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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

noglider 02-19-15 05:36 PM

You may also have to re-dish the wheel after swapping the axle.

markk900 02-19-15 06:46 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious;
I have seen AW hubs with wider axles that would allow spacers. Plan B- cold set the frame to the smaller width.

I did this (Plan B) with my Trek conversion after doing all the research that @desconhecido posted a couple of posts later.....Originally was going to get longer axle (needing a longer indicator chain BTW), but then just built up a "normal" wheel with the standard axle, cold set the frame (didn't take a lot of effort), and never looked back.

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/a...psc9345405.jpg

I did do a "practice run" using my Peugeot frame (cold setting for the IGH), then a year later cold set it back again to return it to a derailleur bike. Again, not a big issue though it was harder to keep the dropouts parallel with the Peugeot!

Edit: one other thing is that I laced the AW hub to a 700c rim rather than a 650A size...that's the Alex DM18 rim you see in the picture and it's quite nice for $20. New DT spokes and no spoke washers - I'll take my chances.

desconhecido 02-19-15 06:59 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 17568800)
I did this (Plan B) with my Trek conversion after doing all the research that @desconhecido posted a couple of posts later.....Originally was going to get longer axle (needing a longer indicator chain BTW), but then just built up a "normal" wheel with the standard axle, cold set the frame (didn't take a lot of effort), and never looked back.

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/a...psc9345405.jpg

I did do a "practice run" using my Peugeot frame (cold setting for the IGH), then a year later cold set it back again to return it to a derailleur bike. Again, not a big issue though it was harder to keep the dropouts parallel with the Peugeot!

Edit: one other thing is that I laced the AW hub to a 700c rim rather than a 650A size...that's the Alex DM18 rim you see in the picture and it's quite nice for $20. New DT spokes and no spoke washers - I'll take my chances.

I like the way that the cable goes through the cable stop braze on. With newer Raleigh Sports bikes, the cable sticks out from the chain stay a bit more than I like and I've hooked it with my heel using platform pedals without clips. Hooked the chain guard, too. Putting the pulley at the bottom of the bottom tube was not, in my opinion, an improvement. Back before all the braze ons, there were cable stop clamps for the chain stay. Maybe a sacrificial bit of shrink tube to protect the cable from fraying.

JohnDThompson 02-19-15 07:05 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 17567668)
Is is there a vintage 3 speed hub with longer axle? Or would I need to stick with modern SA?

SA-AW axles are available in both 5-3/4" (146mm) and 6-1/4" (159mm) overall lengths:

Bike Tools Etc. - 1000's of bicycle tools and parts for the home mechanic!

Bike Tools Etc. - 1000's of bicycle tools and parts for the home mechanic!

N.B. "Pre-N.I.G." refers to the original AW design with a "neutral" zone between gears 2 and 3. Modern Taiwan production uses the N.I.G. design with "no in-between gear."

Also note that if you swap in a longer axle, the indicator rod will no longer line up with the end of the axle in 2nd gear (unless you also use a longer indicator rod), but this isn't a show-stopper as you can still adjust the gears properly with a little finesse.

markk900 02-19-15 07:06 PM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 17568842)
Maybe a sacrificial bit of shrink tube to protect the cable from fraying.

On the list for next year! Only 3 bikes in the basement at a time - this one is in the shed.....

JohnDThompson 02-19-15 07:09 PM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 17568842)
With newer Raleigh Sports bikes, the cable sticks out from the chain stay a bit more than I like and I've hooked it with my heel using platform pedals without clips. Hooked the chain guard, too. Putting the pulley at the bottom of the bottom tube was not, in my opinion, an improvement.

Or you can run the shift cable along the top tube and seat stay to keep it out of the way of your shoes.

markk900 02-19-15 07:16 PM

@JohnDThompson: agree - I like the run along the top tube better, but as my conversion was a Trek 600 I ended up using the braze-on shifter stop from the original frame as the stop for the fulcrum clip, and the original plastic cable guide under the BB for the bare shifter wire. It's all nicely tucked in and I was kinda chuffed to be able to stay true to the original shift cable run, if for no other reason than I could.

michaelz28 02-19-15 07:26 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 17568800)
I did this (Plan B) with my Trek conversion after doing all the research that @desconhecido posted a couple of posts later.....Originally was going to get longer axle (needing a longer indicator chain BTW), but then just built up a "normal" wheel with the standard axle, cold set the frame (didn't take a lot of effort), and never looked back.

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/a...psc9345405.jpg

I did do a "practice run" using my Peugeot frame (cold setting for the IGH), then a year later cold set it back again to return it to a derailleur bike. Again, not a big issue though it was harder to keep the dropouts parallel with the Peugeot!

Edit: one other thing is that I laced the AW hub to a 700c rim rather than a 650A size...that's the Alex DM18 rim you see in the picture and it's quite nice for $20. New DT spokes and no spoke washers - I'll take my chances.

that " shepherds hook " cable connection is junk . i put on on my stingray and it bent first shot . if you cant find a factory cable use this one . it on ebay some where . http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/h...psvcgxzyyw.jpg

BigChief 02-19-15 07:54 PM

Every once in a while I run into something like a ratty, beat up Super Course for cheap and entertain the idea of restoring the finish and fitting it with a modern 5 speed S/A hub. Then I remember all the times I've hit rocks, washed out shoulders and potholes and realize that a bike with a 2030 frame and 26" wheels with a zillion spokes isn't a bad idea. At least where I live.

Velocivixen 02-19-15 08:26 PM

Excellent information. I have a 1985 Nishiki Riviera Mixte and I will not cold set a mixte for fear that middle seat stay will come away from the seat tube. It's just tacked on I believe. I'm also toying with a 650B conversion. My 1987 Miyata One Twelve mixte will work. I've checked the exact numbers & measurements a few times. I'm looking at the Pacenti PL23 or Synergy A23. Likely Pacenti Pari-Moto tires or so.

English3Speed 02-20-15 01:21 AM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 17568520)
Hopefully, somebody who actually knows something will answer this question. But, that's never stopped me before, so until the right answer comes:

According to Sheldon's (which includes some info about this) site, the axle needs to be 31 mm longer than the OLD. SA had at least 3 axle lengths for the AW hubs which were:

5 3/4 (146 mm 115mm OLD)
6 1/4 (159 mm 128 mm OLD)
6 13/32 (163 mm 132 OLD)

Replacement axles in all three lengths appear to be available either at Harris, Niagara, or ebay. Prices shipped to you on the order of $15 to $25.

. . . Any of these axles will fit into any of the AW hubs as all the machinings, gear, slot, etc, are dimensionally the same with respect to the hub body. All the length differences are accounted for outside the cones. . . . You can plug one of the longer axles in an AW hub and have it spaced out for 126 mm or 130 mm. The 63 mm axles should work with either and just have a little extra length on the left side if used in a 120 mm or 126 mm hub.

If you were to do this, you may need to adjust spacer placement so that the right side axle nut works properly and you may need a different indicator chain. Just guessing. Dishing may be required.


I've done this twice times. Issues are
- Axle length
- Anti rotation washers
- Indicator spindle

I've used the 6" axles, and they worked fine.

Axles - easy to find, work to install
On the first bicycle, I removed the AW internals as a whole (including the axle) from a wheel from a DL1 that had the longer axle and put them in a wheel with a SA hub shell I'd laced for the derailleur frame.

The other time, a friend had laced a wheel but did not know longer axles existed, so the axle was too short for his frame. I replaced the original 5" axle in his hub with a longer 6" axle and it fit fine. This involves disassembling the original AW hub and reassembling it around the longer axle. The other parts will work fine with the longer axle, but you will have to rebuild the gear assembly.

Indicator Spindles - keep your original
One dealer I went to years ago told me that at different times Raleigh had made indicator spindles in at least 6 different lengths; spindles I've bought from different sources have a surprising number of different lengths.

I've stopped trying to adjust the spindle using the window in the nut; I've found if I keep the neutral setting between 2nd and 3rd (not too close to either one) this can adjust the gear without having to have the correct spindle.

Antirotation washers
The 3 speed frames (and hence most AW hubs) have 7.8mm washers; for later frames built for derailleurs you'll most likely want the newer wider 9.5 mm washers. Sheldon Brown and John Allen have more detail on the different washers used over time (Sturmey-Archer Internal-Gear Hubs, Tech Tips); choose the best one for your frame.

Replacing the washers when you install the wheel is simple. Evidently the 9.5mm washers are available from Harris & likely other sources.

gster 02-20-15 04:42 PM


Originally Posted by adventurepdx (Post 17561472)
That bike shop sounds jerky, but a lot of shops simply "don't get" three speeds. One shop made suggestions for my old Rudge Sports, which was in perfectly good shape (mostly due to sixty-fiver.) They said what would make things "better" is replace the wheel with a single speed and replace the crankset with a modern cotterless. Of course the Rudge chainring is most of the charm of the bike! To be fair, they were generally a decent shop that did good work, but their focus was on new.

I too have met with resistance at some of the bike shops here in Toronto but I want to relate a positive experience I had today with Urbane Cyclist on John St.
Urbane Cyclist Worker Co-op Bicycle Store | 180 John St. Toronto M5T 1X5
Your Search: "sturmey archer" - Urbane Cyclist Bicycle Store | Toronto M5T 1X5
Looking at their website, they had a page of Sturmey Archer parts and the elusive Fulcrum Stop was listed as in stock. it's the only thing I need to complete my 1937 Hercules Falcon. I made the trek downtown and although the Parts Manager assured me he had some (27 in stock) he couldn't find them....
He just called me to say that they'd been located and would put a couple aside for pick up. This was a fair bit of work for a $2.00 part!
They also carry the correct size cotter pins.
Martin at Hoop Driver on College is also very helpful.
Hoopdriver Bicycles ? Distinctive Urban and Touring Bicycles

adventurepdx 02-21-15 12:37 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 17571505)
I too have met with resistance at some of the bike shops here in Toronto but I want to relate a positive experience I had today with Urbane Cyclist on John St...Martin at Hoop Driver on College is also very helpful.
Hoopdriver Bicycles ? Distinctive Urban and Touring Bicycles

Martin is the man! Haven't seen him in years.

gster 02-21-15 03:27 PM


Originally Posted by adventurepdx (Post 17573411)
Martin is the man! Haven't seen him in years.

I think he started out as a bike courier in Vancouver....

gster 02-21-15 04:07 PM

5 Attachment(s)
1937 Falcon Update
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=435411
I've re routed the gear cable through a fulcrum and pulley.
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=435412http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=435413
Added some block pedals.
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=435416
And now it's ready to go...
We just need the weather to co operate!
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=435417

adventurepdx 02-21-15 04:20 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 17573906)
We just need the weather to co operate!
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=435417

Weather's been co-operating here! :thumb:
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/...3b0eda326b.jpg
(note: that's from two weeks ago!)

forestine 02-21-15 04:22 PM

Falcon looks so good! We have less snow but every time I sign onto the weather network I get the scary red windchill warning death bar at the top of the screen. So jealous of PDX...

Velocivixen 02-21-15 10:04 PM

So excited that my NOS Sturmey Archer Sport headlight lens & chrome ring arrived, along with tail light lens & ring. Here they are:
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8682/...0570b4f5_c.jpgNOS SA Lens & Ring by velocivixen, on Flickr
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8636/...e9ecf51b_c.jpgReplacement Lens & Chrome Ring by velocivixen, on Flickr
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8602/...d906918e_c.jpgNOS SA Tail Light Lens & Ring by velocivixen, on Flickr
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8664/...fafcdd5b_c.jpgReplacement Sturmey Lens by velocivixen, on Flickr

forestine 02-21-15 10:37 PM

The new lenses are perfect with your lights! Good find.

Salubrious 02-21-15 11:13 PM

Sweet.

Velocivixen 02-22-15 01:18 AM

The price was right too. Front lens & ring was close to $10, and rear was like $8.50.

Still awaiting the Col de la Vie 650A tire to arrive. Hopefully by Tuesday.

gna 02-22-15 02:41 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 17561384)
The correct answer is 'its an AW'. Like master Sheldon Brown says, paraphrasing: 'AW' might as well mean 'Always Works'.

Nah, that was Bikesmith (Mark Stonich). See page 2.

gna 02-22-15 02:47 PM

@forestine and @nelsonmilum:

I've met a few 3 speeders from the Winnipeg area. They may be able to help you out. Luckyrob is on the Gentleman Cyclist Google group.

nelsonmilum 02-22-15 04:01 PM

Thanks @gna, I'll try to figure out google groups later. In other news, I actually went into a volunteer run community bike shop called the Bike Dump here in Winnipeg. The folks were super friendly, casual, and helpful, I learned how to overhaul my BB and headset - not in my three speed, but similar parts, so I'll be well equipped next time I go in.

PalmettoUpstate 02-22-15 10:18 PM


Originally Posted by nelsonmilum (Post 17560000)
Hey everyone, thanks for all of the really positive comments! Here's the before and afters for the "His" portion of the Eaton's Gliders
New Tires, Kool Stops, Cables & Housings, A lovely Brooks Flyer Special, and a Chinese "Golden Cat" Bottle Dynamo Light set. I've got to say I'm pretty happy with the way this turned out.

In the Antique Shop:

01:03:2015 untitiled 0851 by Lindsay.Joy, on Flickr

In the Living Room:

P2160005 by nelson_milum, on Flickr


P2160006 by nelson_milum, on Flickr

Bike looks great but I don't understand the doinker angle at which the handlebars are set. Do you ride it?


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