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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

SirMike1983 10-02-17 06:34 PM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 19902658)
And for further info on when that transition might have taken place, here's the front dropout on my '62 lady's Sports:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4500/...d567fb93_c.jpg

And the front dropout on my '66 men's Sports:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4477/...3d7a5f10_c.jpg

So that transition happened at some point 1963-66, though I wouldn't bet on consistency when it comes to Raleigh.

Excellent, more material. The answer then is probably 1963 or 64 - I just checked old pictures of a 1964 Raleigh I had a few years ago and it had "slice and braze" forks.

I see someone else here has a '64 with slice and braze too, so I guess we have a baseline answer.

SirMike1983 10-02-17 06:38 PM


Originally Posted by plympton (Post 19902338)
A while back I mentioned that Raleigh changed its drop-out mounting style over the years on the Sports/Sprite frame. I finally got a couple good pictures while cleaning and comparing two bikes: a 1970-ish Sprite and a 1958 Sports.


I am wrong again. The drop out on my 52 is the slice and braze. The 49 is pressed?Attachment 583012

I wonder though if your fork might not be a 1960s-era replacement to fill-in for an original that was damaged. What are your rear drops like on the frame?

Pinched forks on a 1940s bike seems right. I had a 1940s-era Dawn that had pinched front fork drops.

clubman 10-02-17 06:52 PM


Originally Posted by plympton (Post 19902788)
I don't know what a key hole is [new to bikes] as you can see, even though I take a lousy picture, the 49 is different from the other examples posted.

Raleigh made at least 3 types of fork ends, the most common had no keyhole, one with a keyhole on the outside and one with the keyhole on the inside which is rarer IMO.

The outside keyhole visible on this red fork is meant to accept the Raleigh wingnut or similar axle nut with the corresponding lip. The (older?) axle pictures shows a lip that goes with the inside keyhole. I can't find an example of that fork just now but they exist. Raleigh took away the relieved area on the fork end at some point in the 60's that allowed any axle to be mounted but I think the early designs were elegant.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_H...=w1121-h633-nohttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Gc...=w1587-h897-nohttps://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...Fg48I7TxGB0lUahttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/XJ...=w1482-h837-nohttps://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...Fg48I7TxGB0lUa

Scipunk 10-02-17 07:11 PM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 19902935)
Excellent, more material. The answer then is probably 1963 or 64 - I just checked old pictures of a 1964 Raleigh I had a few years ago and it had "slice and braze" forks.

I see someone else here has a '64 with slice and braze too, so I guess we have a baseline answer.


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 19902972)
Raleigh made at least 3 types of fork ends, the most common had no keyhole, one with a keyhole on the outside and one with the keyhole on the inside which is rarer IMO.

The outside keyhole visible on this red fork is meant to accept the Raleigh wingnut or similar axle nut with the corresponding lip. The (older?) axle pictures shows a lip that goes with the inside keyhole. I can't find an example of that fork just now but they exist. Raleigh took away the relieved area on the fork end at some point in the 60's that allowed any axle to be mounted but I think the early designs were elegant.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_H...=w1121-h633-nohttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Gc...=w1587-h897-nohttps://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...Fg48I7TxGB0lUahttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/XJ...=w1482-h837-nohttps://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...Fg48I7TxGB0lUa


Excellent info guys, i am learning so much on here! BTW those wingnuts are amazing i would love a bike with those!

@SirMike1983 that would be me that had the slice and braze on the '64 (i can get a exact month of manufacture if it will help)

I have a question about the rear hubs, did all of them come with the inspection type nut? My 73 has one as does my 69 triumph, but the 64 seems to have just regular nuts on the back.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4378/...fd262f0c_b.jpg1964 Raleigh Sports 3 speed by David Ashe, on Flickr

Are these available and are they needed because that adjustment chain looks practically new on it

3speedslow 10-02-17 07:21 PM

1 Attachment(s)
A nice surprise awaited me when I got home. A friend of ours is a Flight Attendant with American Airlines and has the London route. She bought over some treats she picked up on her last turnaround. Wife and kid get the chocolates but I claimed the biscuits. Perfect for my outdoor coffee expeditions this fall season

3speedslow 10-02-17 07:25 PM

@Scipunk you are missing the long nut with the see through hole on yours.

Scipunk 10-02-17 07:49 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19903057)
@Scipunk you are missing the long nut with the see through hole on yours.

I am indeed, and a kind soul is helping me remedy this :)

BTW @SirMike1983 My 64 was made in January or at least it's hub was (the bike is a bit of a mystery /Canadian heritage...lol)

As it was i was going to fix up and ride the 73 as it was complete and worked well, until the hub went kaput and i realized someone left it in a bog or something because my lord is it gunked up bad.

So my first project will be in fact the 64. Tires, brake pads and cables, grips, new shifter, chain, tuneup and a new seat are in order.

I am ordering a bike repair stand this week. Also got brass brushes for my dremel and a lot of patience

thumpism 10-02-17 08:02 PM

1 Attachment(s)
New reveal of an old addition to my Sports. I bought the bike from one of my dealers back when I was still repping. Quit in 2001 to go back to school for an IT certificate and rode this bike to school for that year. First contract when I got out was for a well-known financial services company in the process of rolling out new desktops to its staff, one-third annually of about 15,000 total over a three year period, including the ones that had had to be proofed against the Y2K bug. Remember that? What better sticker for a Raleigh Sports than one to guarantee that it's good for the new century?
Attachment 583076

3speedslow 10-02-17 08:12 PM

Ah yes! Our own version of " War of the Worlds " in slow motion. That's a great stick for a bike that could possibly still be around when the next century comes around.

BigChief 10-02-17 08:57 PM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 19902935)
Excellent, more material. The answer then is probably 1963 or 64 - I just checked old pictures of a 1964 Raleigh I had a few years ago and it had "slice and braze" forks.

I see someone else here has a '64 with slice and braze too, so I guess we have a baseline answer.

I can confirm one more. Hub date march 1964. The later style fork. This is good. Another feature we can put into the Raleigh timeline.

gster 10-03-17 04:08 AM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by Scipunk (Post 19903031)
Excellent info guys, i am learning so much on here! BTW those wingnuts are amazing i would love a bike with those!

@SirMike1983 that would be me that had the slice and braze on the '64 (i can get a exact month of manufacture if it will help)

I have a question about the rear hubs, did all of them come with the inspection type nut? My 73 has one as does my 69 triumph, but the 64 seems to have just regular nuts on the back.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4378/...fd262f0c_b.jpg1964 Raleigh Sports 3 speed by David Ashe, on Flickr

Are these available and are they needed because that adjustment chain looks practically new on it

I see this as "evidence" that the hub has been "serviced" (messed with) by someone who may not have known what they were doing. I would make sure it wasn't too tight. There should be some play, i.e. a little wiggle.
Tightening down those cones can cause a lot of trouble
A stripped sun pinion for example...
Attachment 583151

plympton 10-03-17 06:50 AM

2 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 19902943)
I wonder though if your fork might not be a 1960s-era replacement to fill-in for an original that was damaged. What are your rear drops like on the frame?

Pinched forks on a 1940s bike seems right. I had a 1940s-era Dawn that had pinched front fork drops.

Yes. This bike underwent an amateur remake in the 60's. As you can see I am stripping the paint now and the front fork revealed superbe green. So I would agree that the fork was replaced. The two bikethat I'm picking up are 52's so the correct fork will be used. The rear dropout on the 52 is identical to the 49 dropout. What's a keyhole?Attachment 583156

Attachment 583157

Jawihan 10-03-17 07:57 AM

Online form for logging rides?
 

Originally Posted by adventurepdx (Post 19898823)
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4394/2...83b8a66b_o.jpg

Just letting everyone know that my (or technically, Society of Three Speeds) Three Speed October Challenge starts TOMORROW, Sunday October 1st!

The premise is simple...
  • Ride your three speed
  • Three times a week
  • For three weeks
  • Each ride at least three miles
  • During the five week period from Oct 1 through Nov 5

Of course, there are more details, which you can find out about here. https://societyofthreespeeds.wordpress.com/3-spd-oct/

Hope to see a few of you who post here taking the challenge! Talking about three speeds is fun, riding them is even more fun! :D

I registered by online form yesterday, but I can't find the mentioned online form for logging rides. I didn't receive any confirmation via email or notice any contact email for them.
Thanks
James

JohnDThompson 10-03-17 08:27 AM


Originally Posted by Scipunk (Post 19903031)
I have a question about the rear hubs, did all of them come with the inspection type nut? My 73 has one as does my 69 triumph, but the 64 seems to have just regular nuts on the back.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4378/...fd262f0c_b.jpg1964 Raleigh Sports 3 speed by David Ashe, on Flickr

Are these available and are they needed because that adjustment chain looks practically new on it

Yes, it should have the windowed nut. It will likely shift better, as the indicator rod will be pulled straight, rather than at an angle. And yes, they are available. Any well-established bike shop is likely to have some. Failing that, I have a few. PM and we can work something out.

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/sa-axle-nuts.jpg

BigChief 10-03-17 08:35 AM


Originally Posted by Scipunk (Post 19903031)
Excellent info guys, i am learning so much on here! BTW those wingnuts are amazing i would love a bike with those!

@SirMike1983 that would be me that had the slice and braze on the '64 (i can get a exact month of manufacture if it will help)

I have a question about the rear hubs, did all of them come with the inspection type nut? My 73 has one as does my 69 triumph, but the 64 seems to have just regular nuts on the back.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4378/...fd262f0c_b.jpg1964 Raleigh Sports 3 speed by David Ashe, on Flickr

Are these available and are they needed because that adjustment chain looks practically new on it

These are available. Sometimes they ar 2 pieces, but mostly, you'll find the one piece long nut.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-NOS-...MAAOSwUKxYhUUt
Also, it looks like you have a plain washer behind the nut. You should have anti-rotation washers on both sides of the rear axle.
You want ones like these:
STURMEY ARCHER VINTAGE BIKE HMW 155 LOCK WASHERS QTY 2 HUB WASHER 3 THREE SPEED | eBay

Scipunk 10-03-17 08:52 AM


Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 19903890)
Yes, it should have the windowed nut. It will likely shift better, as the indicator rod will be pulled straight, rather than at an angle. And yes, they are available. Any well-established bike shop is likely to have some. Failing that, I have a few. PM and we can work something out.

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/sa-axle-nuts.jpg

John, thank you for the offer, i do have a set coming from another member but as i seem to collect these bikes now I am sure we will make a deal at some point :)

As to the angle, on my '64 the jockey wheel is under the seat tube near the top bar, unlike my '73 where it was down by the BB, is this normal? (please ignore the chain, it was the first thing i removed)
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4380/...3659993d_b.jpg1964 Raleigh Sports 3 speed by David Ashe, on Flickr


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19903916)
These are available. Sometimes they ar 2 pieces, but mostly, you'll find the one piece long nut.
VINTAGE NOS CYCLE RITE STURMEY ARCHER 3 SPEED BICYCLE AXLE NUT HMN-129 | eBay
Also, it looks like you have a plain washer behind the nut. You should have anti-rotation washers on both sides of the rear axle.
You want ones like these:
STURMEY ARCHER VINTAGE BIKE HMW 155 LOCK WASHERS QTY 2 HUB WASHER 3 THREE SPEED | eBay

Thanks BC! I didn't realize it was missing those washers, i am waiting on a bike stand before i begin tear down but I will be ordering those this week as well. :)

BigChief 10-03-17 09:38 AM


Originally Posted by Scipunk (Post 19903967)
John, thank you for the offer, i do have a set coming from another member but as i seem to collect these bikes now I am sure we will make a deal at some point :)

As to the angle, on my '64 the jockey wheel is under the seat tube near the top bar, unlike my '73 where it was down by the BB, is this normal? (please ignore the chain, it was the first thing i removed)
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4380/...3659993d_b.jpg1964 Raleigh Sports 3 speed by David Ashe, on Flickr



Thanks BC! I didn't realize it was missing those washers, i am waiting on a bike stand before i begin tear down but I will be ordering those this week as well. :)

I don't know why, but it is very common to find 3 speeds where somebody lost the original anti rotation washers and replaced them with plain washers. I can tell that's what happened here because I can see the axle flat is tipped in the dropout. I think maybe gremlins steal them, so watch out.

Scipunk 10-03-17 10:16 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19904082)
I don't know why, but it is very common to find 3 speeds where somebody lost the original anti rotation washers and replaced them with plain washers. I can tell that's what happened here because I can see the axle flat is tipped in the dropout. I think maybe gremlins steal them, so watch out.

It would seem so, and I now see the tipped axle flat, so it will be remedied :)

I decided to clean it a bit and oil the frame to see where the paint stands and while rough man it was/is a gorgeous color:
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4465/...698ee518_b.jpgUntitled by David Ashe, on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4480/...872c8eb3_b.jpgUntitled by David Ashe, on Flickr

The black cable is temporary while i got the shifter dialed back in but the trigger is indeed dead.

adventurepdx 10-03-17 11:10 AM


Originally Posted by Jawihan (Post 19903831)
I registered by online form yesterday, but I can't find the mentioned online form for logging rides. I didn't receive any confirmation via email or notice any contact email for them.
Thanks
James

Thanks for signing up! :D
I'm still working on the logging form, but I will be getting it out to registered folks later in the week.

Scipunk 10-03-17 11:51 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 19903519)
I see this as "evidence" that the hub has been "serviced" (messed with) by someone who may not have known what they were doing. I would make sure it wasn't too tight. There should be some play, i.e. a little wiggle.
Tightening down those cones can cause a lot of trouble
A stripped sun pinion for example...
Attachment 583151

OUCH!

I haven't taken one of these apart yet, what does the sun pinion do?

JohnDThompson 10-03-17 12:26 PM


Originally Posted by Scipunk (Post 19903967)
As to the angle, on my '64 the jockey wheel is under the seat tube near the top bar, unlike my '73 where it was down by the BB, is this normal? (please ignore the chain, it was the first thing i removed)
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4380/...3659993d_b.jpg1964 Raleigh Sports 3 speed by David Ashe, on Flickr

The cable can be routed either way. I prefer to route it along the seat stay, as on your '64, because you're less likely to snag the cable on your foot while pedaling. It doesn't happen often, but is quite annoying when it does -- usually at the least opportune time.

noglider 10-03-17 01:39 PM


Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 19904574)
The cable can be routed either way. I prefer to route it along the seat stay, as on your '64, because you're less likely to snag the cable on your foot while pedaling. It doesn't happen often, but is quite annoying when it does -- usually at the least opportune time.

Also, mounting the the pulley on the top tube and down the seat stay, the adjustment is much less sensitive to wheel placement changes in the dropout, since it is a cosine error or something like that rather than a direct change.

dweenk 10-03-17 01:45 PM

That routing is the "old way" for men's frames as I recall. Step-through frames required a different method, and at one point all shift cables were routed along the down tube and chain stay.

Scipunk 10-03-17 02:58 PM

thanks for the info on the routing, interesting to see the changes over the years!

So I noticed today that the front wheel nuts were not the cone style on the 64 but rather just regular nuts unlike my 73 (which has its original R nuts)

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4438/...df2666c0_b.jpg1964 Raleigh Sports 3 speed by David Ashe, on Flickr

Is this another case of someone messed with the bike? Also i seem to have the headlight mounting bracket, yet 0 indication of a light ever being present...
(older pic)
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4402/...d64b90bc_b.jpg1964 Raleigh Sports 3 speed by David Ashe, on Flickr

Oh and my serial number isn't in any known location but instead it is on the down tube and seems to fall into the 71 category according to the http://www.kurtkaminer.com/TH_raleigh_serials.html
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4399/...e09effd7_b.jpg1964 Raleigh Sports 3 speed by David Ashe, on Flickr

Thoughts?

BigChief 10-03-17 03:13 PM


Originally Posted by Scipunk (Post 19904162)
It would seem so, and I now see the tipped axle flat, so it will be remedied :)

I decided to clean it a bit and oil the frame to see where the paint stands and while rough man it was/is a gorgeous color:
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4465/...698ee518_b.jpgUntitled by David Ashe, on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4480/...872c8eb3_b.jpgUntitled by David Ashe, on Flickr

The black cable is temporary while i got the shifter dialed back in but the trigger is indeed dead.

The trigger only works properly when there's cable tension on it. I have a feeling it's OK. Nothing is going to work right until you get the proper axle nut. But in any case, triggers don't die around here, we rebuild them!
edit:
oops, forgot this bike has a twist grip shifter. I don't know about those.


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