the rim. The complicated cross section must preclude flex or the bead clinch runs the risk of failing. It is this more rigid rim design that makes the dang thangs ride like a skyed 87 Dodge Ram Pickup.

ridesoldtrek 12-04-05 09:19 PM


Originally Posted by luker
I admit that I have nothing but subjective opinion to support my claim that they ride more smoothly. But, if we look at the physics of the question, we see that a tubular rim is an elegant, lightweight solution that because of its strong cross section can be made to be strong and still somewhat flexible, whereas a clincher needs extra mass to clinch the tire to the rim. The complicated cross section must preclude flex or the bead clinch runs the risk of failing. It is this more rigid rim design that makes the dang thangs ride like a skyed 87 Dodge Ram Pickup.

I don't know, luker, sounds like you're grasping at straws there. Nice try, though. When you are riding on a smooth road, which is the best place for tubulars anyway, your argument for flex doesn't fly. I don't think it really flies even over a rough surface - that's one of the things that the advent of pneumatic tires did for us afterall. When you look at the amount of tension in a rim, etc etc etc (that's my way of saying it's late, and I really don't have time to get into the technical/engineering stuff right now - my brain is not up to it) well, I don't think it's something anyone can actually feel while riding except perhaps under the most extreme conditions.

One thing I do know that you can feel in a tire or wheel, and that's the effect of a fully loaded set panniers in the rear. Makes the tires feel like they are filled with concrete instead of air.

By the way, I do think it's perfectly OK to like them just because you think they feel groovy, and they're not what everyone else is riding, and there's something quaint or cool or whatever about a tire you have to fix by sewing it up with a needle and thread and glue them on the rim. That's part of what attracted my 15-year old sensibilities to them over 30 years ago. It will be nothing but pure nostalgia that coaxes money out of my pocket to get sew-ups back on a bike. It kept me from throwing them in the trash many times in the days before ebay.

I'll let you know if I actually fall for it.

peripatetic 12-04-05 11:05 PM

I know, geez, grump. What's up, Debbie Downer? Seems like r.o.t. should be in the roadies forum, not here in Classic & Vintage where nostalgia is kind of the point.

BTW what the hell's wrong with a little nostalgia, anyway? Heck, why ride a bike when you can just hop in a Hummer laden with goodies like on-board GPS and DVD players? You're logic amounts to general kill-joy joy.

Too tired to discuss the engineering, but not too tired to generally dampen someone else's mood.

* * *

My roommate, a cyclocrosser, just got through telling me that tubulars are far better for cyclocross racing; he said that he's lost a whole season to a couple of pinch flats on his old clinchers.

wildjim 12-05-05 01:42 AM

Tubular tires may "feel" different when ridden?

Consider This:

http://www.spokeandsprocket.com/cartgenie/pg_tires.asp

http://www.torelli.com/tech/tires.shtml

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/r...e-tubular.html

http://www.jimlangley.net/wrench/tubular.html

lotek 12-05-05 08:32 AM

personally believe the ride has more to do with
TPI of good tubulars than anything else, good tubulars
just seem to glide over road imperfections.
now, this thread is about tubulars, sewups, singles or whatever you
want to call em.
Don't like em? don't read the thread
this isn't about opinions, physics of tubulars vs clinchers,
jobst brandt's rants etc. it is about the joy of riding a
good tubular and tips on maintenace, storage etc.

marty

ridesoldtrek 12-05-05 09:04 AM

I think you guys are being a little sensitive about this.

Lotek, I think your observation about the TPI and general quality of tubulars is on the mark. Whether its tubulars or clinchers, construction, materials, and build quality can make a huge difference. I think that's what people are generally feeling. A low grade tubular feels pretty much like your run of the mill clincher.
I rode some pretty low grade tubulars and some good ones, there was a noticable difference between the two.

by the way, I mis-spoke on the "tension" in a rim - meant to say compression.

peripatetic 12-05-05 11:48 AM

I'm not really sensitive about it: I've never even ridden a tubular; but lotek has it right when he talks about brandt's rants &c. It really is a thread with info on tubulars, not a "mythbusters" challenge. If you want one of those, start your own thread, us pupils have already taken on the base assumption; 's why we're here.

mollusk 12-05-05 12:22 PM


Originally Posted by cyclezen
I was duly advised by the 'old guyz' that my white cotton gym sock was unacceptable as a tire sock. They said go 'naked' or 'figure it out'. So I took one of my old black nylon dress socks... got the thumbs up for that. Added bonus was I could put in some change for an ice cream bar - never occurred to me in some 2 years of ridin with a bare tire strapped under the seat. Since my parents didn't/don't drive, callin for a pickup was never an option. But a good choco eclair after a nice ride, primo!
... now I have to carry readin glasses in the sock... :(

Of course the sock has to be dark. The sock will get dirty and greasy and a dark sock hides it.

luker 12-05-05 07:04 PM

wow. I looooove to start a good argu, unh, discussion. I am prowling around for a portable linear accelerometer. When I find one, I'll put it in a backpack, go riding on tires of many types, and post the scientifically supported results on this forum. Until then, I'll continue to line my helmet with tinfoil so that the thought police cannot monitor my thoughts.

USAZorro 12-05-05 07:22 PM


Originally Posted by ridesoldtrek
I think you guys are being a little sensitive about this.

Lotek, I think your observation about the TPI and general quality of tubulars is on the mark. Whether its tubulars or clinchers, construction, materials, and build quality can make a huge difference. I think that's what people are generally feeling. A low grade tubular feels pretty much like your run of the mill clincher.
I rode some pretty low grade tubulars and some good ones, there was a noticable difference between the two.

by the way, I mis-spoke on the "tension" in a rim - meant to say compression.

I agree with your statements on this post. What bugged me about the previous one was the matter-of-fact dismissal of Luker's supposition, without explanation. I also don't buy that a well built tubular wheelsets are less suited to rough surfaces than clinchers (Fiamme w/ Paris-Roubaix?). Perhaps the lightest ones aren't well suited for them, but there are suitable rims that will be lighter and have a bit more "give" than clincher rims. A minimal factor, behind TPI, Tire Size and Tire Pressure? Yes. However one that I wouldn't be so quick to dimisses a very discerning rider being able to feel in certain circumstances.

fwiw - there have been posters here who swear that there's no difference in feel between steel and aluminum frames (on the Road Cycling forum). I know those fellows are in denial. :)

Chongo 12-05-05 10:17 PM


Originally Posted by lotek
wildjim,

If your are messing in Baltimore I might choose a heavier tire than the
sprinters.
I think the Tufo Elite is pretty good, however they are not repairable
so the idea of sewing by the side of the road isn't an option.
I don't like the tufo sealant, leaks at about 90 psi. I've been using
Rock n' Roll Tube Spooge. similiar stuff but will not ooze out up till
about 115psi (reported, I haven't needed it).
They are mountable with regular glue, just scrape the basetape a little
to remove the sealant (like the veloflex tubulars).

come on, you know you want to do it.

I've been using Tufo S3 lites (215 grams) for racing and training for about 4 years, and I've found that the sealant works great to at least 150 psi. It doesn't work on anything bigger than 2mm. Unfortunately, the tire is toast at that point; Fortunately, that doesn't happen very often. Overall, I flat far less often than my friends on clinchers.

cyclezen 12-06-05 12:38 PM


Originally Posted by ridesoldtrek
Thank you to Lotek and whoever suggested this forum on tubulars. I still have an old set of sew-up wheels but don't ride them anymore. I rode sew-ups for about 10 years, starting in 1972 when I traded my Schwinn Varsity for a really cool new Gitane Interclub - a low-end racy version of the old Grand Sport which was very popular in SE Wisconsin in those days. ...

I really appreciate all the advice and experience people are sharing - back when I was riding them, I was not very sophisticated, even though I patched and sewed them until I was sick of it, there wasn't much of a network for this kind of knowledge, and we muddled our way through things.

As for those that say they ride smoother - hmm, with all due respect I think that's nostalgia or elitism or style-addiction or something else fogging your judgement. Look closely at the mechanics and physics of the question. I just don't buy it. But I suppose if you close your eyes, click your brake levers three times and really believe....

Then within the 'intent' of this thread, which is to 'support' info about sewups, it might be appropriate to respect that, do some personal 'housekeeping' and REMOVE your own posts that offer nothing of positive substance. Would be nice for others who 'littered' to do the same.
Wanna discourse the merits of sewups, solids, clinchers or moonboots - start another thread
I'll remove this 'reply' once it seems others have gotten smart enough to figure it out...

jim-bob 12-06-05 12:52 PM

Does anyone have any recommendations for knobby sew-ups? I'm building up a sort of scary cyclocross bike, and am thinking about going to tubies.

ridesoldtrek 12-08-05 12:12 AM


Originally Posted by USAZorro
I agree with your statements on this post. What bugged me about the previous one was the matter-of-fact dismissal of Luker's supposition, without explanation. I also don't buy that a well built tubular wheelsets are less suited to rough surfaces than clinchers (Fiamme w/ Paris-Roubaix?). Perhaps the lightest ones aren't well suited for them, but there are suitable rims that will be lighter and have a bit more "give" than clincher rims. A minimal factor, behind TPI, Tire Size and Tire Pressure? Yes. However one that I wouldn't be so quick to dimisses a very discerning rider being able to feel in certain circumstances.

Yes, I agree I was kind or short in my reply. No disrespect intended, just a bit of poor judgement on my part. Luker did have some very good observations about the basic differences between clincher and tubular rim construction, which may make a difference, I just didn't happen to agree.

Zorro, my contention was about the tires themselves, not the rims/wheelsets, but again, this is my opinion. Having not ridden tubulars for many years now, I may not be up to speed on what is available today.

I think if we're all honest about the posts here, we'll recognize that much of it is opinion afterall, some of it may be correct, and some not. Hopefully people will feel free to express opinions, popular or otherwise. I fully expect to see, and welcome, opinions that differ from mine.

peripatetic 12-08-05 04:57 PM


Originally Posted by jim-bob
Does anyone have any recommendations for knobby sew-ups? I'm building up a sort of scary cyclocross bike, and am thinking about going to tubies.


Awesome. Do they exist? What about tubular knobbies on a fixed gear wheel for winter riding, hmm...

jim-bob 12-08-05 05:10 PM


Originally Posted by peripatetic
Awesome. Do they exist? What about tubular knobbies on a fixed gear wheel for winter riding, hmm...

Yeah, I've seen a bunch of 'em on ebay and the like, but was hoping to get feedback from people who've used them.

(And yeah, fixed is a definite consideration for this one.)

Fred Smedley 12-08-05 05:48 PM

Has anyone tried these?

Vredestein Volante Pro Tricomp Tubular Tires- advertised as a 285 gram training-budget race tire.

USAZorro 12-08-05 08:24 PM


Originally Posted by ridesoldtrek
Yes, I agree I was kind or short in my reply. No disrespect intended, just a bit of poor judgement on my part. Luker did have some very good observations about the basic differences between clincher and tubular rim construction, which may make a difference, I just didn't happen to agree.

Zorro, my contention was about the tires themselves, not the rims/wheelsets, but again, this is my opinion. Having not ridden tubulars for many years now, I may not be up to speed on what is available today.

I think if we're all honest about the posts here, we'll recognize that much of it is opinion afterall, some of it may be correct, and some not. Hopefully people will feel free to express opinions, popular or otherwise. I fully expect to see, and welcome, opinions that differ from mine.

No worries. I agree with you on the tires. For me the advantages have outweighed the inconveniences.

Opinions are formed based on expectations and perceptions, and since "perception is reality"...

cyclodan 12-10-05 11:37 PM


Originally Posted by peripatetic
Awesome. Do they exist? What about tubular knobbies on a fixed gear wheel for winter riding, hmm...

Not only do they exist they are the choice of the pros. But you better break into the piggy bank!

http://www.store.yahoo.com/cyclocros.../tubulars.html

San Rensho 12-11-05 06:47 PM


Originally Posted by lotek
personally believe the ride has more to do with
TPI of good tubulars than anything else, good tubulars
just seem to glide over road imperfections.
now, this thread is about tubulars, sewups, singles or whatever you
want to call em.
Don't like em? don't read the thread
this isn't about opinions, physics of tubulars vs clinchers,
jobst brandt's rants etc. it is about the joy of riding a
good tubular and tips on maintenace, storage etc.

marty

Another consideration in ride quality is the fact that clinchers, since they have a bead that grabs a rim edge to stay seated, has to have very stiff sidewalls compared to sew ups which have very flexible sidewalls because of their round cross section.

This means that when leaned over hard in a corner, the sew up will flex and soak up imperfections in the road, while a clincher will not and have more of a tendency to slide.


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