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queerpunk 08-28-17 08:20 AM

Yeah, I've seen wide elbows lately, and I doubt it's due to stability. We're talking about world-class riders, chasing seconds, with aerodynamic testing cheaper than its ever been. I'm with bitingduck - it's probably the Most Speed position.

Eyeball aerodynamics just doesn't work. Or, it works - but only to a point and that point comes pretty fast. Aerodynamics can be counterintuitive, like bitingduck says.

Plus, some really weird positions work really well. I remember seeing shots of Evie Stevens before her hour record and thinking that her position looked very antiquated, but her coach says that it was one of the most aerodynamic positions he'd ever worked with.
https://cdn-cyclingtips.pressidium.c...24-901x600.jpg

And I was watching some Bobridge pursuits recently - he had a very heads-up position, but it was aerodynamic enough for him to set the IP world record.
http://cdn.media.cyclingnews.com/201...ridge4_670.jpg

jsk 08-28-17 09:39 AM


Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 19823086)
Yeah, I've seen wide elbows lately, and I doubt it's due to stability. We're talking about world-class riders, chasing seconds, with aerodynamic testing cheaper than its ever been. I'm with bitingduck - it's probably the Most Speed position.

I wouldn't discount the stability issue, it may be that some riders just don't feel like they can ride a tight line at maximum power output with elbows further in. I can't think of any other reason that wide elbows would help. Having the elbows all the way in almost touching won't be fastest for everybody, you can take the narrow elbows thing too far. But short of seeing actual wind-tunnel tests that prove it, I just can't believe that having the elbows wider than the thighs (which is what Hammer looks like in Carleton's second pic) is more aero.

If you look at the guys winning WorldTour TT's and Ironman bike legs, you see a lot of commonality in their positions, and most of them have pretty narrow elbows (at least compared to Hammer's position). There's a reason for that. I'm also willing to bet those guys have spent a lot more time in the wind tunnel than Hammer has (it's still not exactly cheap these days at a couple hundred bucks and hour, plus travel expenses if you're not local).

queerpunk 08-28-17 10:11 AM

You're right that World Tour pros have probably spent more WT time than Hammer, but worth noting that road TTs and Ironman are very different events than an IP or TP. The only thing they have in common (literally) is aerobars and a stopwatch.

Hammer's arms aren't wider than her thighs. Her hips are wider than her shoulders, and her arms don't go *out* from her shoulders. They're in line

As bitingduck pointed out, most aerodynamic doesn't necessarily mean fastest. Most Speed might sacrifice some aerodynamics for power, and the shorter the TT the more important maintaining the utmost power output is.

Of course, we could be talking in circles, or saying the same thing from opposite directions. Maybe it's for stability in turns - and maybe that's where they get power from.

carleton 08-28-17 11:45 AM

(Preface: Sara Hammer's first kilo split is faster than I've ever ridden a kilo.)

When I was doing full-speed kilos and flying laps in aerobars, riding at 60kph/37mph is a lot easier when your arms are wider.

I adopted a style similar to Hoy with the elbows (relatively) wide but the forearms narrow. Sorta makes an aerohead shape. That was an unintended result. It was simply most stable.

http://www.veloveritas.co.uk/wp-cont...-2007-kilo.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/staticarchive/5...45c03878e2.jpg

Notice the placement of his pads against the forearms, closer to the wrists than the elbows.

I tried the narrow position and it felt too delicate and I felt like I spent more mental energy wrangling the bike than I did focusing on what I needed to focus on.

Hammer (or Hoy) wouldn't have these problems as they've done these a million times. But, my guess would be either stability when laying down lots of power and/or breathing.

Poppit 08-28-17 12:29 PM

Carbon fibre arm rests https://www.shopforwatts.co.uk/colle...aero-arm-rests

bitingduck 08-28-17 12:49 PM


Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 19823086)
I remember seeing shots of Evie Stevens before her hour record and thinking that her position looked very antiquated, but her coach says that it was one of the most aerodynamic positions he'd ever worked with.

the thing that stands out in that picture is how high the trailing tip of her helmet is off her back - When you do that it tends to dump a vortex (energy lost into spinning air) off the the tip, rather than guiding air onto your back.


Originally Posted by jsk (Post 19823314)
If you look at the guys winning WorldTour TT's and Ironman bike legs, you see a lot of commonality in their positions, and most of them have pretty narrow elbows (at least compared to Hammer's position). There's a reason for that. I'm also willing to bet those guys have spent a lot more time in the wind tunnel than Hammer has (it's still not exactly cheap these days at a couple hundred bucks and hour, plus travel expenses if you're not local).

A couple hundred/hour is pretty cheap when you look at the cost/benefit, especially when it's local (and it was for Sarah for quite a long time, and she still has a lot of SoCal connections). Renting the VSC is in that neighborhood, of cost, too, and teams do plenty of that for private practice. Queerpunk correctly points out below that IP/TP is very different than an ironman or road TT. She needs max possible speed for about 4 minutes, not 45, or 240. At 45 or 240 minutes.


Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 19823387)
Hammer's arms aren't wider than her thighs. Her hips are wider than her shoulders, and her arms don't go *out* from her shoulders. They're in line

Sarah has wide hips and narrow shoulders. If you watch her at max power she also rocks her hips a lot (and gets a ton of power from it). I looked at some other pictures at different angles and see the same thing - her arms are inline so if you look at her from the front or top, the air is guided around the sides. If the arm position helps flow air around her hips it may very well be the most aero. Just looking from the side and trying to add a narrow cross section at the very front is only looking at a small part of the airflow.


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 19823685)
(Preface: Sara Hammer's first kilo split is faster than I've ever ridden a kilo.)

Some time ago (~5 years maybe?) Sarah and Mini-Phinney were both at elite track nats the same year. Phinney was the only male rider whose 3K split in the IP was faster than Sarah's 3K. If she'd ridden the 4K, she'd have probably gotten silver behind him.

Voodoo76 09-04-17 06:35 PM

1 Attachment(s)
The last pic I saw posted showed water up to the top of the track on the start/finish line.

bitingduck 09-05-17 05:11 PM


Originally Posted by Voodoo76 (Post 19840564)
The last pic I saw posted showed water up to the top of the track on the start/finish line.

They can hold rowboat battles til it drains.

ruudlaff 09-06-17 06:34 AM

Looks like an indenti-kit rip off of the kask bambino, and apparently world champ/olympic level racers are using them:
https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/ZXKRON...3-visor-bundle

Anyone have any experience or knowledge to impart?

carleton 09-06-17 08:52 AM


Originally Posted by ruudlaff (Post 19843545)
Looks like an indenti-kit rip off of the kask bambino, and apparently world champ/olympic level racers are using them:
https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/ZXKRON...3-visor-bundle

Anyone have any experience or knowledge to impart?

That's awesome! And reasonable!

Cycling helmets simply should not cost $300 or more. Period.

A skate helmet goes for about $50USD and is rated to survive 3 crashes. Most cycling helmets are only rated to survive 1 crash. The skate helmets weigh about the same as a Casco warp.

Caveat Emptor:

The helmet has to be approved for use in USA Cycling and/or UCI events.

This is why some popular European helmets aren't offered in the US, it's because they haven't applied for CPSC certification.

So, for a USA Cycling ONLY event, the helmet must be CPSC approved. For a USA Cycling event held under UCI Rules (like Elite/Jr/Masters Nationals), then EU helmet rules apply.

So, before you buy with intention to use it at a big event, it may be worth an email to see if it has the proper certifications. If it does, I'll probably get one.

Poppit 09-06-17 02:46 PM

Don't you guys have any shops in the states?

carleton 09-06-17 02:55 PM


Originally Posted by Poppit (Post 19844770)
Don't you guys have any shops in the states?

What do you mean?

For example, you can't get CASCO helmets in the USA. They are all imported. I think Catlike Helmets had the same deal. (not sure if they are available in the US now or not).

Godsight 09-06-17 05:05 PM

Actually Catlike Helmets were imported and distributed by Lambert-Hawley until this year for Canada/USA.

700wheel 09-06-17 09:23 PM


Originally Posted by Poppit (Post 19844770)
Don't you guys have any shops in the states?

I assume that you do not live in the USA.
Many USA cyclists buy items from the UK because prices excludes sales-tax/VAT and often includes free shipping and convenient delivery time.
Of course I support my local bike shop for most items I purchase.

carleton 09-06-17 09:36 PM


Originally Posted by Godsight (Post 19845041)
Actually Catlike Helmets were imported and distributed by Lambert-Hawley until this year for Canada/USA.

It's my understanding that when the Catlike Whisper was popular (2010, 2011?), they were not being imported into the USA.

http://www.cycleboredom.com/wp-conte...isper-side.jpg

Rumor had it at the time that even though some people could get them, they were not legal for use at USA Cycling events that were not UCI events (e.g. State Championships or Regionals are not OK but Nationals are OK)

The same went for Casco (I had a Casco at the time).

Poppit 09-07-17 01:02 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 19844790)
What do you mean?

For example, you can't get CASCO helmets in the USA. They are all imported. I think Catlike Helmets had the same deal. (not sure if they are available in the US now or not).



Do you have the same as Planet X, Dolan, Velodrome Shop, Brooks, Wiggle, Chain Reaction, Ribble, Merlin, etc.

Poppit 09-07-17 01:07 AM

BTW, the new Kask Mistral looks like a nice helmet, Aero Helmets

topflightpro 09-07-17 07:06 AM


Originally Posted by Poppit (Post 19845783)
BTW, the new Kask Mistral looks like a nice helmet, Aero Helmets

I've heard the Bambino's are out of stock in a lot of colors at Kask, and it is rumored that it is being discontinued. This could be the replacement.

carleton 09-07-17 09:00 AM

Remember, the wind doesn't care how much you spent on your helmet, it only cares about how it's shaped :D

taras0000 09-08-17 01:09 AM

Whaddya guys make of this?
http://i.imgur.com/WkjLshP.png

queerpunk 09-08-17 07:00 AM

oh wow. adjustable top tube. what could go wrong?

let's see though. it looks like an attempt to build a configurable superbike, mid-90s? the handlebars look like they're for a superman position, and at first I was going to suspect an O'bree Egg position was the purpose behind the others until (where's my cup of coffee?) I realized that the ones on the top tube aren't gonna steer the bike. So what the hell are they for?

topflightpro 09-08-17 07:19 AM

Maybe it is set up to add onto another bike for a make-shift tandem?

queerpunk 09-08-17 07:32 AM

but why bother, because if you convert it to a single, how's somebody supposed to ride it with that thing welded to the top tube?

unless - i'm starting to see that maybe the toptube handlebar and the seattube are bolted to the top tube? they look welded, too, but maybe that's just a skirt of some sort.

bitingduck 09-09-17 08:12 PM

Wouldn't it be cheaper to make a proper tandem and a single rather than that mess?

If you wanted to steer from the bullhorns you could have strings or a linkage to the steering bars. It wouldn't make it any weirder than it already is.

edit:
And I hope that extensible tube is keyed or ovalized. I can imagine some unpleasantness if it's round and it starts to slip.

On second inspection it looks like it would make a lousy back of a tandem because you'd be counting on the top tube for all the stiffness (lateral and vertical). It doesn't look like it's designed to bolt a downtube on the front of the BB.

carleton 09-09-17 09:35 PM


Originally Posted by Poppit (Post 19845777)
Do you have the same as Planet X, Dolan, Velodrome Shop, Brooks, Wiggle, Chain Reaction, Ribble, Merlin, etc.

No.

We can order from them, but they are not local to the US. It is an international transaction.

You don't have In and Out Burger?? :D

taras0000 09-09-17 10:37 PM

There are web-order places in NA, it's just they're all mountain bike and road focused. Performancebike, nashbar, coloroadocyclist, ...

There are very few websites in NA that sell track stuff, and those that do have a very limited scope/brands. Ben's cycle is decent, and I can't think of anyone else off the top of my head. Business cycles was really good when it was around but the owner retired. Sadly, there actually used to be more track part availability 15+ years ago even though the sport was smaller then.

carleton 09-09-17 10:56 PM

Retro-gression is pretty good. They are street fixie focused, but have a good selection of race gear as well. I've ordered quite a bit from them over the years (DA cranks, a set of Zen rings, fork, accessories, etc...). My last order was maybe 6 weeks ago. Their prices are the lowest I've seen.

https://www.retro-gression.com/

It's owned by @Scrodzilla here on bikeforums.

Poppit 09-10-17 06:30 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 19851647)
No.

We can order from them, but they are not local to the US. It is an international transaction.

You don't have In and Out Burger?? :D

Had to google that, never heard of them.

What about any of the mainland Europe shops such as https://www.bike24.com/

carleton 09-10-17 11:37 AM


Originally Posted by Poppit (Post 19851931)
Had to google that, never heard of them.

What about any of the mainland Europe shops such as https://www.bike24.com/

Poppit, we have large chain bicycle shops in the US like Performance Bike and Richardson Bike Mart, but they simply do not carry large selections of track racing equipment. You may see the fixie/track offering from a major manufacturer there (e.g. Specialized Langster), but you won't be able to get common race kit like: Shimano/Zen/FSA chainrings, Casco Warp 3 helmets, Mavic Ellipse, 3T Scatto, or Toshi/Velcro pedal straps.

In the US, cycling is a nice sport and track cycling is a niche within that niche sport. Living in Atlanta, which has a vibrant cycling race scene (Road, Criterium, CX, MTB, and Track) and 1 or 2 standard local bikes shop every 5-10 miles or so, track racing equipment is still hard to come by. The phrases I hear most often are, "No...we don't have that." and "We might be able to order it for you." If that's the case, I can order for myself for less money, have it here faster, and it will be delivered to my doorstep and I don't have to fight traffic to come pick up my parts. It's frustrating.

Even with such a vibrant scene, I still find myself often having to describe track racing to fellow COMPETITIVE CYCLISTS. "It's a 'VELO-drome'. It's an oval track...sorta like NASCAR. You may have seen it in the Olympics...."

brawlo 09-11-17 01:31 AM


Originally Posted by taras0000 (Post 19848033)
Whaddya guys make of this?
http://i.imgur.com/WkjLshP.png

Looking at the amount of padding or tape on those top "bars" I'm going to guess it's a bike that was used for long sessions of aero testing. The bars may be to rest the shoulders/chest on so as the position can be dialed in without fatigue affecting it too badly and the rider getting sloppy with position


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