Hyperglide vs Ultraglide Timeline
 

Wanting to convert an old crap Suntour drivetrain of my brothers to at least basic shimano sis. He doesn't roll with a front derailleur so just looking for a shifter, chain and RD. Not sure where to start. I thought to look for the downtube shifters first, but now which freewheel do they index with?

And also, anyone (sheldon browns didnt do it for me) have a timeline for this shimano indexed shifting? When did we shift from uniglide to hyperglide? 6 cogs, to 7 cogs? 7 to 8? And when did SIS transfer from freewheel to cassette?

There's a pretty good timeline of that on the Shimano wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimano#Road_groupsets Hyperglide started in 1989, IIRC.

Ok cool, I'll check that out. Thanks!

First find out what you got. Measure the rear drop out spacing. Is it 120mm or 126mm? Assuming it's 126mm and the rear wheel has a freewheel hub and not a Suntour cassette hub, the easiest course of action would be to buy a 6 or 7 speed Shimano or Sunrace HG style freewheel. HG style meaning the cogs have these carvings and contours on them:
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f3597d5b09.jpg
Then get a Shimano SIS compatible RD. That would be something like a Shimano RD1050,1055, 6208, 6400....
Then shift levers. If you have a 6 sp freewheel get 6 speed shift levers. 7 sp freewheel 7 speed levers.
Finally get a 6-8sp chain.

Oh yeah- Ultraglide is long out of production. Just forget about it. UG cassettes are expensive and not as good as HG.

All 5- and 6-speed rear clusters use a 5.5mm pitch, AFIK, and any Shimano 6-speed shifter, combined with a Shimano SIS derailleur will work. Hyperglide cogs will make shifting a bit less clunky, but are also more susceptible to ghost shifting. YMMV.

EDIT: when using a 5-speed cluster, you'll need the block the last click of the shifter with the RD limiting screw.

...the distancing on 6 cog freewheels is pretty similar on most makers' freewheels, so 6 speed Shimano indexing is pretty forgiving with regard to freewheel brand you use. That said, Shimano freewheels are so ubiquitous in the used parts stream that I usually use one of theirs in a freewheel setup.

You sound like maybe you are going for freehub. The six speed freehubs are all pre-hyperglide, AFAIK. You didn't really elaborate on the rear wheel you now have, if that's what you will be using.

Also think about what gearing you plan on to check that the RD chosen can accommodate the large cog.

I think Dura-Ace was available with SIS in 1985. I don't know when the first Shimano freehub/cassette was available but its introduction predates SIS (and for a while both freewheel and cassette hubs were offered up until Hyperglide was introduced). My roadie bought in 1986 is 6-speed SIS Uniglide freewheel. I think Hyperglide was 1989. My MTB from 1988 is 6-speed SIS Uniglide freehub.

Yep, you are correct, I forgot to mention what is here now: I have 126mm spacing on a freewheel hub. I'm looking for a replacement to this old beat down (and seized) suntour winner 6 speed. It's an old beat down Cannondale with crap suntour components that was converted to friction. I was just wondering if I could cheaply convert this with cheap used shimano sis stuff. Since it's 6 speed now, I'm very sure he'll want it to remain 6 speed which is why I was inquring about the ultraglide time line. I asked about it because I wasn't sure if there was even a 6 speed freewheel (not cassettes) in hyperglide; I always assumed 6 speed anything predated hyperglide, but I'm not sure.

And about gearing, I'm thinking 26 tooth max in back. He yanked his front derailleur because he never uses it, and is rolling with a single 46 tooth chainring up front. I guess I was trying to source components in a certain order. There's a crap suntour cyclone rear derailleur on there now, and if I could source a uniglide 6 speed twist tooth freewheel, (already have the chain) and the friction shifting is actually really nice, I will just stay with that. But if I'm not satisfied, I guess at that point I'd go forward with the cheap used 105 or 600 rear D and shifter. So with this game plan, sourcing a compatible 6 speed freewheel would be first. If stuff works satisfactorily then great. If not I can go forward. I will also use this intel for my own future purchases when I build my own retro bad weather beater.

Freewheel - Cassette Sprocket Spacing
 

This chart is from Sheldon Brown's website with 5 to 7 sprocket listings. The specs are generally pretty accurate but there's always been lots of small variations in spacing, sprocket widths also freewheel/cassettes widths especially between different brands. YMMV....

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...70cd4308f3.jpg

Freewheel Width comparisons: Standard 6 speed FW - 34.2mm, 7 speed FW - 35.8mm, Narrow 6 speed FW - 32.4mm (Note - all 7 Speed FW were Narrow width)

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d85eb3380d.jpg

Rear side of FW fits flush with the hub.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0eafc19aa6.jpg

Suntour with 1mm recess

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bee99e1837.jpg

Suntour with 2mm recess.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...78243e3271.jpg

Shimano introduced freehubs and removable cassettes in the late 1970's. They didn't catch on until the 1980's because they required a special hub which was incompatible with the existing somewhat universal freewheel standards.

They produced the "twist tooth" Uniglide freewheels and cassettes into the late 1980's. My 1988 Bianchi came with a Shimano Uniglide freewheel to go along with the Campy Victory hubs.

SIS was introduced with the DuraAce lineup in 1984. Shimano did a lot to standardize rear dropout spacing: 5 Speed - 120mm, 6 Speed - 126mm, and later 130mm for MTBs (7 Speed Narrow FWs were supposed to fit 126mm wide spacing but hub "D" widths were not always compatible).

Suntour's "Standardized" hub specs with 30mm D width for 120mm 5 Speed hubs and 36mm D width for 126mm width 6 Speed hubs. Over the years the widths were changed on many hubs by shops and owners adding washers to create more D space.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a2c09b3307.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7194050ef2.jpg

verktyg :50:

The 6 speed Shimano 600 freewheel from the early 80's has twist teeth and is pretty awesome in my experience. I've had a couple but nothing smaller than a 28 tooth.

A Suntour 6 speed freewheel (non ultra) will index with Shimano 6 speed gears and shifters. Don't rule it out.

My two Lotus bikes from 1982 have 7200 Dura Ace and 6200 600 (Arabesque), both with Uniglide freehubs, 6 speed Uniglide cassettes, friction shifting, and 126mm spacing. There are also 5 speed Uniglide freehubs.

My 1985 Centurion Ironman has a later version of 600 (6207) with friction shifting, a freewheel -type hub, a 6-speed Uniglide freewheel, and 126mm spacing. The next year's model got 6208 SIS shifters and RD, but was still Uniglide, 6 speeds, and 126mm. I THINK it still used a freewheel hub.

My 1989 Schwinn Circuit has Sante(5000) with SIS, a 7 speed Uniglide freehub, a 7 speed Uniglide cassette, and 126mm spacing. Apparently there were also Sante freewheel hubs and freewheels, also in 7 speed and Uniglide.

My 1994 Cannondale had RX100 with SIS, a 7speed Hyperglide freehub, a 7 speed Hyperglide cassette, and 128mm spacing, which allowed you to use 126mm or 130mm hubs.

My 1996 Ritchey has 7410 Dura Ace with STI shifters, SIS, an 8 speed Hyperglide freehub - with threads for Uniglide cassette threaded smallest cog - an 8 speed Hyperglide cassette, and 130 mm spacing.

That kinda covers the evolution, I think.

Sante was 7000 series, and right up there with Dura-Ace in terms of the freewheel design.

Shimano never had "Ultra Glide", UG stood for Uniglide i.e. twisted-tooth cogs.

Suntour Alpha freewheels (with just simple additional bevels canted along two axes on every cog) are nearly in the same performance league as Uniglide when it comes to good friction shifting. I believe that the bevels were designed to simulate Shimano's UG twisted teeth but without infringing their patents.
I modified the teeth on my 1979 Fuji Pro's Ultra-7 freewheel to include the Alpha cog bevels, and now it shifts with the best of them even under some amount of pedaling load!

No, Sante was 5000. All the part numbers are in the 5000 range.

pretty much any 6-9 speed Shimano SIS RD, road or mountain, will shift any 6-9 speed shimano freewheel or cassette, if the indexed shifter speeds match the rear cog number. 6/7/8 same chain, 9 uses 9 speed chain. There are a few anomolies in there, mostly on the Dura Ace level.

1990 at the TdF was when the Dura-Ace was officially debut on the 7-Eleven bikes with STI brifter, dual pivot brakes, 8 speed hyperglide cassette and chain.

Do you mean it's an old beat up Suntour drivetrain, or the Suntour drivetrain won't work properly?

An Accushift Cyclone system should work pretty good if it's maintained and using the right parts.

It's old and beat up lol. (also, when I had it on my old trek as a kid, I thought it was garbage with zero miles on it lol. Suntour went out of business, must mean something lol) My brother turned this into a 'gravel' bike and it's quite beat up now.

Short story long- Suntour missed the mark on indexed shifting- They thought precise friction shifting was the future of cycling- Shimano had a larger budget and had been preparing for SIS. The public really wanted clicking shifting. The failure and warranty of the Mountech derailleurs and the tanking of the Japanese economy just kept putting them further and further behind Shimano-

https://www.mechanischehirngespinnst...of_suntour.pdf

6-7-8 Speed Indexing
 

YOU NAILED IT!

Shift levers determine indexing compatibility. (systems modeled after Shimano's SIS) I can't speak for 9 speed setups because I only have one that's on a never ridden show bike.

The key to those systems is an upper pulley with 1.5mm to 2mm side to side float which allows it to self center on the sprocket. It eliminates trimming! I've modified the upper pulleys on Campy NR/SR rear derailleurs and they DO index shift with a Shimano style lever. (forget about Campy's nightmare Synchro non-shifting system)

Shimano 6 speed indexing levers could be fussy because of sprocket spacing but 7 & 8 speed levers are more forgiving probably because of more accurate sprocket spacing???

BTW, I've used 9 speed chains on some fussy 8 speed setups and they fixed the problems.

This is a reasonably accurate list of chain widths: (read these as "nominal" dimensions as chains are a rather crude power transmission technology designed to effectively compensate for extreme variations in components)

Multi speed chains, from 5 to 8 speeds have inner width of 3/32 ? (2.38 mm).
Multi speed chains from 9 to 12 speeds have inner width of 11/128 ? (2.18 mm).

Outside width of the links:

5 & 6 speed – 7.8 mm (5/16 in) (all brands)
7 speed – 7.3 mm (9/32 in) (Shimano HG), 7.1 mm (9/32 in) (SRAM, Shimano IG)
8 speed – 7.3 mm (9/32 in) (Shimano HG), 7.1 mm (9/32 in) (SRAM, Shimano IG)
9 speed – 6.6 to 6.8 mm (1/4 to 9/32 in) (all brands)
10 speed - 6.2 mm (1/4 in) (Shimano, Campy), 5.88 mm (7/32 in) (Campy, KMC)

verktyg :50:

Suntour Superbe Pro Indexing
 

In reference to "an old beat up Suntour drivetrain"...

I bought a 1985 Raleigh USA Team bike with a Raleigh SBDU Reynolds 753 frame that had been painted in 1992 Raleigh USA Team Kit. It had the remnants of a Suntour Superbe Pro gruppo. The bike had been rode hard and raced by some sponsored teams in the NW.

As I received it - notice the Suntour "Blaze" plastic rear indexing lever:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5b3e03c895.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6f52af8eef.jpg

The Suntour Superbe Pro RD was the most worn out still functioning derailleur I'd ever used. There was at least 2mm of slop in the parallelogram and about 5mm of play in the lower pivot/pulley cage. It was still indexing a 13-26T 7 speed FW fine! :foo:

I found the correct Superbe Pro shift lever and a Superbe Pro RD in good condition, installed them, replaced the chain. It now it works just like a Shimano SIS setup! :lol:

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...605cea6053.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0274ac6761.jpg

It's one of my top 10 favorite bikes! :love:


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fa72797414.jpg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2c69e957c3.jpg

verktyg :50:

I've had several Accushift setups that shifted particularly well using modern chain (and using 9s chain on the Accu-7 setups).

Making sure that the cable runs only against polymer surfaces instead of metal helps even further, as does lubricating the indexing innards of the shift lever.

Accushift levers seem to over-shift momentarily toward the larger cogs, so may benefit from pulley float and from narrower chain (preventing momentary unwanted contact between the chain and the next-larger cog that you are shifting to).

Things weren't so great back in the day using random freewheels and chains with indexing setups, but I finally got my Synchro-7 levers to index-shift crisply and smoothly over a 7s Sunrace freewheel years later when I fitted 9s chain.

Beware of using any 6s SIS derailer with 8, 9 or 10s shifters, as the older derailer's actuation becomes regressive and tends to fall just short when shifting to the largest cog (leading to noises and/or skipping on the largest cog). The existing degree of pulley float is not enough to correct this. Some of the 7s SIS derailers also come up short in this regard!

Pulley float, to help reduce trimming... never thought of that! My bike shifts like CRAP, and I could never figure out why there is no amount of lever travel that can put the chain centered on the next higher cog without a ton of trimming. Ditching the suntour winner/regina oro combo for an old twist tooth shimano and sedis chain helped out a little, but it's never centered. It's either not enough, or too much. Do you think my Nuovo record doesn't have enough pulley float?

I’ve understood some of the primary keys to good indexing are the slant parallelogram and the Centeron pulley.

Keeping a good distance between the cog and the pulley and allowing for imperfections.