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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

BigChief 06-16-16 04:35 PM


Originally Posted by DQRider (Post 18850042)
As many of you know, I ride a recently-restored Raleigh DL1 rod-braked roadster. This bike weighs between 50 and 60 lbs, depending on what I'm carrying on any given day. I have added a 24t sprocket to my Sturmey-Archer AW hub in order to successfully climb most hills, but the grade on some hills is just too much. I have had to walk/push this bike up some very steep hills, and I feel rather foolish when doing so. But I also know that this was common practice, back in the day. I remember walking bikes up hills with no shame whatsoever back in the 1960s and `70s. But it seems now that things have changed.

Has anyone else experienced this?

Oh sure, I've been riding bikes since 1959. If my old legs can't get me up a hill, I figure I deserve a little slack for walking steep grades at this point.

BigChief 06-16-16 04:41 PM


Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate (Post 18849618)
Nice crimping tool; looks like a "legacy" tool from a Ma Bell's tool bag. My copper tubing arrives today; I'm gonna try that instead of brass. One thing I need to do so that the crimped end rotates smoothly inside the screw-on housing is to be sure that the actual crimps aren't "flattened" so much that they affect said rotation... And, do it so that the crimp job holds for another 40+ years.

The OEM SA crimped-on tube appears to have been crimped with a heavy duty crimping tool which put four crimps in at a time; wish I could get a close-up of it; it looks like an absolutely bulletproof job. I'm gonna have to use something more mundane.

FWIW, I don't like the modern setup with the pinch bolt as much because it adds a little bit of clutter to the bike's appearance.

I'm thinking there's a possibility that crimps might not hold with the softer copper tube or even brass. The crimped SA cables are steel and heavier gauge. Well, if it does slip, go to the JB Weld. I've had a JB weld cable on my Rudge for over a year now, so I have confidence it's strong enough.

DQRider 06-16-16 08:24 PM

Sacrilege?
 
Sorry, but I couldn't resist. Thinking about my earlier thread, about walking heavy English 3-speeds up hills, allows me to segue into this: What happens when you apply the English 3-Speed "Formula" to a classic, lightweight, foreign roadbike frame bought off of CL?

Well, this...

Before:

http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/...psxpr0n97b.png

After:

http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/...psvqsmztog.png

Yes, that is a Sturmey Archer AW laced into that skinny 700c wheel.

Slightly different angle:

http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/...psuyvg337z.png

Please forgive me if I have sinned...

clubman 06-16-16 10:07 PM


Originally Posted by DQRider (Post 18851335)
Sorry, but I couldn't resist. Thinking about my earlier thread, about walking heavy English 3-speeds up hills, allows me to segue into this: What happens when you apply the English 3-Speed "Formula" to a classic, lightweight, foreign roadbike frame bought off of CL?
Well, this...
Please forgive me if I have sinned...

It's no sin, it's done all the time, faithful or secular.

What happens? You get a super attractive 3 speed "townie" that's nimble, reponsive and quick. It's likely missing the prerequisite voids in the lugwork. :innocent:

What you don't get is that old slack angle ride. What you don't get is a bike that can lose traction, smack into a gate, even a wall and not bend the frame. Maybe a small adjustment to the forks and off you go. The wheels rarely warp. And no matter how many times you scrape the enamel finish, that bombproof, bonderized primer continues to protect the carbon steel frame. British metal manufacturing ruled the world after the war. So your CL 'keeper of the flame" will be lucky to get half the lifespan of the original British Sport or roadster. It's astounding how much North Sea salt air penetrates every corner of the UK.

No reason to not do it!

Mine, 84-ish SR, 2 speed hub. Fab.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-y...0/DSC06396.JPG

PalmettoUpstate 06-17-16 06:26 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 18851490)
It's no sin, it's done all the time, faithful or secular.

What happens? You get a super attractive 3 speed "townie" that's nimble, reponsive and quick. It's likely missing the prerequisite voids in the lugwork. :innocent:

What you don't get is that old slack angle ride. What you don't get is a bike that can lose traction, smack into a gate, even a wall and not bend the frame. Maybe a small adjustment to the forks and off you go. The wheels rarely warp. And no matter how many times you scrape the enamel finish, that bombproof, bonderized primer continues to protect the carbon steel frame. British metal manufacturing ruled the world after the war. So your CL 'keeper of the flame" will be lucky to get half the lifespan of the original British Sport or roadster. It's astounding how much North Sea salt air penetrates every corner of the UK.

No reason to not do it!

Mine, 84-ish SR, 2 speed hub. Fab.

Good insights those. What if the convert happened to be a Raleigh Grand Prix or other Raleigh road bike of the era? Those frames as uh... "delicate" as the Fuji for instance? And one other question - I have a few bikes queued up for this very treatment - does it make sense to leave the front derailleur intact and just adjust it to the SA 3-speed hub to end up with a 6 speed bike?

arex 06-17-16 07:42 AM


Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate (Post 18851810)
does it make sense to leave the front derailleur intact and just adjust it to the SA 3-speed hub to end up with a 6 speed bike?

I think I've heard of that being done. I think, though, that you'd have to make extra-sure that you have a good chainline to avoid problems

DQRider 06-17-16 08:04 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 18851490)
It's no sin, it's done all the time, faithful or secular.

What happens? You get a super attractive 3 speed "townie" that's nimble, reponsive and quick. It's likely missing the prerequisite voids in the lugwork. :innocent:

What you don't get is that old slack angle ride. What you don't get is a bike that can lose traction, smack into a gate, even a wall and not bend the frame. Maybe a small adjustment to the forks and off you go. The wheels rarely warp. And no matter how many times you scrape the enamel finish, that bombproof, bonderized primer continues to protect the carbon steel frame. British metal manufacturing ruled the world after the war. So your CL 'keeper of the flame" will be lucky to get half the lifespan of the original British Sport or roadster. It's astounding how much North Sea salt air penetrates every corner of the UK.

No reason to not do it!

Mine, 84-ish SR, 2 speed hub. Fab.

@clubman - That was a well-thought-out response. Thank you! :thumb: And you're right, this thing does feel rather delicate by comparison. My DL-1 is my only example of the English breed right now. I have test-ridden a friend's Raleigh-built Royal Scot, which looked exactly like a Sports, and it felt kind of (sorry about this) underwhelming at the time. However, now I realize that the Sports is the epitome of a "normal" everyday utility bike - not too light, but not too heavy either. Neutral, comfortable handling. And as you pointed out, tough as nails. You also make a good point about the paint finish, I am now struggling with what to do about the many little scratches and dings in the Fuji's paint job, because these will rust if left alone.

I believe that, with your help, I have talked myself into hunting for a good deal on a Raleigh Sports, or maybe the 5-speed (internal) Sprite. Then maybe I'll go the other way, and install some lighter alloy components to see what that feels like. Nothing irreversible, of course; and I'll keep all the original parts. What a cool hobby this is! Unlike motorbikes, when the motor needs a tune-up, you just ride more. :p

SirMike1983 06-17-16 08:09 AM

That Fuji is nice. I have always wanted to do something similar with an old Peugeot.

clubman 06-17-16 08:24 AM


Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate (Post 18851810)
Good insights those. What if the convert happened to be a Raleigh Grand Prix or other Raleigh road bike of the era? Those frames as uh... "delicate" as the Fuji for instance? And one other question - I have a few bikes queued up for this very treatment - does it make sense to leave the front derailleur intact and just adjust it to the SA 3-speed hub to end up with a 6 speed bike?

IMO it's not the same thing. A GP is really not that different from it's Sports cousins, it's just got longer legs, bigger wheels. So you won't get the benefits a quality lightweight frame can offer. As for leaving the front gear, it couldn't work without a tensioner to take up chain slack. It might not get a passing grade either functionally or aesthetically. I think it will look like a 70's boom bike missing some parts and would perform accordingly.

Edit as mentioned, I think the chainline issue is the big problem, that and the typical 1/8 chain found on SA hubs. You'd really need a 3/32 chain and appropriate cog for your SA hub. Not worth the effort.

DQRider 06-17-16 08:31 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 18851994)
That Fuji is nice. I have always wanted to do something similar with an old Peugeot.

Yup, me too. That's the other bike on my watch list. Now all I have to do is recharge the bike budget. :rolleyes: Oh, and create more space in my already-full shop. Boy, that didn't take long. I've only been at this for a year now. N+1=Fun, right?

markk900 06-17-16 11:02 AM

I did that upgrade to my AO-8, and it was fun because the old peugeots were pretty slack so it was closer to the Sports norm. Then I moved the parts to my Trek and got that very light, nimble IGH that also feels more delicate than the Raleighs.

BigChief 06-17-16 09:56 PM

I've been daydreaming about a sportier Sports for some time, but any way to make it really worth while, it's expensive. I'd need a nice 531 frame, old Super Course maybe. I'd need to modify the crank to 1/8" single sprocket. I'd need to install a 6 1/4" axle into a really nice AW hub, mid 50s would be nice and make custom spacer/anti-rotation washers to adapt the axle to the frame. Not sure what O.L.D the Super Course needs. Some cold setting might be necessary even with the longer axle and spacers. Then, you can't put cheap fittings on a bike like this. Good brakes, levers, alloy rims, fenders, a short reach SR stem, Sunlite alloy Northroads bars and a sprung Brooks saddle. Ca-ching. I bet it would be a grand gone before I was finished.

Doohickie 06-17-16 10:57 PM


Originally Posted by Brynley (Post 18842893)
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=527213http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=527214http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=527215http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=527216

I picked up this brown beauty for $35 at a flea market over the weekend. The stamp on the Sturmey Archer says it's a '69. It mainly caught my eye for the saddle, bag, and pump which I was planning on using for restoring my Rudge. There's some rust on the fenders but I think it will clean up nicely. I enjoy the way 23"s ride.

I took my $30 DL-1 out for a ride today. I got in 35 miles, including a waterfall,
https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...8d&oe=57C833B8

several miles on the trail,
https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...06&oe=57DE3B0E

a stop downtown,
https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...90&oe=57CEC649

and a visit to a friend's new brewery. He just got his big tanks in. Production starts next month.
https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...67&oe=57DD41F6

BigChief 06-18-16 08:12 AM


Originally Posted by Doohickie (Post 18853897)
I took my $30 DL-1 out for a ride today. I got in 35 miles, including a waterfall,
https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...8d&oe=57C833B8

several miles on the trail,
https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...06&oe=57DE3B0E

a stop downtown,
https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...90&oe=57CEC649

and a visit to a friend's new brewery. He just got his big tanks in. Production starts next month.
https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...67&oe=57DD41F6

Beautiful bike. I see you have an original equipment saddle bag and the straps aren't broken! I have one here with broken straps (which they almost always are) that I'm going to try my hand at restoring. Never worked with leather before. We'll see how it goes. My plan is to have that bag and a chrome pump for my roadster too.

gster 06-18-16 11:02 AM


Originally Posted by Doohickie (Post 18853897)
I took my $30 DL-1 out for a ride today. I got in 35 miles, including a waterfall,
https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...8d&oe=57C833B8

several miles on the trail,
https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...06&oe=57DE3B0E

a stop downtown,
https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...90&oe=57CEC649

and a visit to a friend's new brewery. He just got his big tanks in. Production starts next month.
https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...67&oe=57DD41F6

If you're trying to make me jealous, I think it's working.....

erileykc 06-18-16 12:13 PM

[QUOTE=Doohickie;18853897]I took my $30 DL-1 out for a ride today.
https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...90&oe=57CEC649

Wow ... chrome that still shines. My Tourist and I are envious.

Utech22 06-18-16 12:58 PM

http://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/...pswfokglsp.jpg
http://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/...pseqzr1vyr.jpg
http://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/...psxoibzmsv.jpg
http://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/...psykh17qvy.jpg
http://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/...psy71lnkp6.jpg
http://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/...psidrwa8sk.jpg
http://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/...pscgieyv0z.jpg
http://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/...psizc9vgd5.jpg
http://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/...psdi5ebved.jpg

ascherer 06-18-16 02:41 PM

Um...I haven't had a flashback like this since the '70's

noglider 06-18-16 04:25 PM

As for a six speed bike, if you can get the chainline problems, it seems fairly sensible. There are 33% jumps between gears on an AW hub and most other 3-speed hubs, that's going from low gear to high gear. Cut that in half, and the chainring jumps should give you half-step gearing. The gears are too far apart for me on those IGHs, so it might make me happy. You could use a 42T and a 48T chainring.

Or you could use two cogs in the back instead of two chainrings. Space the sizes about 17% apart (going from low to high).

Loose Chain 06-18-16 05:28 PM

Tubular, totally, like, rad!

gster 06-20-16 06:11 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Another Kijiji posting here in Toronto. An early 70's non folding Raleigh 20. Located in Parkdale, seller is looking for a reasonable offer.
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=528329http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=528330

noglider 06-20-16 06:13 AM

@gster, that looks like an RSW, not a Twenty.

BigChief 06-20-16 01:59 PM

Well, I found my project. A DL-1 too. Just like the roadster mentioned here a while ago, no date stamp on the hub and the same mismatched logos. I'll guess it's from 69-72. It was close by, dirt cheap and needs a lot of help. This should keep me busy for a while. Odd thing about this bike is as rusted as it is, somehow the important chrome bits are actually in good condition. Too bad about the Brooks. The leather dried out and shrank so much it ripped the holes at the rivets.
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/f...ch/69dl001.jpg
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/f...ch/69dl002.jpg
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/f...ch/69dl004.jpg

3speedslow 06-20-16 02:09 PM

Anything good hiding in the bag^^?

Great looking project. Some rust treatment to the fenders and chain case, fresh coat of black enamel and the looks are about there. Lucky with the chrome but older chrome always did have a second life hiding under rust.

markk900 06-20-16 02:20 PM

"Anything hiding in the bag?"....I always thought that was a joke until I got a nice Raleigh from an estate with the bag and it had all sorts of original crap in it!


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