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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

usarnie1 06-22-19 06:06 PM

Meet the twins
 
I thought I would show you my twin 1953 Hercules bikes together. One is a Hercules Tourist and the other is a Hercules Royal Prince. Both have been rejuvenated by me. Both have new transfer stickers on their chainguard. It is dificult to say which one is my favorite. Usually, my favorite is the bike I am currently working on! Both of these bikes are the Queen Elizabeth II Coronation Celebration Bikes. The ivory spikes, 2 Falcons in flight and Gold scripted Hercules were only used on the 1953 QEII bikes. In the USA these bikes are quite rare. In Canada they were made under the Eaton lable.

I am waiting for a Hercules Windsor QEII bike, that I purchased in Road Island, to arrive. For this bike I will need to find a set of Hercules brakes and a Hercules B type 3 hub. If anyone reading this post has either or both, please contact me with photos and a price.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7ddf34ac19.jpg

3speedslow 06-22-19 06:14 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20991010)
OT
A friend of mine is looking for another bike.
She already has a nice 3 speed Hercules that I
gave her as a gift last year.
This German Hercules Estrella is for sale up the street.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...363cc45597.jpg
It's a good lookin' bike but I don't know
much about them.

I love the little metal tool boxes that come with the German Hercules. You can see it above the rear brake. I have one but have never found the bike to use it on. One day...

gster 06-22-19 06:16 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20991225)
Sure is. These bikes have always been sort of a Grail to me. In all my years of bike hunting, I have yet to find a neglected club machine that needed rescue. I still have time left in me. Maybe it will come along. This story does put a hole in my older cotters theory. Still, I think the answer to removing a cotter once it bends is to center punch, drill down until you have a centered counter sink, support the crank and drive with a punch. I think supporting the crank is crucial.

Q.
How do you define a club bike?
Is it the drop bars?
The geometry on this English/Canadian mystery
bike is interesting.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...37d94fe4b3.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f183d8cd23.jpg
The seat tube is quite relaxed as compared to a roadster and the top tube is not parallel to the ground.
It drops by about 3/4" from front to back.
BB is Bayley Wiless and the front forks are stamped Tru-Wel Made in England.
I suspect that this was a special, somewhat custom bike, for someone back in 1954.

3speedslow 06-22-19 06:36 PM


Originally Posted by Alloyboy (Post 20991753)
I like the chrome on the fork crown. Fenders and bell and carrier. Twenty bucks! You are my kind of shopper.

The sturdy chrome bell is worth the 20 alone IMO. It will clean up too quite well. The top image is of a muscular young man twin paddling a kayak of sorts. It has a nice ring which will get more pronounced when I get some lube inside. The carrier will be discarded as I do not like these models too much.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0d0c3e838.jpeg

Road Fan 06-22-19 06:45 PM

gster, Go to a local cheaper tool store (Canadian Tyre?) and buy a cheap roofing angle finder - should be about $10. My Rudge angles are 71 deg seat tube and 73 deg head tube, and the Raleigh/Rudge original sales documents say the same thing. It's really not hard to measure them well enough. Relaxed seat tubes were a feature of the times, on roadsters and sport bikes as well as Clubman types. I think I read spec printed 15 years earlier, and there were 67 degree seat tubes. Yours looks steeper than I think mine is.

I use "Club" or "Clubman" the way Raleigh used it and in turn Peter Kohler used it in his blogs on British bikes of the middle-ish 20th Century. There were actual models, really numerous models and variants called "Clubman." Raleigh's patter said they are designed for the discerning customer like club members and other aspirational cyclists who wanted a bicycle with the potential for higher performance than the norm. Sounds to me like the difference between a Peugeot PX-10 and a Peugeot UO-8, no? The 1970's and later trend in USA was for light weight, a lively feel, comfort and stability, long distance comfort, and excellent durability. It sounds like what these Raleighs and other brands offered in the late '40s and '50s (and yes, they had drop bars). And I think the earlier higher end road bikes from Raleigh in the early '60s, like the wonderful gold-colored Grand Prix of the early '60s, were a design evolution from the earlier Club-styles, like the Raleigh Super Lenton (sibling to my Rudge). The Raleigh Competition and International from the 1969-ish time frames were also very similar the geometry of my Rudge. Both models were later transitioned to more upright geometries.

Recall Peter Weigle converted a few Raleigh Comp's of that era into his first 650b bikes. The trail figures for my Rudge calculate out to about 39 mm for the 27 x 1 ¼ for my Rudge, and will probably be in the mid-30s with 650 x 42b tires. But once you have measured your angles and made a best-possible measurement of fork offset and wheel diameter, you can calculate your own trail.

What are the names on your mystery bike?

Link:
The Raleigh Lentons: 1948-1961 - ON THE DROPS



https://on-the-drops.blogspot.com/2016/12/the-raleigh-lentons-1948-1960.htmlNumerous articles on that blog.

paulb_in_bkln 06-22-19 07:22 PM

Has anyone experience with the cottered cranksets from the top end Raleighs, the ones used on the RRA for example? Are they lighter than the usual Sports cranksets? Is the finish different, or better?

BigChief 06-22-19 08:17 PM

What I think of as club bikes were the higher performance English bikes of the mid 20th century. They lacked some of the endearing features of the roadsters like chain cases, chain guards and those wonderful stylized chainrings. They had higher cost materials and more business like styling. Nice features like Bluemel mudguards, fluted crank arms, unsprung seats, wing nuts on the axles, rat trap pedals and drop bars.

gster 06-23-19 05:31 AM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 20991824)
gster, Go to a local cheaper tool store (Canadian Tyre?) and buy a cheap roofing angle finder - should be about $10. My Rudge angles are 71 deg seat tube and 73 deg head tube, and the Raleigh/Rudge original sales documents say the same thing. It's really not hard to measure them well enough. Relaxed seat tubes were a feature of the times, on roadsters and sport bikes as well as Clubman types. I think I read spec printed 15 years earlier, and there were 67 degree seat tubes. Yours looks steeper than I think mine is.

I use "Club" or "Clubman" the way Raleigh used it and in turn Peter Kohler used it in his blogs on British bikes of the middle-ish 20th Century. There were actual models, really numerous models and variants called "Clubman." Raleigh's patter said they are designed for the discerning customer like club members and other aspirational cyclists who wanted a bicycle with the potential for higher performance than the norm. Sounds to me like the difference between a Peugeot PX-10 and a Peugeot UO-8, no? The 1970's and later trend in USA was for light weight, a lively feel, comfort and stability, long distance comfort, and excellent durability. It sounds like what these Raleighs and other brands offered in the late '40s and '50s (and yes, they had drop bars). And I think the earlier higher end road bikes from Raleigh in the early '60s, like the wonderful gold-colored Grand Prix of the early '60s, were a design evolution from the earlier Club-styles, like the Raleigh Super Lenton (sibling to my Rudge). The Raleigh Competition and International from the 1969-ish time frames were also very similar the geometry of my Rudge. Both models were later transitioned to more upright geometries.

Recall Peter Weigle converted a few Raleigh Comp's of that era into his first 650b bikes. The trail figures for my Rudge calculate out to about 39 mm for the 27 x 1 ¼ for my Rudge, and will probably be in the mid-30s with 650 x 42b tires. But once you have measured your angles and made a best-possible measurement of fork offset and wheel diameter, you can calculate your own trail.

What are the names on your mystery bike?

Link:
The Raleigh Lentons: 1948-1961 - ON THE DROPS


https://on-the-drops.blogspot.com/2016/12/the-raleigh-lentons-1948-1960.htmlNumerous articles on that blog.

Good advice on the roofers tool.
My friend, Dan, down the street probably has one.
Despite my appreciation for the Mystery Bike
I can'y really ride it, and I don't want
to swap out the bars for uprights.
it has a metal tab on the rear fork for
a derailleur option that appears unused.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fff9814d5e.jpg
perhaps designed for one of these...
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7def47a55c.jpg

I'm going to use it as a prop in a movie I'm working on
and hang it on the wall of the main character's apartment.

gster 06-23-19 06:14 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20991970)
What I think of as club bikes were the higher performance English bikes of the mid 20th century. They lacked some of the endearing features of the roadsters like chain cases, chain guards and those wonderful stylized chainrings. They had higher cost materials and more business like styling. Nice features like Bluemel mudguards, fluted crank arms, unsprung seats, wing nuts on the axles, rat trap pedals and drop bars.

Another good description.
Thanks

gster 06-23-19 07:11 AM

Still Out There
Triumph 3 speed at $50.00
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6bda3c538b.jpg

Johno59 06-23-19 07:19 AM

Ree
 

Originally Posted by gster (Post 20992259)
Good advice on the roofers tool.
My friend, Dan, down the street probably has one.
Despite my appreciation for the Mystery Bike
I can'y really ride it, and I don't want
to swap out the bars for uprights.
it has a metal tab on the rear fork for
a derailleur option that appears unused.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fff9814d5e.jpg
perhaps designed for one of these...
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7def47a55c.jpg

I'm going to use it as a prop in a movie I'm working on
and hang it on the wall of the main character's apartment.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...79cb694e8f.jpg
Or one of these

gster 06-23-19 07:26 AM


Originally Posted by Johno59 (Post 20992347)

That looks cool.
What is it?

gster 06-23-19 09:03 AM

I Should Have Stayed in Bed
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c0a5bd03d1.jpg
I thought I'd finish off the front brake installation on the '30 Hercules.
Despite being annoying and difficult to install I got it done.
I was just about to take it for a quick spin and decided to tighten up
the rod locking bolts.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...27766d504d.jpg
One 1/2 turn managed to shear it off.
F*CK!!!!
I've got a spare that I hope fits....
As Homer Simpson said:
"Never try."https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8b3e66066e.jpg

Road Fan 06-23-19 09:48 AM

Can you share a picture of the headbadge on that red bike? Based on the angle and the derailleur tab, I'd guess 1950 or earlier. Any idea what the BB shell threading is? How about the seat tube and stem diameters? Here we need a decent quality caliper, $30 at Harbor Freight.

3speedslow 06-23-19 11:54 AM

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...015f6435f.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ab11f1874.jpeg
Working on the Phillips 67. I’ve never had these models before even if they are Raleigh made. I am pulling the seat and taking out the seat pin, I release the bolt clamp give it some lube and pull. It does move a little then becomes easier. I continue pulling and it comes out, and out, and out. I have never seen a 15” seat pin on these bikes. Heck, I’ve never seen a 15” 25.4 English pin period!

markk900 06-23-19 12:05 PM

Funny you should mention that. Last winter while I was working on the 49 Humber I happened to look down the seat tube and noticed something there. After a lot of work and swearing I pulled a 10.5” post that had been hammered down into the seat tube and topped with a regular seat post. Mine did not say “made in England” but it had clearly been there a while!

gster 06-23-19 12:17 PM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 20992572)
Can you share a picture of the headbadge on that red bike? Based on the angle and the derailleur tab, I'd guess 1950 or earlier. Any idea what the BB shell threading is? How about the seat tube and stem diameters? Here we need a decent quality caliper, $30 at Harbor Freight.

Head badge is Gold Medal (an American company) but looks as if it
was added later.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...98e8ab0234.jpg
Made (assembled) in Canada sticker
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0c0c124a40.jpg
1954 Hub.
I haven't had the BB apart but it's English (Bayley Wiless)
Phillips pedals
Brake levers look Canadian and the original tires
were Dunlop Speedsters at 28" x 1 1/4" (Canadian sizing)
The seat stays and lugs are also interesting/unique.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...353cf522ba.jpg

Johno59 06-23-19 12:29 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20992353)
That looks cool.
What is it?

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3f39674e30.jpg

It's a 1954 Resilion derailleur. The lever is to the left in the foto. It bolts onto the bracket braized in the original foto.

gster 06-23-19 12:52 PM

1930 Hercules
Before
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...60b80448b2.jpg
After
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c7f985d56c.jpg
The little pinch bolt fit the brake rod..
It still has a 16T S/A freewheel on the back which makes it a bit
of a dog but will find something bigger in time.
I still plan to make some transfers as well.

gster 06-23-19 01:33 PM


Originally Posted by Johno59 (Post 20992750)
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3f39674e30.jpg

It's a 1954 Resilion derailleur. The lever is to the left in the foto. It bolts onto the bracket braized in the original foto.

Interesting......
The hub is dated 1954 and the last 2 digits of the
serial number are...54
and the pedals are stamped Phillips......

Murray Missile 06-23-19 05:11 PM

Well, my goal this year was to sell bikes and not buy anymore, to that end 2 complete bikes left and one frame, 3 others are almost ready to go on the market. Sold one, junked one and gave a very rough '63 Schwinn Traveler frame to a young lady that collects old Schwinns. One frame tooks it's place, an '85 Raleigh Grand Prix and now it appears I have another Raleigh. I sold the one bike to a co-worker and he asked me if I wanted his old bike, I thought it was a Huffy or WalMart bike so I declined. He posted a garage sale on FB this morning and this was one of the pics. His old bike...........



https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6aeba7d9f3.jpg

Raleigh Sports, guessing late 70's? '77-ish? He's bringing it to work tomorrow or the next day, he told me $30 but would take less. Since he's hauling it to work for me I told him I'd go the full 30. He's been riding it up until he got the bike from me so I know it's at least functional and except for possibly the saddle it looks all original. I have a gently used brown "Pashley" branded Brooks B-72 I think would be right at home on it, definitely better than that thing that is on it now.

clubman 06-23-19 06:28 PM


Originally Posted by Murray Missile (Post 20993090)
Raleigh Sports, guessing late 70's? '77-ish?

Maybe later, maybe assembled in Canada. The rear reflector and odd bar bend were typically early 80's.

But the AW will tell the story. It's a bigger frame, bonus!

Murray Missile 06-23-19 07:22 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20993185)
It's a bigger frame, bonus!

I see these for sale fairly often but never with the tall frame and usually for at least double the money, when I saw this I had to have it. I'm 6' 1-1/2" but I can make a 23" work pretty easily. I would have preferred an older Nottingham built bike but when opportunity knocks...... The rear reflector is what made me think 77-ish, in the catalogs the 80's bikes had black reflector housings, this style reflector with white housing started in '77 but the '78 bikes showed a black band on the frame and the head tube between the lugs was painted black. Then again none of those I found showed red as an available color. Whatever it is, it's mine now!

Update:

Looks like it's an LTD not a Sports, the LTD was available in red or "Carmine" as they called it. Matches the 1977 version the best.

browngw 06-23-19 09:23 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20991970)
What I think of as club bikes were the higher performance English bikes of the mid 20th century. They lacked some of the endearing features of the roadsters like chain cases, chain guards and those wonderful stylized chainrings. They had higher cost materials and more business like styling. Nice features like Bluemel mudguards, fluted crank arms, unsprung seats, wing nuts on the axles, rat trap pedals and drop bars.

When I think of a club bike , my 1958 Sun Cresta always pops into my mind. The 5 speed Benelux derailleur even kind of shifts with a chain indicator. Slim simple and lightweight (for the time)https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ee416618fd.jpg

BigChief 06-24-19 03:43 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20992779)
1930 Hercules
Before
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...60b80448b2.jpg
After
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c7f985d56c.jpg
The little pinch bolt fit the brake rod..
It still has a 16T S/A freewheel on the back which makes it a bit
of a dog but will find something bigger in time.
I still plan to make some transfers as well.

That's looking great. From what I see in the 1930 catalog, the only transfer is the round head badge. Pretty sure this one from Lloyd's is a perfect replica. https://h-lloyd-cycles.myshopify.com/search?q=hercules
Are you planning on painting the black center stripe on the rims?


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