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-   -   Need some advice on PAIR of Chrome Schwinn Paramount P15-9's (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=1210381)

miyagibike 08-15-20 01:47 PM

Need some advice on PAIR of Chrome Schwinn Paramount P15-9's
 
Hello, All, This is my first post on Bike Forums as I am a new subscriber but I have learned a lot from reading the threads containing expert advice especially on vintage bikes, etc. for years. I have a PAIR of beautiful, all-original (except both are missing some brake cables/housing, bar tape, and the 1972 is missing Brooks saddle and pedals), garage found (in-laws garage), never ridden?, all chrome Schwinn Paramount P15-9's, 1971 and 1972, both are 24"/61 cm c-t, Serial numbers: M71146 and D72251, respectively.

Unfortunately these are waaay too big for me and too big for anyone in my wife's family (that's why I feel they were never ridden), with virtually no wear on chain rings, sprockets, etc. (My father in-law apparently purchased these in 1972 because he got a good deal for buying the pair.) They were buried under a pile of ~ 15 other low-mid range (now vintage) 1970-1980's bicycles (Peugeots, Raleighs) in their garage that he had collected over the years all covered in dust and cobwebs. One Paramount even has the original tool kit with tools!

At first I thought the Paramounts were all rusted but after wiping off the decades-old "protective" dust layer I realized they were all-original and the chrome was in excellent shape. One had the original Campagnolo seat post but was missing the Brooks saddle and one side of the seat rail clamps.The chrome frames are nearly identical and both are in excellent condition with the 1971 frame having original red pinstriping which outlines the Nervex lugs. Both have very minimal specks of surface rust which disappear after only light buffing with car wax.

The 1971's frame decals are pristine with only a slight yellow patina to the white seat tube decal and and also to the clear background of the down tube decal. The 1972's seat tube decal has some scratches from "garage rash" (and possibly me untangling them from the pile) and also has the yellow patina on the seat tube and down tube decals. The bikes were so tangled up that I had to cut away some of the original cables/housing on the Paramounts and surrounding bikes to avoid causing any further scratches. The Paramounts are all-original otherwise including the original, still glued Clement 50 tubular tires, 3 out of 4 of which still hold air after nearly 50 years! (they are dry and brittle obviously and cannot be ridden as-is).

They are both Campagnolo-equipped with triple chain rings, Campagnolo Grand-Turismo rear derailleur, front derailleur, and down tube sifters. Cinelli handlebar stems, Giro D'Italia handlebars, center-pull brakes - labeled as "Schwinn-approved" (Dia Comp? perhaps), and Dia Comp brake levers (one bike with the added "turkey lifter" safety brake levers). The brake levers have original, intact but "gummy" brake hood covers. The 1971 has a Mavic Campionat du Monde tubular wheelset and the 1972 has a Weinmann tubular wheelset (both wheelsets have Campagnolo high flange hubs.) The 1971 has the original Brooks saddle in nice condition but with some scuffs and "chips". The 1972 's Brooks saddle and Campagnolo pedals are missing. The 1971 has original Campagnolo pedals without clips/straps. I will try to post images later - since I am unable now as a brand new subscriber.

So... does anyone have advice as to what I should do to be able to get them ready to sell since they are both way too big for me? (I would love one in 20"/51cm but they seem pretty rare!) I have read where leaving them as-is, (as original as possible) with only light cleaning to show their condition and letting the new owner do the overhaul is the way to go. Other posts might suggest overhauling myself and getting them ride-able, by replacing the tubular tires with new ones, adding cables/housing, bar tape, hood covers, re-packing bearings and making everything as period correct as possible in order to get top dollar. I'm very lucky to have 2 of these ("grail" bikes for many of us) but since I can't ride either of them it would be nice if someone else could. I would consider polishing one up and hanging it up somewhere as wall art as the chrome is really beautiful - and since its likely I'd never find another one, especially in my size.

I would appreciate your advice, comments and suggestions. Sorry for the long post - I got carried away! Thanks!

merziac 08-15-20 03:47 PM

miyagibike

:thumb: Welcome aboard, glad you found us, you're in the right place.

We need pics, good ones and lots of them, full on, details, components, lugs, full on, etc.

You need 10 posts, 5 X 2 days for them, its an anti-spam measure that serves us well.

Comment here and any other thread that interests you to get there. ;)

Pics you try to post before will go to a gallery and may get sent here.

SoccerBallXan 08-15-20 04:00 PM

Awesome bikes and neat story. I feel as if the future of these bikes depend on your interest choices. Are they special family relics that should he cleaned and hung for the next largest family member? Are they vintage race machines that you’d prefer to see a friend riding gleefully? Or are they a nice sum of cash to fund the next, best bike for yourself? The choices are in your hands and the decision is up to you! Sounds like all the bikes need are a regressing and new consumables.

Have fun!

edit: And post photos when you have a chance. :bike:

miyagibike 08-15-20 04:16 PM

Thanks, Merziac for your advice! I'll try to get photos on as soon as possible.

merziac 08-15-20 04:25 PM


Originally Posted by miyagibike (Post 21642962)
Thanks, Merziac for your advice! I'll try to get photos on as soon as possible.

Sounds good, keep responding. ;)

miyagibike 08-15-20 05:17 PM

Hey SoccerBallXan, Thanks for your advice!

The bikes don't really have any family attachment. When I first visited my in-laws about twenty years ago I noticed the huge pile-o-bikes in their garage. My late father in law was a Navy veteran who grew up in depression era Texas and as he eventually gained financial success he became the ultimate bargain hunter (read as "hoarder") and could not resist a "deal", especially for nice things he could never afford growing up - hence the pair of 24"/61cm chrome Paramounts he couldn't really ride being he was about 5'9". I'm about 5'6" and if I'll be lucky if I might? be able to test ride them by sitting on the top tube (at great personal risk!)

The rest of my wife's family was not interested in the pile-o-bikes taking up valuable garage space and ignored it for ~ 30 years (as it was an unspoken family rule that "you do not touch Dad's stuff!") However, I could not stand not knowing what was in that mystery pile so I remember at one of my first family dinners with my new in laws all sitting around the dinner table, out of the blue I asked my father in law, "would you mind if I sorted out the bikes in your garage?" Everyone's jaw dropped mid-forkful while thinking, "he did not just ask Dad that!" *Deafening SILENCE* Then he responds cheerfully, "why sure, have at it, and take whatever you want!" I said "Thanks!" and kept eating while everyone else started trying to breathe again! I have had them hanging in my garage for ~ 10 years now, hoping I'd have a sudden growth spurt in my 50's, but it was not to be.

My step son at 6"4" is the only one I know tall enough that could possibly ride them, but two other vintage bikes I rescued and restored from his grandfather's (my father in law's) bike pile and gifted to him when he was a teenager then again as a college kid were sadly neglected then eventually "went missing". I have hopes that my step son, now an employed, successful 27 year old adult may someday appreciate the history of the Paramount, so I may keep one for him - just in case. Until then, that Paramount might become 61cm, super-shiny wall art in my house, while the other one I hope can be cherished by someone who can ride it. I have always enjoyed tinkering on bikes with their elegant simplicity - probably spending way more time wrenching than riding. It would be an adolescent's dream come true if they were only my size, but I will still enjoy "getting under the hood" so to speak!

Thanks again for the input!

merziac 08-15-20 05:50 PM

2 more for 5 today. ;)

3alarmer 08-15-20 06:55 PM

This is the bike you describe...but from 1973.
 
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7380cb0c62.jpg

...24" is a popular size, if a little on the large size on average. I can't imagine you'll have trouble selling them if the chrome is good. And Schwinn chrome is usually pretty good.

miyagibike 08-15-20 07:29 PM

Hey, 3alarmer, Wow! Really a super-pretty bike! Did (does) your 1973 have tubular wheels/tires originally? Those look like 700c clinchers maybe? Also my 1971 and 1972 both have tubular wheels/tires and "Schwinn-approved" (DiaComp?) center pull brakes. On one of the bikes I might consider switching to 700c clinchers which would probably? need long-reach side pulls, to allow for more options/convenience for a potential new owner. I'd be getting away from it's original configuration though and since it would most likely be sold (since 24"/61cm is way big for me), I wonder if that might hurt its value for a potential buyer/collector. Any thoughts on that would be appreciated. Did you you add the side pull brakes and if so did you need to have long reach brakes or use a drop bolt? Once again, it's a very, very nice ride! I hope someday that I might find one in 20"/50cm. I'm lucky to have 2 Paramounts but it's heartbreaking that I can't ride them and if/when they're sold I may not get my hands on another! As I mentioned in an earlier post, I might keep one for wall art but that would a shame and it would taunt me every time I walked by it!! Thanks for the photos!

Salamandrine 08-15-20 07:36 PM

I vote leave them as mostly is. Clean and polish only. Give the bikes a tune up. I'm not a flipper however, just a bike enthusiast. But to me a tastelessly modified original Paramount has less value than one that's been left alone.

Leave new wheels or re-rimming for the buyer. If some potential buy wants clinchers IMO they are better off building a new set of wheels and stashing the originals. If you want to make it rideable, glue on some new tires. The existing 50 year old glue is going to be all dry and nasty and a hassle to get off, but in this case you will need to clean it off. IF you choose to do this expect some tedious work.

There's not really any harm in cleaning and repacking the bearings in new grease. Grease from 1972 usually has the consistency of parmesan cheese by now. I suggest you not replace the balls if the bikes were not ridden much. IME generic grade 25 bearings are never as smooth as the official campy bearings. If you don't have experience doing this and adjusting open bearings, you probably shouldn't start with these.

I guess you have to replace the cables and housing since you cut them. Leave the shift cables if they are original and not cut. Won't hurt to lube them. The brakes are almost certainly Weinmann, but they are the same design as DiaCompe, since the had a licensing agreement. It isn't going to hurt the value to get replacement black brake pads from Koolstop for the brakes. That way they will work. Make sure you get the right size pads. There are several variations.

Oh, and the only genuine gum rubber brake hoods you can buy these days are the Rustines. They do make them for Weinmann.

Lascauxcaveman 08-15-20 07:38 PM

Don't even think of changing anything on them; interested parties for this type of bike would rather receive them in original condition and make any changes themselves.

Just my size. So you should definitely sell one of them to me. OTOH, they are fairly valuable bikes, so I'm not sure I could afford one :(

If you really want one, you'll be able to find the same bike in a smaller size. Just be patient and keep looking. :thumb:

gugie 08-15-20 07:39 PM

Oof! My size! Trade or sell?

Interested!

miyagibike 08-15-20 07:45 PM

Lol! Thanks, you're making it easy for me! In the meantime I'll try to figure out the best way to post images since I'm kind of a low-tech dinosaur (aka. a threaded, tapered spindle, cup and cone bottom bracket guy vs the "newfangled" external bearing or thread-together type!) It took me over an hour and a half and 2 tries to post my first thread!

3alarmer 08-15-20 09:07 PM


Originally Posted by miyagibike (Post 21643261)
Hey, 3alarmer, Wow! Really a super-pretty bike! Did (does) your 1973 have tubular wheels/tires originally? Those look like 700c clinchers maybe? Also my 1971 and 1972 both have tubular wheels/tires and "Schwinn-approved" (DiaComp?) center pull brakes. On one of the bikes I might consider switching to 700c clinchers which would probably? need long-reach side pulls, to allow for more options/convenience for a potential new owner. I'd be getting away from it's original configuration though and since it would most likely be sold (since 24"/61cm is way big for me), I wonder if that might hurt its value for a potential buyer/collector. Any thoughts on that would be appreciated. Did you you add the side pull brakes and if so did you need to have long reach brakes or use a drop bolt? Once again, it's a very, very nice ride! I hope someday that I might find one in 20"/50cm. I'm lucky to have 2 Paramounts but it's heartbreaking that I can't ride them and if/when they're sold I may not get my hands on another! As I mentioned in an earlier post, I might keep one for wall art but that would a shame and it would taunt me every time I walked by it!! Thanks for the photos!

...the bike in the photo was a trade in from some guy who liked to tour, who bought a different bike from a LBS over in West Sacramento and did not want to keep this one. I bought it from a mechanic who worked there, who grabbed it up but realized he never rode it, because it was a little too big for him, too. AFAIK, this was how the guy who originally owned it ordered it up from the original shop..it was not uncommon to spec them specifically with alterations in components.

So I would not worry too much about "originality" per se. Original on a 60's-70-s Paramount was whatever the original owner wanted it to be. For myself, it makes no sense to have a touring bike with tubulars on it, but I wouldn't do much to yours if you plan on selling them. Any money or effort you invest will not be recouped at time of sale. The clincher wheels, as you see them, are 27" wheels. This was not an unusual setup at the time, because with 27" wheels, you can easily reach the rims on a bike like this with a lot of wheel/tyre clearance, using just about any brake available at the time. It would have been hard to set it up with 700c clincher wheels and those side pull brakes, because most of the available options for high quality side pulls at the time did not have long reach.

Again, if you cannot ride either of them, and decide to sell one or both, doing nothing is far and away your best option. Whoever buys it will have his own idea off how he wants to set it up, and will appreciate not having to reimburse you for money spent on stufff like different wheels, brakes, etc.

The ride on these, with long stays and long wheel base, is kind off like floating along. I don't ride it to ride fast, but going along the river it's just a fun, kind of cruising magic carpet.

3alarmer 08-15-20 09:11 PM


Originally Posted by gugie (Post 21643276)
Oof! My size! Trade or sell?

Interested!


...you should sell one to gugie . He does favors for everyone this side of the Mississippi, and he deserves to be rewarded. :)

thinktubes 08-15-20 09:38 PM

TL;DR, no white space. Need an ex. summary.

cudak888 08-15-20 09:51 PM


Originally Posted by thinktubes (Post 21643383)
TL;DR, no white space. Need an ex. summary.

"Have Paramounts, they're not perfect, want to sell, what do I do?"

-Kurt

Pcampeau 08-15-20 10:35 PM

I’m hoping someone on this forum got a screaming good deal on a chrome Paramount that’s too small for them and a trade happens.

Congratulations on a nice score anyway!

cb400bill 08-16-20 03:36 AM

Please do not make buying or selling offers in non-Marketplace forums.

Bad Lag 08-16-20 11:42 AM

What are the frame sizes?

trainman999 08-16-20 01:00 PM

miyagibike Have tis 20" chrome Paramount will consider trading it.. sent you a PM
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d15face2a0.jpg

miyagibike 08-16-20 04:05 PM

Hi, Bad Lag. (Please read Post #1 for more info). Both frames are 24"/61 CM. A 1971 and a 1972, Chrome P15-9 's . I'm looking for and have already received some great advice regarding what work is most appropriate for me to do in order to get the bikes ready if they end up being sold. So far I have ordered new tubulars, bar tape and will most likely clean/polish everything in order to be able to post accurate photos. As a brand new poster on Bike Forums I am still trying to reach my minimum 10 initial posts (I already have 5 posts in 24 hours so I have to wait to post more) in order to be allowed to add images. I think I will try to really polish one up, repack bearings (as has been suggested) and get it rideable, if only for the pure joy of working on a Paramount, since both bikes are way too big for me! The other I may leave completely as-is (as has also been suggested) other than a quick cleaning so the photos will do them justice! I hope to be able to post photos soon. Thanks!

merziac 08-16-20 04:18 PM


Originally Posted by miyagibike (Post 21644512)
Hi, Bad Lag. (Please read Post #1 for more info). Both frames are 24"/61 CM. A 1971 and a 1972, Chrome P15-9 's . I'm looking for and have already received some great advice regarding what work is most appropriate for me to do in order to get the bikes ready if they end up being sold. So far I have ordered new tubulars, bar tape and will most likely clean/polish everything in order to be able to post accurate photos. As a brand new poster on Bike Forums I am still trying to reach my minimum 10 initial posts (I already have 5 posts in 24 hours so I have to wait to post more) in order to be allowed to add images. I think I will try to really polish one up, repack bearings (as has been suggested) and get it rideable, if only for the pure joy of working on a Paramount, since both bikes are way too big for me! The other I may leave completely as-is (as has also been suggested) other than a quick cleaning so the photos will do them justice! I hope to be able to post photos soon. Thanks!

:thumb: good plan although we are normally not that patient as you can tell.

One suggestion I have would be to not glue the new tubulars, maybe tape them as this can be a finicky process that many who embrace them like to do themselves.

Not sure but if they aren't in your wheelhouse, they can be a whole other challenge by themselves, cleaning the rims, stretching the new ones, correctly mounting, gluing or taping, etc.

I sent a pm also as I have a 19 1/2in ctc that I would trade . ;)

I would also respond to all posts here as the 10 post rule will go faster.

Classtime 08-16-20 05:07 PM

miyagibike how long do we have to wait for pictures?

merziac 08-16-20 05:35 PM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 21644606)
miyagibike how long do we have to wait for pictures?

Patience grasshopper. ;)

He's not at 10 posts yet and says he may wait until he gets one cleaned up.


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