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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

Velocivixen 04-06-18 10:54 AM

@Salubrious - The hub says "71 2" and has a plastic oil cap. The front, as you see, has a band in the center of the hub for oiling. I've got a couple of other '71's and even a 1970 which don't have that type of front hub.

Salubrious 04-06-18 12:54 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 20268570)
@Salubrious - The hub says "71 2" and has a plastic oil cap. The front, as you see, has a band in the center of the hub for oiling. I've got a couple of other '71's and even a 1970 which don't have that type of front hub.

The eyed heron cranks went out well before that- it seems that Raleigh had parts which may have been laying around for years before installation...

BigChief 04-06-18 02:27 PM

I haven't seen enough examples to be definitive, but so far it seems that the heron eyes disappeared when the chainwheel changed from 48T to 46T in the early 70s.

dweenk 04-06-18 02:31 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 20268570)
@Salubrious - The hub says "71 2" and has a plastic oil cap. The front, as you see, has a band in the center of the hub for oiling. I've got a couple of other '71's and even a 1970 which don't have that type of front hub.

I have a 1970 or '71 step through Sports with a front hub that has an oil port. It does not have the extra chainwheel braces though.

Velocivixen 04-06-18 03:50 PM

@BigChief, @Salubrious, and @dweenk - to add to the mystery the tooth count on the heron chainwheel is 44.

When did Raleigh switch to rounded crank arms? When did SA switch to plastic oil ports?

So far have finished the headset. Cotters out and locking is off. The adjustable cup is BONE dry and hard to turn. The bike is currently laying on its side with penetrating oil around the adjustment cup.

Ok, all my R20’s have plastic oil ports, rounded crank arms, but NONE have eyes on the herons. My R20’s are 1970, 1971’s and I th No a 1973.

Arrowana 04-06-18 04:04 PM

1 Attachment(s)
My LTD-3 handles snow better than I expected. I can't wait for it to be warm enough to ditch the studs.

Mooo 04-06-18 04:10 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 20268511)
I know Sturmey Archer sells a friction shifter for it's 3 speed hubs. Has anyone used just a generic, like a SunTour friction shifter for a AW 3 speed? Does a generic shifter have enough throw to get all 3 gears? Is there enough friction to hold the shift in place?

Thoughts? Anyone ever use one?

Yes. I'll probably do it again at some point, but don't know that I'd recommend it for anyone else. I did like the Suntour power ratchet shifters though. They don't drift or loosen up. I also liked the stupidly simple cable routing and that it wasn't really noticeable while riding.

clubman 04-06-18 05:33 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 20269215)
@BigChief, @Salubrious, and @dweenk - to add to the mystery the tooth count on the heron chainwheel is 44.

When did Raleigh switch to rounded crank arms? When did SA switch to plastic oil ports?

So far have finished the headset. Cotters out and locking is off. The adjustable cup is BONE dry and hard to turn. The bike is currently laying on its side with penetrating oil around the adjustment cup.

Ok, all my R20’s have plastic oil ports, rounded crank arms, but NONE have eyes on the herons. My R20’s are 1970, 1971’s and I th No a 1973.

I think most of the round cranks were either shorter, had less teeth or both. Typical of junior bikes maybe, and with that Twenty's of course. Vv, how long are your crank arms?

johnnyspaghetti 04-06-18 06:53 PM


Originally Posted by Arrowana (Post 20269246)
My LTD-3 handles snow better than I expected. I can't wait for it to be warm enough to ditch the studs.

We get 3" more Sunday. Today was colder than it should have been

BigChief 04-06-18 07:16 PM


Originally Posted by Mooo (Post 20269257)
Yes. I'll probably do it again at some point, but don't know that I'd recommend it for anyone else. I did like the Suntour power ratchet shifters though. They don't drift or loosen up. I also liked the stupidly simple cable routing and that it wasn't really noticeable while riding.

I like the SunTour Power shifters too. They're my favorite friction shifters. Had em on my old Grand Prix. Nice feel to them since there's no friction to overcome as you add tension to the cable. The friction only comes when you release tension. Rachet up, friction down. Today, I have the handlebar mounted thumb shifter version working the left side bell crank on my S5 Sprite.

Velocivixen 04-06-18 07:37 PM

@clubman - crank arms are 165mm.
@dweenk what are “extra chainwheel braces” you mentioned?

The adjustable cup is coming out very slowly. I’m having to try to hold the tool on and hit the other end with a hammer......it’s coming, but the threads are extremely clean and dry!

Any tricks to get my thin tool to stay on that adjustable cup? And yes, I have the correct tool.

BigChief 04-06-18 08:18 PM

I had a project bike with a crabby adjustable BB cup. It is a pest to unscrew it with the thin Park Tool spanner if the threads are tight. I just kept holding the spanner tight against the cup and tapping with the hammer. The bigger problem was reinstalling the cup. It was so tight that I couldn't really tell if I was cross threading it or not. I did my best to feel if the thread was engaging with one hand while I was holding the spindle in place with the other. After a while, I decided to just bite the bullet and start tapping the spanner to screw it back in. I was lucky.
edit...It wasn't until after I went through all this that I remembered that I had a Bikesmith fixed cup tool. That has a big square block with a channel that fits the raised section of the cup. I think the hole in the block would fit over the spindle. Don't know, but I'll give it a try next time I run into a tight adjustable cup. It would be much easier to hold that block than the Park tool.

browngw 04-06-18 09:17 PM

I have an old humongous 18" Adjustable spanner with clean sharp jaws that will grab the raised portion of the adjustable bearing. I gives lots of leverage and a little ATF (Transmission fluid) is a good lube for the threads. It seeps in a bit.

JohnDThompson 04-06-18 09:32 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20269619)
It wasn't until after I went through all this that I remembered that I had a Bikesmith fixed cup tool. That has a big square block with a channel that fits the raised section of the cup. I think the hole in the block would fit over the spindle. Don't know, but I'll give it a try next time I run into a tight adjustable cup. It would be much easier to hold that block than the Park tool.

Yes, it does work. I've used the Bikesmith tool on several BSOs with tight adjustable cups that the Park HCW-11 couldn't move.

Velocivixen 04-06-18 09:35 PM

I got the adjustable cup out. I was using the wrong type of hammer. The threads looked clean and very dry. I used a Dremel with a wire brush to go over the threads, degreaser then dried. Greased up the threads and used the cup as a thread chaser.....

Done for the night. Thanks for all the support.

Chaser95 04-06-18 11:10 PM

Yesterday I asked about the gearing of the AW and S3C hubs. I heeded Mooo's advice about the Sturmey Archer heritage site and found they are both geared the same. -25%/ D /+33.3% So I will call my perceived difference a change of bikes and lack of experience. I may be getting some drag from the BB if the grease in it looks anything like the headset did. It was very hard and dry. I expect to find the same condition with the front wheel. I have contacted RHM and we will discuss my saddle options next week. I still have the Western Flyer in pieces so I will borrow its cheap saddle for more fine tuning of the 72 Sports. At least I will be able to ride it. On the subject of it being a '72, according to a Raleigh catalog on another site, the '72s had adjustable brakes.......mine does not. Maybe it is because it has the S3C? Lastly, as I search for a rear brake assembly and handle what will be period correct for the 72? Thanks!

BigChief 04-07-18 04:34 AM

Raleigh used essentially the same made in house levers and calipers on the Sports since the 1930s with only a few differences. For a long time, these required a cable with a barrel end for the lever and a ball end for the caliper. Replacement cables were sold as complete units with adjusters attached. As you can imagine, these are a pest in 2018. You have to either silver braze a ball end onto a plain cable or use a knarp if you can't find the correct length original. Sometime, I think in the late 60s, they changed to a simple pinch bolt on the caliper. These are what you want. Pretty sure this is what you have on the front of your 72 now. I don't think the auto adjust levers came out until 74 or so. I don't care for them myself. If you find a caliper that originally came with an auto adjust lever, you will need to add a cable adjuster bolt so try to find a caliper with one already in place or another rusty caliper you can take it from.

Mooo 04-07-18 05:53 AM

I look at what the antique airplane guys do - they have a really practical approach to this. Basically, if it affects safe operation, then modern replacements are OK.

This is a little deeper than it first appears. If you are willing to control how it's operated, then you can live with things like expander tube brakes, no radio, no starter, etc. But if you're going to take the occasional passenger out of a tower-controlled field, then nobody's going to give you any grief at all for things like swapping those out for something a little more modern. ... and in general, far better that it should be lightly modified and flown than sit in storage.

In this case, I'd probably put a lever and back brake from an old Schwinn Varsity on it until I found a lever & brake from a 1970's Raleigh (that matches your front, or do both brakes) at your local bike coop.

markk900 04-07-18 06:35 AM


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 20268540)
It is absurdly comfortable for the rides of 2-3 hour duration I normally do on this bike. I just purchased a new B67 in brown for my DL1 (S.W.A.T) to replace a bodged together BSA cover on a Brooks frame. It is also good right out the box.

The B67 was the first new Brooks I ever bought....while it was fine out of the box I will say I clearly remember the day I went out for a ride and it was finally "broken in" - it was noticeable how not noticeable it was! That saddle now moves around as I love it so much. Took maybe 200km of riding and it helped to sweat a bit...

Have not yet managed to get the same result on the almost new Flyer Special I have (hard as a rock), and I am working on the RHM special (effectively new) but not enough miles yet......

markk900 04-07-18 06:37 AM


Originally Posted by Mooo (Post 20269947)
...and in general, far better that it should be lightly modified and flown than sit in storage.

100% agree!

BigChief 04-07-18 07:28 AM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 20269977)
The B67 was the first new Brooks I ever bought....while it was fine out of the box I will say I clearly remember the day I went out for a ride and it was finally "broken in" - it was noticeable how not noticeable it was! That saddle now moves around as I love it so much. Took maybe 200km of riding and it helped to sweat a bit...

Have not yet managed to get the same result on the almost new Flyer Special I have (hard as a rock), and I am working on the RHM special (effectively new) but not enough miles yet......

The B67 looks to be a fine saddle. From the pictures it looks the same as the B66 but with a single rail. Up until recently, well 10 or so years, to me that's recently, I was prejudiced against sprung saddles from the experience I had back in the day with those awful mattress saddles that came on the lower priced 3 speeds. After I had a chance to ride one, the B66 was like a revelation. Now, I think they're the perfect saddle for upright roadster riding, even for longer distances.

dweenk 04-07-18 08:46 AM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 20269215)
@BigChief, @Salubrious, and @dweenk - to add to the mystery the tooth count on the heron chainwheel is 44.

When did Raleigh switch to rounded crank arms? When did SA switch to plastic oil ports?

So far have finished the headset. Cotters out and locking is off. The adjustable cup is BONE dry and hard to turn. The bike is currently laying on its side with penetrating oil around the adjustment cup.

Ok, all my R20ís have plastic oil ports, rounded crank arms, but NONE have eyes on the herons. My R20ís are 1970, 1971ís and I th No a 1973.

I have a Sports camelback with rounded crank arms (145mm long), maybe the short crank arms were rounded.

BigChief 04-07-18 09:18 AM

As for the timeline of plastic oil ports goes, with the AW hubs I have on hand I can only narrow it down to 1956 (steel) 1964 (plastic)

Mooo 04-07-18 09:51 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20270217)
As for the timeline of plastic oil ports goes, with the AW hubs I have on hand I can only narrow it down to 1956 (steel) 1964 (plastic)

I have a 61-8 TCW with a metal port, which I believe to be original. Can't help much past that.

Ballenxj 04-07-18 10:14 AM

Spoke to a guy selling a Raleigh Sports with a Sturmy Archer 3 spd yesterday. He tried to talk me into a more expensive bike called an Electra with a Shimano nexus hub, stating that the old SA hubs are known to malfunction for no reason, and almost impossible to rebuild? :foo:

Velocivixen 04-07-18 10:21 AM


Originally Posted by Ballenxj (Post 20270308)
Spoke to a guy selling a Raleigh Sports with a Sturmy Archer 3 spd yesterday. He tried to talk me into a more expensive bike called an Electra with a Shimano nexus hub, stating that the old SA hubs are known to malfunction for no reason, and almost impossible to rebuild? :foo:


Now thatís a hoot! So what did you say? :roflmao2:

markk900 04-07-18 10:47 AM

Tell him you feel so badly about his having that unreliable Raleigh around that you will help him out and take it off his hands - and you'll only charge him $20 for doing him this favour.....

Ballenxj 04-07-18 10:48 AM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 20270325)
Now thatís a hoot! So what did you say? :roflmao2:

It was a phone conversation about me thinking about buying the bike. I didn't say anything since he was the "expert."
I will use the information he gave me when making an offer on that bike with the worthless 3 speed hub. But only after looking at the bike first. He says I need to make an appointment as he's in an out a lot. Fair enough. I'm in no hurry. He sounded like a dealer while stating he is not, but does have around 200 bikes to sell. I almost admire the guy. ;)

dweenk 04-07-18 10:59 AM

@Velocivixen

Sorry I missed your reply about "extra braces". I was referring to the chainwheel arms between the herons.

'The Headbadge': Raleigh Sports Component Evolution Chart

paulb_in_bkln 04-07-18 11:55 AM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 20269722)
I was using the wrong type of hammer.

Not metric?


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