Bike Forums

Bike Forums (https://www.bikeforums.net/forum.php)
-   Classic & Vintage (https://www.bikeforums.net/forumdisplay.php?f=181)
-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

arex 04-25-16 08:35 PM

A mockup. Things aren't quite where they ought to be yet. I may or may not narrow the handlebars about three inches, since these are quite a bit wider than stock.

http://i.imgur.com/rDL2SxK.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/z3X9lr5.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/U4WmJb4.jpg

agmetal 04-25-16 09:45 PM

I just picked this up today:

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...39&oe=57BF32B3
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...6a&oe=57A1731E
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...06&oe=57B3CBA8
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...8e&oe=579E42E4
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...47&oe=57A2B712
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...4f&oe=57B25B40
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...ec&oe=57BDEC25
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...28&oe=57AB24D6

BigChief 04-26-16 04:46 AM


Originally Posted by arex (Post 18716439)
Putting in a threadless headset, using the original top nut and a spacer, so I can use an tall quill stem. Rather than use multiple spacers to fill the gap, I have a piece of thick-wall aluminum tube that I need to cut to length and open up the inside to the full 25.4mm ((currently 24.8mm or so).

I don't know that it's a work-around, so much as accepting the situation and hoping it'll do for the long term. I'll check the cups regularly and tighten as necessary...short of putting in a different bottom bracket, I can't think of anything else to do.

A few pages back, Velocivixen said that since the headset upgrade she made on her 20, she was unhappy with the handling and was considering replacing the original system. I found this interesting because it made me think that perhaps the nylon bushing in the headset wasn't a cost cutting measure, but an effort by Raleigh engineers to damp the steering.

noglider 04-26-16 08:11 AM

@Velocivixen, my gut feeling is that flexing forward is only part of the problem with those brakes, and it might even be a small part. Please let us know how it goes. My intuition says that it's flexing in the direction of the compression of the arms.

@BigChief, maybe the plastic bushing is to dampen steering, but whatever the thinking, I think it's pretty horrible. Eventually, I will get back to renovating my Twenty. I'm putting in a threadless headset with proper bearings on top and bottom.

Velocivixen 04-26-16 08:32 AM

@BigChief - I'm pretty sure someone on this thread (Not 100%, but maybe @Sixty Fiver) said something along the lines that the nylon bushing wanted to make steering feel like a Raleigh Sport - more "normal", and that for bike folding when you loosen the clamp at the top of the headset the handlebars don't go wildly spinning. As you lower the stem into the folded position the nylon bushing acts to dampen the movement a bit, so you're not fighting with handlebars moving around too much as you lower. At least that's my takeaway.

The modern headset on my first Twenty is very smooth, but it makes the bike feel slightly more responsive, I guess you'd say. I know Sheldon Brown said you can't ride no handed with the original nylon bushing. I don't ride it no handed anyway - that'd be so unBritish. :thumb:
@noglider - I'll keep you posted on my experiment with the zip ties. When I got the bike a couple weeks ago I trued up the wheels, polished the chrome rims, installed Cane Creek Grey Matter brake pads (soft material great for steel) and noted some squealing. I used a big wrench to turn the caliper arms to allow the brake pads to run parallel to the rim and even a tiny bit toed in, and most of the squealing disappeared. As I rode the bike in the rain storm I got caught in I noted the front caliper arms shuddering near the final stop of my braking. I recalled someone, from a different site, if I recall, put zip ties on so I figured I'd give it a go. It seemed to stop the shuddering, but in all fairness by the time I got home and out on zip ties I was wet and didn't go back out for any extended ride.

Its supposed to be wet tomorrow, so I will go out and see how or what it does.

noglider 04-26-16 09:24 AM

The zip ties might remedy the shuddering, but shuddering doesn't decrease overall stopping power. It just makes braking unpleasant and sometimes hard to control.

gster 04-27-16 08:03 AM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 18705460)
Like all things British: oil leaks by design to prevent rust and to remind you to add oil every once in a while!

Yes! Even at the British Motor Cycle Museum in Birmingham, all of the bikes had a puddle of oil under them.

gster 04-27-16 08:56 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Lt Uhura on a Moulton....
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=518382

gster 04-27-16 09:23 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Toronto Vintage Bicycle Show 2016
The date is July 24th this year and will be held at Trinity Bellwoods Park.
More details and poster to follow.
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=518388

agmetal 04-27-16 10:12 AM

So, a couple days ago I posted pictures of a 1975 Tourist that I'd picked up. I've been in search of something REALLY old, though, having been inspired by the realization that the AW hub is 80 years old this year, along with seeing and servicing a customer's beautiful '50s lady Sports with full chain case. I picked up that bike since it was a good deal for a DL-1 in this area, and since it has the rod brakes, it still looks like a much older model. However, while talking to a coworker about it (specifically, about sourcing parts), he called up a friend who has something even closer to what I've been looking for. I'll hold off on specifics until I actually have the bike in hand (probably tomorrow), but what can you guys tell me about the K type hub, as compared to the AW?

Salubrious 04-27-16 10:33 AM

^^ K type?? Dang! I can understand the reluctance! Dates from about 1918 till about 1936 when the AW seems to supplant it. Very similar to the AW and is a reliable hub. Seems to me the ratios on the AW are a little wider (the low gear on a K is 25% less than that of 2nd). There is a lot of information on the K hub; its a very pretty design on the outside.

3speedslow 04-27-16 10:54 AM

+10 if that K hub comes with the correct shifter ! Pics when you score.

noglider 04-27-16 01:01 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 18722622)
^^ K type?? Dang! I can understand the reluctance! Dates from about 1918 till about 1936 when the AW seems to supplant it. Very similar to the AW and is a reliable hub. Seems to me the ratios on the AW are a little wider (the low gear on a K is 25% less than that of 2nd). There is a lot of information on the K hub; its a very pretty design on the outside.

I can't tell the difference in looks between a K and an AW, by this picture. And the ratios are the same, according to the info therein.

http://www.sturmey-archerheritage.co...tos/pic-25.jpg

agmetal 04-27-16 01:27 PM

I saw an exploded diagram of it, and it definitely looks different from what I've been able to see. Really looking forward to getting my hands on this bike and checking it out - not sure I've ever ridden a real English roadster before!

The question now, is what to do with the '75? Get the missing parts and make it rideable as more-or-less stock, or do something else with it (i.e., path racer-inspired build kinda like a Pashley Guvnor?)?

BigChief 04-27-16 02:42 PM

Somebody here made a path racer out of a DL-1. Can't remember who now, but I remember the bike. Very sharp. All stripped down with cream colored tires.

agmetal 04-27-16 03:34 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 18723343)
Somebody here made a path racer out of a DL-1. Can't remember who now, but I remember the bike. Very sharp. All stripped down with cream colored tires.

That'd be awesome...I think that to do what I would really want, though, I'd need to get drum brakes (and probably build up new wheels), which quickly gets expensive. Hmmm....

dweenk 04-27-16 03:54 PM


Originally Posted by agmetal (Post 18718671)
I just picked this up today:

Nice. If you have trouble finding a rear fender, i know a guy who has a pair (NOS, I doubt that he would sell a single).

agmetal 04-27-16 05:36 PM


Originally Posted by dweenk (Post 18723511)
Nice. If you have trouble finding a rear fender, i know a guy who has a pair (NOS, I doubt that he would sell a single).

Given the condition of the rest of the bike, I think NOS would look a little bit out of place

gster 04-27-16 06:54 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by agmetal (Post 18723719)
Given the condition of the rest of the bike, I think NOS would look a little bit out of place

The brake linkages on the Tourist are the hardest/most expensive parts to find/replace and your's look to be complete.The Tourist rims only work with the rod and lever brakes so I would tidy it up a bit, remove the front fender and yes, make it a Path Racer of sorts. The most expensive item would be a new leather saddle but there seem to be plenty of used ones around. Here's one (not mine) that Jon built.
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=518474

SirMike1983 04-27-16 06:58 PM

The K and the AW have some differences. Probably the most relevant is that the K's clutch engagement is different. One of the issues with the 3 speed was that one could engage both normal and high gears at once if the cable was mal adjusted (clutch engages both the gear ring tabs and the pins at once. Sturmey had to engineer a way to avoid this.

The model K's solution is a clutch with ramped arms. If the K's clutch engages both normal and high, the ramps rub against the gear ring tabs and force the clutch back into third gear. The hub does not go into "no gear" or "neutral", but instead goes back into high in this scenario. The issue was that this design led to increased wear on the clutches and to higher production costs. The AW avoids these problems with a modified clutch: the AW avoids the normal-high simultaneous engagement issue by having the clutch spin freely between where it would engage those two gears. The result is the notorious "no gear". The main virtue here was that it was much cheaper to produce the plainer, unramped AW clutches than the K clutches.

The K shares the early AW's use of a threaded cog as well, which makes changes more challenging than the later "3 tab" design.

BigChief 04-28-16 04:23 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 18723884)
The brake linkages on the Tourist are the hardest/most expensive parts to find/replace and your's look to be complete.The Tourist rims only work with the rod and lever brakes so I would tidy it up a bit, remove the front fender and yes, make it a Path Racer of sorts. The most expensive item would be a new leather saddle but there seem to be plenty of used ones around. Here's one (not mine) that Jon built.
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=518474


Yeah, that's it. Looks like it has a 3 speed coaster brake on the rear. What a sharp bike.

agmetal 04-28-16 08:15 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 18723884)
The brake linkages on the Tourist are the hardest/most expensive parts to find/replace and your's look to be complete.The Tourist rims only work with the rod and lever brakes so I would tidy it up a bit, remove the front fender and yes, make it a Path Racer of sorts. The most expensive item would be a new leather saddle but there seem to be plenty of used ones around. Here's one (not mine) that Jon built.
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=518474

I've got most of the parts for the rod brakes - missing the front stirrup, and the linkage rod it attaches to is bent. The rear is all there, though.

That's an interesting build - any idea how they've got the front brake actually connected? That's definitely not the original handlebar...


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 18723892)
The K and the AW have some differences. Probably the most relevant is that the K's clutch engagement is different. One of the issues with the 3 speed was that one could engage both normal and high gears at once if the cable was mal adjusted (clutch engages both the gear ring tabs and the pins at once. Sturmey had to engineer a way to avoid this.

The model K's solution is a clutch with ramped arms. If the K's clutch engages both normal and high, the ramps rub against the gear ring tabs and force the clutch back into third gear. The hub does not go into "no gear" or "neutral", but instead goes back into high in this scenario. The issue was that this design led to increased wear on the clutches and to higher production costs. The AW avoids these problems with a modified clutch: the AW avoids the normal-high simultaneous engagement issue by having the clutch spin freely between where it would engage those two gears. The result is the notorious "no gear". The main virtue here was that it was much cheaper to produce the plainer, unramped AW clutches than the K clutches.

The K shares the early AW's use of a threaded cog as well, which makes changes more challenging than the later "3 tab" design.

Thanks for the info, this is good stuff to know. I'm pretty good about making sure that my 3-speed hubs are properly adjusted, so hopefully I won't run into any issues. One interesting thing I noticed from looking at exploded diagrams is the shape of the clutch - it has me thinking that the K probably has a bit less lash than the AW, which is a constant source of annoyance for me on my Stupid Franken-3-Speed (probably because of the way I ride it). Anyway, I should be checking out this bike this morning, so I'll see it in person soon enough!

DQRider 04-28-16 08:17 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 18724441)
Yeah, that's it. Looks like it has a 3 speed coaster brake on the rear. What a sharp bike.

I see he is still using the rod brake on the front - but what kind of lever/linkage scheme is that? When I built mine, I could only find two options for the handlebar and linkage - one was a used original on eBay at a very dear price, and the one I bought was an India/Eastman from Yellow Jersey. Here I see some kind of North Roads bar mounted upside-down, and something chrome sticking out the front. Do you have photos of this bike from other angles, so I can see what he did there?

gster 04-28-16 08:45 AM


Originally Posted by DQRider (Post 18724791)
I see he is still using the rod brake on the front - but what kind of lever/linkage scheme is that? When I built mine, I could only find two options for the handlebar and linkage - one was a used original on eBay at a very dear price, and the one I bought was an India/Eastman from Yellow Jersey. Here I see some kind of North Roads bar mounted upside-down, and something chrome sticking out the front. Do you have photos of this bike from other angles, so I can see what he did there?

More info on this bike here:
https://threespeedmania.wordpress.co...igh-tourist-2/

and here:
old three-speed gallery: The Evil Twin

Velocivixen 04-28-16 09:05 AM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 18719541)
The zip ties might remedy the shuddering, but shuddering doesn't decrease overall stopping power. It just makes braking unpleasant and sometimes hard to control.

Tom, I'm glad you posted this. In my mind, the shuddering equated with poor stopping power, but as you put it, the shudder is annoying but different from stopping power. I will definitely pay closer attention to the shudder and stopping power to see just how those zip ties are making a difference.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:50 AM.


Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.