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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

DQRider 06-05-19 01:26 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20963735)
Considering how crazy cool this bike is, I wouldn't think twice about adding a modern Sturmey Archer IG/drum brake hub. It deserves one!

Aw shucks, BC! :o

Thanks, though. I'm thinking I will save that for a winter project. Building a wheel is still a new process to me - I've only done two successfully, and they needed re-truing within a week.

But right now the 1949 Raleigh Clubman is back in the workstand. I know I explained this project in an earlier post here, but now I'm getting close to completion. Photos coming soon...

Road Fan 06-05-19 03:00 PM

For my Rudge Aero Special return to road build (or after), I've been daydreaming about supplementing the gear range of a Sturmey AW, FW, or FM with some kind of derailleur to add range for local hilly roads. My question is managing chain wrap. If I could go maybe 46/30 or 46/36 in the front, I'd need to wrap 10 or 16 teeth. I have talked here about using an old Cyclo chain tension arm (attached to a bracket under the chainstay), which looks like it is the main part of an old Cyclo Standard. to do this. But the length of the arm is about 2.75," and if it pivoted a full 180 degrees it could shorten the chain by a maximum of twice its length, 5.5 inches, which would barely give 10 teeth of chain wrap. While I don't like this result, I think the reasoning makes sense.

So it indicates I can't get a big, near-modern chain wrap without a modern long cage arm.

I think I would have the same issue if I was going with a supplemental rear derailleur. Here I'd want to use at least a rear double with a 17/26 dual cog block, needing a 9-tooth wrap, about the same.

If this is true, you can't really have a deep granny (30 gear inches or so) with vintage components, due to the short swing arm at least on a Cyclo Standard. Does this seem right?

Salubrious 06-05-19 03:12 PM

Keep in mind modern chain wrap has a lot to do with modern chains.

paulb_in_bkln 06-06-19 07:38 AM

Thinking about that Trek 410 and seat tube angle. For that large frame (24-inch/61 cm seat tube) a 71 degree seat tube angle like the Raleighs would bring the seat back .8 inches. Is that a lot?

JaccoW 06-06-19 09:43 AM


Originally Posted by DQRider (Post 20963403)
Speaking of Scorchers, my Pashley Roadster conversion has become my favorite "Just grab it and go" bike. And not only for trips around the neighborhood, either.

https://i.imgur.com/leoOdwR.png

Here she is in Hastings, MN, where we rode several branches of the Vermillion River Trail system. I call her "Pepper", for Pashley Path Racer. We put on over 20 miles last Sunday in the rolling hills west of town. It was a wonderful day out.

3-speed content: Does anyone here have any experience with the modern Sturmey Archer X-RD 3 or 4 drum-brake hubs? I am thinking of mounting one on this bike, so I have more options as to where I can ride it. I haven't had to walk this up a hill yet, but have come very close.



I think a 3-speed hub could work very well! You could even go for a 27.2mm seat post shifter for a cleaner setup with less cables... provided it fits of course.

What kind of tyres are those? They look like cream skinwall models?

clubman 06-06-19 10:36 AM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 20964104)

I think I would have the same issue if I was going with a supplemental rear derailleur. Here I'd want to use at least a rear double with a 17/26 dual cog block, needing a 9-tooth wrap, about the same.

If this is true, you can't really have a deep granny (30 gear inches or so) with vintage components, due to the short swing arm at least on a Cyclo Standard. Does this seem right?

If you want old school derailleurs, you'll never shift a 17-26 freewheel. Cyclo Standards generally shifted in 2 tooth increments and not well at that. If you added a double chainwheel, I'd expect it to blow up.

DQRider 06-06-19 10:49 AM


Originally Posted by JaccoW (Post 20965316)
I think a 3-speed hub could work very well! You could even go for a 27.2mm seat post shifter for a cleaner setup with less cables... provided it fits of course.

What kind of tyres are those? They look like cream skinwall models?

I'm trying to find a nice old brass quadrant shifter for the top tube, but I'm not even sure if the cable pull is the same.

That's the first time I've ever seen a seat-tube shifter. I wonder how hard that would be to get used to. :foo:

The tires are Fairweather Touring "Cruise" Tire, 700x38c - Cream from Velo Orange. Nicest, smoothest tires I've ever ridden on.


Salubrious 06-06-19 10:58 AM


Originally Posted by DQRider (Post 20965450)
I'm trying to find a nice old brass quadrant shifter for the top tube, but I'm not even sure if the cable pull is the same.



It is.

JaccoW 06-06-19 03:21 PM


Originally Posted by DQRider (Post 20965450)
[SIZE="3"]I'm trying to find a nice old brass quadrant shifter for the top tube, but I'm not even sure if the cable pull is the same.

That's the first time I've ever seen a seat-tube shifter. I wonder how hard that would be to get used to. :foo:

The tires are Fairweather Touring "Cruise" Tire, 700x38c - Cream from Velo Orange. Nicest, smoothest tires I've ever ridden on.[/SIZE]


As always with Sturmey Archer parts; British eBay. (Sturmey Archer Quadrant).
You might be able to get them for prices as low as £25.00 but generally they seem to go for £45.00 + shipping.

As far as compatibility, pretty much every regular SA 3-speed seems compatible with any shifter with the exception of the K-model and fixed gear versions. Here is someone who mounted a Quadrant shifter on his Pashley Guv'Nor as well as someone who went the seat post approach.

Those are some nice looking tyres, and of course that's a Japanese brand. :lol:
Fairly cheap directly from Fairweather in Japan, they have some nice stuff and a fair bit of collaboration with Panaracer and Nitto.

VO: Fairweather (x Panaracer) Touring "Cruise" Tire, 700x38c

Guess I have some thinking to do.

EDIT:
https://i.imgur.com/9v4mBDI.jpg
Seat post mount with shim above seat post clamp.
(Image by Forrester)

Road Fan 06-06-19 03:43 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20965074)
Thinking about that Trek 410 and seat tube angle. For that large frame (24-inch/61 cm seat tube) a 71 degree seat tube angle like the Raleighs would bring the seat back .8 inches. Is that a lot?

About 20 mm, it certainly could be a lot, depending on your needs to get a good position.

Road Fan 06-06-19 03:56 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20965425)
If you want old school derailleurs, you'll never shift a 17-26 freewheel. Cyclo Standards generally shifted in 2 tooth increments and not well at that. If you added a double chainwheel, I'd expect it to blow up.

What about a wide double in the front, maybe 9 tooth spread, with just the original 17 tooth on the Sturmey Archer hub?

Is there any vintage-style derailleur that could handle a wide double?

Recall that to build his custom René Herse, Jan Heine made or adapted a suicide shifter to handle a wide compact double. I take a little confidence from this. Plus I’m using a simple Huret with a 39/53, no pins or indexing.

clubman 06-06-19 04:23 PM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 20965989)
What about a wide double in the front, maybe 9 tooth spread, with just the original 17 tooth on the Sturmey Archer hub?

Is there any vintage-style derailleur that could handle a wide double?

Recall that to build his custom René Herse, Jan Heine made or adapted a suicide shifter to handle a wide compact double. I take a little confidence from this. Plus I’m using a simple Huret with a 39/53, no pins or indexing.

I think Huret would be the way to go. Allvit's were strong like bull and even some of the later Challenger models looked the part and performed well. Perhaps even Svelto but I never liked them.
edit. So if you're talking a single rear with a double front, you'll still need a tensioner. I think a rear freewheel will give you more range, after all, an AW already has a very wide range, it's the in between gear inches that are missing. Hence the old corncob style freewheels.

BigChief 06-07-19 05:48 AM

Just something I've thought about and have no idea how successful it would be but...There are always two 1/16" shims on a standard SA driver. Two 1/8" cogs should still leave room for the circlip. Between dished and flat cogs, it might be possible to set up a dual cog derailleur system with the standard driver and cogs. If you used a FW or S5 hub, you would have a ton of range.

clubman 06-07-19 07:32 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20966639)
Just something I've thought about and have no idea how successful it would be but...There are always two 1/16" shims on a standard SA driver. Two 1/8" cogs should still leave room for the circlip. Between dished and flat cogs, it might be possible to set up a dual cog derailleur system with the standard driver and cogs. If you used a FW or S5 hub, you would have a ton of range.

Not a bad idea, especially if you use 3/32" cogs for even more adjustibility. A mechanic friend of mine mills SA cogs from old hyperglide cogs with a dremel. You'll need more spacers and of course you'd need a compatible front chainring/crank.

Maybe too much work to add a few gears to a roadster? I think this is why we have many rides.

Team Miami 06-07-19 08:12 AM

That looks amazing!

BigChief 06-07-19 12:51 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20966794)
Not a bad idea, especially if you use 3/32" cogs for even more adjustibility. A mechanic friend of mine mills SA cogs from old hyperglide cogs with a dremel. You'll need more spacers and of course you'd need a compatible front chainring/crank.

Maybe too much work to add a few gears to a roadster? I think this is why we have many rides.

Yeah, I've never put any of my wild ideas into action. The only thing that really motivates me are preservation/restoration projects. I do enjoy getting unused, broken vintage bikes on the road again. The only exception being my scorcher, but, in that case, it was over painted, the sheet metal was gone and the whole front end wasn't original. I wouldn't have sacrificed a more complete example.

jackbombay 06-07-19 11:16 PM

Lowest "safe" gearing for an AW?
 
Hello!

I've long been a fan of Sturmey Archers, and have several, my favorite is a "resto-mod" Hercules I built up about 15 years ago, its a superb townie, but I do now and again take it on longer rides.

Some details on the bike, I think its a 63', I had some cable stops brazed onto to the frame to lose the clamp on ones, got it powder coated semi gloss black, retapped the BB to accept "modern" square taper BBs, dug up a Ti BB out of my parts box, aluminum stem and bars, Mafac center pull brakes, and built a 700c wheelset for it built around a NOS 28 hole AW I got off ebay. I did open up the hub and clean it throughly and re-oil. The chrome fenders are in pretty good shape too.

Last weekend I actually rode a century on it, I've been biking a lot this spring and summer so I hit the century pretty hard and managed an average speed of 16 MPH, a little over 6 hours of pedaling. The ride was around lake tahoe with an out and back leg to Truckee. Was a great day weather wise too!

Last november I rode a century on my road bike with 11,000' of climbing, and I'm more fit now than I was then... There is a bruiser of a ride in early July that I may want to ride on my 3 speed, the stats are 129 miles and 15,000+' of climbing... The tahoe century was sort of flat, 5,000' of climbing, I ran 52/24 gearing and it was perfect really, I could sit and pedal the climbs comfortably in 1st gear, or click it to second and stand up and smash pretty comfortably, but there is a lot more climbing on the perspective upcoming ride, and I'll have to pedal easier than I did on the tahoe century to ride for an additional 5 hours or so, so I'll need lower gears, much lower gears I think...

SA says you shouldn't go below a 2:1 ratio, meaning I should only drop to a 48 up front, but I read of one guy that ran 40/21 which is a bit lower than SA recommends, but I have no idea how hard he rode it...

I'd love to go 42/24, but I'd hate to blow up this hub, not finishing the ride due to a mechanical would be a bummer, but to break my baby would really suck. The lower top speed of 42/24 would be about 18 MPH, where the 52/24 is about 22 MPH, I'm fine with being spun out at 18 MPH.

So, anyone have experience with gearing SA's way down and how they fare under such circumstances? As the load on the hub gears is largely relative to my weight, I weigh 158 pounds...


Couple pics for you guys, EDIT/// I can't post pics yet.

jackbombay 06-07-19 11:26 PM


Originally Posted by horatio (Post 20958982)
Update on the '52 Sports. WD40 flush of the IGH got things moving again, but I've been unable to hook up and ride, as the front tire has succumbed to dry-rot. Anyone successfully coax a modern 700c wheel with 100mm hub into these forks? I'm not quite strong enough to pry them apart, so I may do a cold set with threaded rod.

When I've done this in the past I've done one leg at a time, so I can make sure that each leg bends half the additional required width, which keeps the wheel centered under the bike, so it will still ride no hands.

As for leverage, is the fork out of the bike?

horatio 06-08-19 01:13 AM


Originally Posted by jackbombay (Post 20968296)
When I've done this in the past I've done one leg at a time, so I can make sure that each leg bends half the additional required width, which keeps the wheel centered under the bike, so it will still ride no hands.

As for leverage, is the fork out of the bike?

Thanks for the info. Fork is still in the bike, on the repair stand. Would they be easier to bend out of the frame?

Johno59 06-08-19 03:14 AM

Sun Tour shifters on seatpost
 

Originally Posted by DQRider (Post 20965450)
I'm trying to find a nice old brass quadrant shifter for the top tube, but I'm not even sure if the cable pull is the same.

That's the first time I've ever seen a seat-tube shifter. I wonder how hard that would be to get used to. :foo:

The tires are Fairweather Touring "Cruise" Tire, 700x38c - Cream from Velo Orange. Nicest, smoothest tires I've ever ridden on.



https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d485cfcb73.jpg

IGHs have a strong spring and can overwhelm most variable shifters. These Sun Tours work a 1930s derailleur and a 1946 SA 4 speed. They have a very good clutch so that they move freely but hold the position you select and don't slip.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...83add82a63.jpg

In situ. The shift lever travel for the IGH is very short. Maybe 20 degrees of rotation selects gears 1 to 4.

BigChief 06-08-19 03:21 AM


Originally Posted by jackbombay (Post 20968292)
Hello!

I've long been a fan of Sturmey Archers, and have several, my favorite is a "resto-mod" Hercules I built up about 15 years ago, its a superb townie, but I do now and again take it on longer rides.

Some details on the bike, I think its a 63', I had some cable stops brazed onto to the frame to lose the clamp on ones, got it powder coated semi gloss black, retapped the BB to accept "modern" square taper BBs, dug up a Ti BB out of my parts box, aluminum stem and bars, Mafac center pull brakes, and built a 700c wheelset for it built around a NOS 28 hole AW I got off ebay. I did open up the hub and clean it throughly and re-oil. The chrome fenders are in pretty good shape too.

Last weekend I actually rode a century on it, I've been biking a lot this spring and summer so I hit the century pretty hard and managed an average speed of 16 MPH, a little over 6 hours of pedaling. The ride was around lake tahoe with an out and back leg to Truckee. Was a great day weather wise too!

Last november I rode a century on my road bike with 11,000' of climbing, and I'm more fit now than I was then... There is a bruiser of a ride in early July that I may want to ride on my 3 speed, the stats are 129 miles and 15,000+' of climbing... The tahoe century was sort of flat, 5,000' of climbing, I ran 52/24 gearing and it was perfect really, I could sit and pedal the climbs comfortably in 1st gear, or click it to second and stand up and smash pretty comfortably, but there is a lot more climbing on the perspective upcoming ride, and I'll have to pedal easier than I did on the tahoe century to ride for an additional 5 hours or so, so I'll need lower gears, much lower gears I think...

SA says you shouldn't go below a 2:1 ratio, meaning I should only drop to a 48 up front, but I read of one guy that ran 40/21 which is a bit lower than SA recommends, but I have no idea how hard he rode it...

I'd love to go 42/24, but I'd hate to blow up this hub, not finishing the ride due to a mechanical would be a bummer, but to break my baby would really suck. The lower top speed of 42/24 would be about 18 MPH, where the 52/24 is about 22 MPH, I'm fine with being spun out at 18 MPH.

So, anyone have experience with gearing SA's way down and how they fare under such circumstances? As the load on the hub gears is largely relative to my weight, I weigh 158 pounds...


Couple pics for you guys, EDIT/// I can't post pics yet.

I've never put anywhere near that level of stress on an AW but I can tell you this. I think the most likely point of failure would be the splined joint of the cog to the driver. I would stick to 1/8" cogs not the 3/32". Every bit of purchase helps. Also, sometimes the drivers aren't machined perfectly and there can be either too much slop or too tight of a fit so the circlip doesn't fully engage in it's channel. It's rare, but I have run into both of those conditions over the years.

Road Fan 06-08-19 07:07 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20966639)
Just something I've thought about and have no idea how successful it would be but...There are always two 1/16" shims on a standard SA driver. Two 1/8" cogs should still leave room for the circlip. Between dished and flat cogs, it might be possible to set up a dual cog derailleur system with the standard driver and cogs. If you used a FW or S5 hub, you would have a ton of range.

Very smart! What derailleur and how would you attach it? A claw could be bolted to the dropout on the outer face of the dropout, but then the long axle nut with the hole would be displaced outward. Does that require a longer indicator chain? or what, to make sure the shifting adjustment is still as it was?

Ged117 06-08-19 07:53 AM

1950 Superbe reassembly
 
Hey all,

I've got an issue with axle room on the drive side for the three speed cog. When I place the original washers in their position as found when I disassembled, there isn't enough room for the axle to slide into the drop out with enough leftover for the indicator chain bolt (the name escapes me right now). If I remove spacing washers, the tube is too close to the cog set which results in chain rub. Any thoughts? I'm new to setting these up so it's a bit confusing. Did I somehow move the axle too far toward the non drive side? Photo:
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2474c81d54.jpg

paulb_in_bkln 06-08-19 08:06 AM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20968536)
Hey all,

I've got an issue with axle room on the drive side for the three speed cog. When I place the original washers in their position as found when I disassembled, there isn't enough room for the axle to slide into the drop out with enough leftover for the indicator chain bolt (the name escapes me right now). If I remove spacing washers, the tube is too close to the cog set which results in chain rub. Any thoughts? I'm new to setting these up so it's a bit confusing. Did I somehow move the axle too far toward the non drive side? Photo:

I need a refresher. This is a block with three cogs you've fit onto a standard AW hub? Or three separate cogs on the original driver? I understand two cogs will fit, how three, as they are thicker than the spacers?

Ged117 06-08-19 08:26 AM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20968555)
I need a refresher. This is a block with three cogs you've fit onto a standard AW hub? Or three separate cogs on the original driver? I understand two cogs will fit, how three, as they are thicker than the spacers?

This is an AG hub with a Cyclo derailer three speed added onto it I assume at purchase or just afterward. Right now I'm fitting just the AG and the cogset to make sure the AG shifts properly before installing the Cyclo parts.


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