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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

noglider 05-19-11 04:16 PM

Today, I just picked up a 1963 Royal, indistinguishable from a Raleigh. I bought it from the original owner who remembers when his father bought him this bike. He is 60 years old. In 1971, his uncle bought him a Raleigh Record and he's been riding both since then, though he favors the Record. The Royal is in better condition. It needs little work. And it's a men's model. I don't find many men's models in good working condition. It looks grungy, but the test ride showed it to work well. It has two caliper brakes AND a coaster brake. It has a TCW III hub, dated 1/1963. Works great. This rear hub has potential. I don't know yet what I'll do with it, but I'll figure it out.

Sorry Jimmy. It's another 21-1/2" frame.

auchencrow 05-19-11 05:01 PM

Kurt - (and Sixty)

This is the condition of the frame - no separation that I can see but some bending. I have repaired one frame through cold setting myself - caem out well - but I would not attempt it in this one myself.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...xxBlack032.jpg

Another view of the "MkII" Dynohub

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...xxBlack031.jpg

Here are the mounts for the Bluemels

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...xxBlack026.jpg

cudak888 05-19-11 05:08 PM


Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 12666216)
The solution to A's frame issue is to bring it to a frame builder who will re-braze the head tube and lugs to the top and downtube (and replace those if needed) as they appear to have separated.

You mean example B. The lugs never separated; I don't know where you're seeing it.

EDIT: Oh; you meant Auchencrow's frame. I still don't see any separation.

There's a reason that example (the Windsor) was listed as "extreme." It was a test on a friend's wrecked frame to see how much cold-setting that Windsor's soft steel could put up with. He's still riding it to work since we straightened it, and to our surprise, it hasn't opened up - yet. It'll be a year since, come 7 days from now.

Mind you, that frame remains an experiment - I'm not suggesting that anyone go out there and take anything with this amount of damage to it and re-use it.


Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 12666216)
You know my position on the Park tool... it can make a damaged frame look whole and with some refinishing a badly damaged frame can pass as being safe when the head tube and joints have been compromised.

The joints are hardly compromised - I'd be far more suspect of the tubing just behind the joints.


Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 12666216)
There is a good reason why they don't make these anymore... once a frame is bent at the head lugs it is usually a write off unless it is particularly rare or valuable and needs to be rebuilt properly and not just bent back into shape without considering what kind of internal damage has been done.

And that's why it's the perfect tool for Auchencrow's '38 Golden Arrow - especially as the GA is essentially a gas-pipe frame.

Heck, there's evidence my '51 Sports "C" Tourist was repaired with this tool ages ago - mind you, the fork was bent too. Haven't seen any ill effects from either, even though it's joined me on some curb hopping expeditions.

-Kurt

cudak888 05-19-11 05:10 PM


Originally Posted by auchencrow (Post 12666407)
Kurt - (and Sixty)

This is the condition of the frame - no separation that I can see but some bending. I have repaired one frame through cold setting myself - caem out well - but I would not attempt it in this one myself.

Know anyone with an HTS-1 that can help you up there in Detroit?

-Kurt

P.S.: We really ought to start a new thread on this bike, eh?

Sixty Fiver 05-19-11 06:12 PM

Maybe this is just some crud on the frame behind the lug... or some less than stellar workmanship but could also be an early indicator of some lug separation.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...xxBlack017.jpg

Sixty Fiver 05-19-11 06:24 PM

Having taken apart a good number of frames I can tell you that in many cases the penetration of the brass / silver is often minimal and incomplete... it is amazing how little brazing material can hold a frame together and the best looking frames often don't look that good from the inside.

Have taken apart a few wrecked Kuwaharas and my appreciation for these bikes has increased when I have seen how well done the brazing work is as many were done by hand and the workmanship is stellar like many mid eighties Japanese bicycles.

Auchen's bike is worth restoring and it could be straightened and have the brazing re-done as this is the proper way to repair a frame with this kind of damage and then it would be good for the next 100 years and one would never have to worry about the repair failing.

Sixty Fiver 05-19-11 06:35 PM


Originally Posted by cudak888 (Post 12666424)
Y

The joints are hardly compromised - I'd be far more suspect of the tubing just behind the joints.

And that's why it's the perfect tool for Auchencrow's '38 Golden Arrow - especially as the GA is essentially a gas-pipe frame.

-Kurt

This was the feedback I got from my partner who is a master frame builder... even if the lugs are not compromised the tubing behind them has been and it is our practice to replace any bent tubes. The tube walls are thin and bending them can cause cracks and stress risers but even a cracked steel frame won't fail catastrophically unless things separate completely.

We restored a 1917 CCM last fall and it required a nearly full tear down and front end rebuild and had to have a new top and down tube brazed in... the frame was filet brazed originally and had been bent and badly repaired some time during it's nearly 100 years of life.

Have to get some pictures of this bike now... it is probably straighter now than when it was first built.

auchencrow 05-19-11 08:00 PM


Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 12666678)
Maybe this is just some crud on the frame behind the lug...

Sixty -
Definitely crud. I took a moistened Q-tip to it just now, to be sure.
I am going to start a new thread on this bike though because I'm taking up too much space on this one.

Noglider -
Where are the pics of the 1963 Royal?
Pics or it didn't happen.

Mexican Street Dog 05-20-11 07:17 AM

Did all the Golden Arrows have the riveted seatstays? Where the seatstay meets the seat lug.

rhm 05-20-11 07:37 AM


Originally Posted by waverley610 (Post 12665495)
From 1937-9 three speeds were stamped AW7 AW8 AW9, from 1940 ....

No, not quite! In I have a "0" (1940). I don't know when they started using two digits.

rhm 05-20-11 07:42 AM


Originally Posted by Carl Brill (Post 12668610)
Did all the Golden Arrows have the riveted seatstays? Where the seatstay meets the seat lug.

FTWelder's definitely does. He started a thread on it a few months ago. Auchen?

cudak888 05-20-11 07:42 AM


Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 12666678)
Maybe this is just some crud on the frame behind the lug... or some less than stellar workmanship but could also be an early indicator of some lug separation.

Raleigh's baked-enamel paint jobs are magnets for developing light-colored dirt around the shorelines. Note the same residue around the pump peg.


Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 12666710)
Having taken apart a good number of frames I can tell you that in many cases the penetration of the brass / silver is often minimal and incomplete... it is amazing how little brazing material can hold a frame together and the best looking frames often don't look that good from the inside.

That's very much the the case with the TI-era Sports frames; for that matter, virtually any model below the Professional and Team Professional in Raleigh's lineup may be found with huge voids. You've been hanging around too many crappy low-end frames (or too many Italian high-end frames).

These pre-TI frames (roughly 1961 and earlier) are pretty much the opposite. I've yet to see one with a gap at the shoreline (some might have a bit too much brass at the shoreline), and I've yet to hear of one coming apart. Look at your own collection of early Raleighs and tell me what you find at the shorelines.

What's more, I'm pretty sure these frames were NOT mitered; all the more reason for the brass penetration to be adequate.


Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 12666710)
Auchen's bike is worth restoring and it could be straightened and have the brazing re-done as this is the proper way to repair a frame with this kind of damage and then it would be good for the next 100 years and one would never have to worry about the repair failing.

Auchen's bike is also worth attempting to keep as original as possible - in other words, if a repair without paint damage can be attempted, so be it.

-Kurt

rhm 05-20-11 07:53 AM

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest...

Auchen, have you ridden this beastie yet? If it rides okay (and it probably will) you really don't have to straighten the frame.

I'm sure you'll want to pick up a real Raleigh Lauterwasser bar, but if you can't (and I might as well break it to you: even with your luck, you probably can't), I'd leave the Northroad. Mebbe flip it over, though.

And I think I'd leave the black fenders and chain guard, too. It looks right.

cudak888 05-20-11 04:09 PM


Originally Posted by rhm (Post 12668732)
Auchen, have you ridden this beastie yet? If it rides okay (and it probably will) you really don't have to straighten the frame.

...so that anyone who understands what it is can snicker behind his back about it being bent?

-Kurt

auchencrow 05-20-11 04:27 PM


Originally Posted by rhm (Post 12668689)

Originally Posted by Carl Brill (Post 12668610)
Did all the Golden Arrows have the riveted seatstays? Where the seatstay meets the seat lug.

FTWelder's definitely does. He started a thread on it a few months ago. Auchen?

rhm -
It seems that two out of the 4 Golden Arrows associated with our members have riveted stays - the other like mine does not.

auchencrow 05-20-11 04:48 PM


Originally Posted by rhm (Post 12668732)
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest...

Auchen, have you ridden this beastie yet? If it rides okay (and it probably will) you really don't have to straighten the frame.

I'm sure you'll want to pick up a real Raleigh Lauterwasser bar, but if you can't (and I might as well break it to you: even with your luck, you probably can't), I'd leave the Northroad. Mebbe flip it over, though.

And I think I'd leave the black fenders and chain guard, too. It looks right.

I have ridden it only briefly - It needs to be overhauled and it does not shift right largely because there is no pulley - and with the N'roads so far back and the seat forward, it's too crampt for me.

This is why I am keen on the forward sloping lauterwassers.

It does seem to track OK in spite of the frame damage - but I suspect it's an entirely different feel from what it would be with such a laid back head angle. I'd like to experience the GA thing and put it right.

I am debating on how to proceed with it - The early dyno hub, and fenders - and maybe even period - but not original I think.
(I was kicking around options in another dedicated thread, because I don't want to monopolize everyone's time here.)

Sixty Fiver 05-20-11 10:16 PM


Originally Posted by cudak888 (Post 12668692)
That's very much the the case with the TI-era Sports frames; for that matter, virtually any model below the Professional and Team Professional in Raleigh's lineup may be found with huge voids. You've been hanging around too many crappy low-end frames (or too many Italian high-end frames).
-Kurt

It is a bit of both... :)

Koniucha 05-22-11 08:31 AM

Armstrong bicycle
 
Hi, I am new to this forum. I have a 1964 Armstrong bicycle and I am looking for some parts for it. Where is a good place to buy parts? I need a new shifter and cable and also a brake cable. Also, here is a picture of my bike to share!

http://www.bikeforums.net/<a href="h...600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG]

Ok, well I have no idea how to post a photo.

BigPolishJimmy 05-22-11 12:00 PM


Originally Posted by Koniucha (Post 12676958)
Hi, I am new to this forum. I have a 1964 Armstrong bicycle and I am looking for some parts for it. Where is a good place to buy parts? I need a new shifter and cable and also a brake cable. Also, here is a picture of my bike to share!

http://thumb12.webshots.net/t/71/171...2KhhqLM_th.jpg

Ok, well I have no idea how to post a photo.

Lets see if I can make this work in a quote.

Amesja 05-22-11 01:14 PM


Originally Posted by Koniucha (Post 12676958)
Hi, I am new to this forum. I have a 1964 Armstrong bicycle and I am looking for some parts for it. Where is a good place to buy parts? I need a new shifter and cable and also a brake cable. Also, here is a picture of my bike to share!

http://inlinethumb21.webshots.com/45...600x600Q85.jpg

Ok, well I have no idea how to post a photo.

Start at Sheldon Brown's page at Armstrong and keep reading and clicking on links. You can buy just about anything from Harris Cyclery (that same page as Sheldon's if you keep clicking on links you'll find their 3-speed parts store) on Amazon/Niagara, maybe your local LBS or in a worst-case YellowJersey has a bunch of neat/odd roadster/light-roadster parts.

ftwelder 05-24-11 06:35 PM

I have been watching this thread forever and have wanted to make a contribution. I ride English three-speeds nearly every day and often twice (weather permitting). This one of my first acquisitions but sat for quite a while before getting some attention. I wasn't sure what to do with it but it sure looked like fun to ride. From what I can tell it's a 1946-48 Rudge Whiteworth. I rode this bike for the first time today. It is still missing front brake blocks and parts for one chain tug. I ran my errands on the old girl and got caught in a shower. Here are the pics.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5185/...f2fd525a1d.jpg
27 103 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2578/...b8a4e1e884.jpg
27 101 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2093/...226313486b.jpg
27 102 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2030/...a410d0b56f.jpg
27 100 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

kingfish254 05-24-11 07:14 PM


Originally Posted by ftwelder (Post 12689086)
I have been watching this thread forever and have wanted to make a contribution. I ride English three-speeds nearly every day and often twice (weather permitting). This one of my first acquisitions but sat for quite a while before getting some attention. I wasn't sure what to do with it but it sure looked like fun to ride. From what I can tell it's a 1946-48 Rudge Whiteworth. I rode this bike for the first time today. It is still missing front brake blocks and parts for one chain tug. I ran my errands on the old girl and got caught in a shower. Here are the pics.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5185/...f2fd525a1d.jpg
27 103 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2578/...b8a4e1e884.jpg
27 101 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2093/...226313486b.jpg
27 102 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2030/...a410d0b56f.jpg
27 100 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Very nice Rudge. I still haven't touched my 48 Rudge Whitworth Sports. Someday someday.........
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/a...01948/RWa1.jpg

auchencrow 05-24-11 07:30 PM

That is a gorgeous bike Frank - a real classic. I love the understated Rudge-Whitworth logo on the chain guard. Every time I see the name though, I have to think about the story about outfitting those Crimean War gunboats. - I am not entirely clear though how they got the Whitworth name on the bikes. Maybe someone else can elaborate.

Velognome 05-24-11 07:42 PM

I'm jealous FT, my Whitworth is sitting in a box waiting for me to build up a set of wheels......someday it will be my dedicated townie. Your beauty has motivated me! Now when is the next payday........

ftwelder 05-25-11 03:44 AM


Originally Posted by auchencrow (Post 12689348)
That is a gorgeous bike Frank - a real classic. I love the understated Rudge-Whitworth logo on the chain guard. Every time I see the name though, I have to think about the story about outfitting those Crimean War gunboats. - I am not entirely clear though how they got the Whitworth name on the bikes. Maybe someone else can elaborate.

I read about the hand logo a bit, I would have guessed that Dan Rudge used the name to declare he had adapted that bold standard? Dunno, just guessing.

It hand is called "the red hand of Ulster". A long time ago there was a kingdom with no heir to the the crown. It was decided there would be a boat race. It was declared that "He who's hand first touches English soil will be the king".

It is said one of the O'Neill clan, while nearing the shore wished to guarantee his victory had his first mate chop off his hand. The bloody appendage was then thrown to shore. The bike is known in my shop as the black hand.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3033/...b42dd13579.jpg
27 056 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr


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