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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

adventurepdx 09-18-18 11:55 AM


Originally Posted by tigervw78 (Post 20570898)
I wish we had a group of 3 speed enthusiasts in the Memphis area...From what I can tell it's mainly cyclists and mountain bikers here.

How about a Tweed Ride?

Many cities around the world have them, though I can't find any current info for Memphis. While a Tweed Ride isn't a Three Speed Ride, there is overlap, and there will most likely be a few people on old Raleigh Sports. So it's a good way to connect with those folks, and maybe you can start some rides? :)

BigChief 09-18-18 11:57 AM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 20572763)
Call the guy. We have business in Virginia Beach in a week or so.

Yeah, wouldn't hurt to call. I think I can see a hand chainring, but I'm not certain. Could be early 60s. Hard to find the older Rudges in 23" these days.

thumpism 09-18-18 02:22 PM

Well, I have some encouraging news to report. I stopped by the antique shop I've posted about before in order to pass a rainy day and have news on two bikes. This ladies' Sports is now gone! Don't know who'd be interested in such a rusty machine but I hope it found a good home. Yay!
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5797abe6b2.jpg

The nifty little blue Hercules is still there but the price is coming down. It was $65 the first time I asked, then $50 the second time and yesterday it was $30. I don't need it and I don't particularly want it, and if it had the chainguard I probably would have bought it for thirty, but I did not want to offer twenty or less because she might have taken it and then I'd have the bike. Somebody? I'll hold it until you can pick it up. By the way, that is a Hawthorne branded (probably actually a Stewart-Warner Cadet) speedometer on it.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f08967d673.jpg

Buellster 09-18-18 02:30 PM

A very sad looking pair of ridges has actually popped up in my area.
They look like they may be beyond help but it is interesting to see a pair here. First time I've seen any in pdx since I got into three speeds.

I dont know why the handlebars are turned around?
weird choice.
heres the link
Rudgeshttps://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1c9d5b2f71.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8ba3fd3818.jpg

desconhecido 09-18-18 04:02 PM

Sad doesn't begin to describe those two. About those bars: reminds me of the old saying that somebody doesn't know whether he's coming or going.

Buellster 09-18-18 04:04 PM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20573451)
Sad doesn't begin to describe those two. About those bars: reminds me of the old saying that somebody doesn't know whether he's coming or going.

Right?
I was so excited when I saw rudge and then so sad when I saw the pics haha
seriously, Its like when somebody takes road bars and points them to the sky. Just odd.

BigChief 09-18-18 04:56 PM


Originally Posted by Buellster (Post 20573455)
Right?
I was so excited when I saw rudge and then so sad when I saw the pics haha
seriously, Its like when somebody takes road bars and points them to the sky. Just odd.

I'm only seeing the red one. It's an early 50s model. Since it's worth next to nothing, it would be worth picking up for the frameset except there looks to be some sort of lug welded to the back of the head tube. I have seen lugs like that to support large front racks like the English mail bikes, but it does ruin the frame. It looks like the Hand of Ulster crank is rusted beyond cleaning up, but it's hard to say only seeing this picture. The window shifter may be salvageable.

cudak888 09-18-18 04:58 PM

1950's Rudge with a locking fork? Even in that shape, it's tempting at a cheap enough price. Looks like a Dynothree or Dynofour on it too.

-Kurt

desconhecido 09-18-18 05:33 PM

Looks like the other one has a dynohub as well. That's some serious stuff, right there. I'm not even sure if it rises to the level of neglect. Perhaps there should be a Society to Prevent Cruelty to 3-Speed Bikes -- SPC3. Sort of like "Save the Skeets."

clubman 09-18-18 05:57 PM


Originally Posted by cudak888 (Post 20573555)
1950's Rudge with a locking fork? Even in that shape, it's tempting at a cheap enough price. Looks like a Dynothree or Dynofour on it too.

-Kurt

Wondering how you spotted that? The long R-to-L shot from the ad? Those top-o-downtube locks were almost always Humber.

:thumb:

cudak888 09-18-18 06:02 PM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20573622)
Looks like the other one has a dynohub as well. That's some serious stuff, right there. I'm not even sure if it rises to the level of neglect. Perhaps there should be a Society to Prevent Cruelty to 3-Speed Bikes -- SPC3. Sort of like "Save the Skeets."

Two pics. One bike. Same bar grips.


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20573660)
Wondering how you spotted that? The long R-to-L shot from the ad? Those top-o-downtube locks were almost always Humber.

:thumb:

I spotted the lock cylinder on the lower headtube lug in pic #1 . Looks like a big wart. Pic #2 shows the central-mounted receiver below the crown. Almost missed it, but something looked different.

I'll admit, it's a shambles, but if you can snag it for $25, I'd oxalic dump the whole thing in a kiddie pool, throw some Raleigh fenders on it (better yet if they're pre-Tube Industries) and a chaincase if I were so lucky, and have the rattiest pre-TI 3-speed in the C&V Clunker Challenge.

I'd probably be a sucker for this one if I was standing right next to it, but I'm not, thank god. That, and it isn't a 23" frame.

-Kurt

BigChief 09-18-18 06:14 PM


Originally Posted by cudak888 (Post 20573668)
Two pics. One bike. Same bar grips.



I spotted the lock cylinder on the lower headtube lug in pic #1 . Looks like a big wart. Pic #2 shows the central-mounted receiver below the crown. Almost missed it, but something looked different.

I'll admit, it's a shambles, but if you can snag it for $25, I'd oxalic dump the whole thing in a kiddie pool, throw some Raleigh fenders on it (better yet if they're pre-Tube Industries) and a chaincase if I were so lucky, and have the rattiest pre-TI 3-speed in the C&V Clunker Challenge.

I'd probably be a sucker for this one if I was standing right next to it, but I'm not, thank god. That, and it isn't a 23" frame.

-Kurt

A lock. Ah... I didn't recognize it as a lock. Come to think of it, I have seen that style of lock in catalog scans. Well then, the frameset isn't ruined.Framesets in this sorry state with a finish that's beyond preservation do offer the possibility of a platform for a like new restoration. So yes, even a 21" of this vintage would be worthwhile to bring home for 25 bucks.

Buellster 09-18-18 06:18 PM

I was thinking that was the same bike in both!
maybe the unpictured one is in decent shape... probably not though haha
I'd consider it for 25, but for 100 I'm not going anywhere near it!

cudak888 09-18-18 06:20 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20573683)
A lock. Ah... I didn't recognize it as a lock. Come to think of it, I have seen that style of lock in catalog scans. Well then, the frameset isn't ruined.Framesets in this sorry state and beyond preservation do offer the possibility of a platform for a like new restoration. So yes, even a 21" of this vintage would be worthwhile to bring home for 25 bucks.

It's probably a solid frame under all the rust, if someone wished to go through the effort of blasting it and repainting it. Should have the full chaincase braze-on by default too.

These are a bit heavier than the later TI-era Raleighs and have really thick chainstays, but they blow the '60s and '70s frames out of the water. Stiff, strong, and built like a tank. The later frames are mere imitations of these, if not on the level of a Chinese copy. Once you've owned one from this era, it's hard to go back to the run-of-the-mill Rampar-badged stuff.

-Kurt

Buellster 09-18-18 06:54 PM

I messaged the to ask for pics of bike #2 ...

heres hoping it's in better shape.
if he wants 100 for both, 25 for one may not be too insane.
its gotta be a 23" though.

BigChief 09-18-18 07:03 PM


Originally Posted by cudak888 (Post 20573693)
It's probably a solid frame under all the rust, if someone wished to go through the effort of blasting it and repainting it. Should have the full chaincase braze-on by default too.

These are a bit heavier than the later TI-era Raleighs and have really thick chainstays, but they blow the '60s and '70s frames out of the water. Stiff, strong, and built like a tank. The later frames are mere imitations of these, if not on the level of a Chinese copy. Once you've owned one from this era, it's hard to go back to the run-of-the-mill Rampar-badged stuff.

-Kurt

I just finished this 51 Rudge. I noticed the frame seemed heavier than the 23" TI Raleigh I did just before.I was wondering if it had to do with the steel used for the tubes. Raleigh didn't start touting their High Tensile steel until later in the 50s. I was wondering if perhaps the frame is heavier because it's made from a more mild steel. The hockey stick chainguard is original .Heavier or not, I'm in love with this one.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0c90e7a534.jpg

cudak888 09-18-18 07:09 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20573748)
I just finished this 51 Rudge. I noticed the frame seemed heavier than the 23" TI Raleigh I did just before.I was wondering if it had to do with the steel used for the tubes. Raleigh didn't start touting their High Tensile steel until later in the 50s. I was wondering if perhaps the frame is heavier because it's made from a more mild steel. The hockey stick chainguard is original .Heavier or not, I'm in love with this one.

Thicker tubing, sturdier lugs, those huge seatstays, and that thick enamel paint all add up quite a bit.

Whether it's more mild or not, these things are a stiff as a butcher block. I'd have reservations about a fast descent on a TI-industries frame, but wouldn't think twice of it on of these. Hockey stick probably indicates that the bike was intended for the US market.

You won't regret hanging onto that one. Virtually identical to my '51 Sports sans the full chaincase. If you can manage to snag an original Rudge chaincase in comparable condition to match, I'd recommend it, even if it'd be toying with originality. Makes them really distinct, and it's rather reassuring to have the chain out of the elements and one's trouser leg.

-Kurt

desconhecido 09-18-18 07:19 PM


Originally Posted by cudak888 (Post 20573668)
Two pics. One bike. Same bar grips.

[...]
-Kurt

I don't know if we're looking at the same pics or not.

What I see:
Pic 1 shows a bike with the bars mounted backwards, a small flange front hub and a Dyno hub rear. Pic 2 shows a bike with the bars mounted the other way, a IGH in the rear with no dyno, and a detached front wheel with a G6. Two bikes, both red, 4 distinct hubs.Pic 3 says Dremel , pics 4, 5, 6, 7 --same bike as in 1,

The only pic of bike 2 is Pic 2. edit: bike in pic2 shows none of the green paint and shows no grips. I know thes pics are odd as the later pics of bike 1 show it in the same physical location as the bike in pic 2, but I don't think it's the same bike.

edit again: bike in pic 2 has a chain on it and a replacement left pedal.

cudak888 09-18-18 07:26 PM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20573774)
I don't know if we're looking at the same pics or not.

What I see:
Pic 1 shows a bike with the bars mounted backwards, a small flange front hub and a Dyno hub rear. Pic 2 shows a bike with the bars mounted the other way, a IGH in the rear with no dyno, and a detached front wheel with a G6. Two bikes, both red, 4 distinct hubs.Pic 3 says Dremel , pics 4, 5, 6, 7 --same bike as in 1,

The only pic of bike 2 is Pic 2.

Crap - now I see the link to the ad. Only saw the two pics in the thread until now.

The one with the Dynothree/Dynofour is the one I've been mentioning. Seller will never get his $100, but perhaps that's just helping save someone from a much larger job than the $40 those two are barely worth. Admittedly, even though the Dynohubs and rims are interesting and probably worth more than $40 (if I know the chrome on these '50s Westwoods, possibly quite decent and salvageable under all that crud), the fact that you have to drag the frames along isn't as much a perk as a potential pain in the butt. Even stripping them for parts and offering the remaining bits in Pay it Forward would be an unnecessary shipping effort.

-Kurt

desconhecido 09-18-18 07:41 PM


Originally Posted by cudak888 (Post 20573787)
Crap - now I see the link to the ad. Only saw the two pics in the thread until now.

The one with the Dynothree/Dynofour is the one I've been mentioning. Seller will never get his $100, but perhaps that's just helping save someone from a much larger job than the $40 those two are barely worth. Admittedly, even though the Dynohubs and rims are interesting and probably worth more than $40 (if I know the chrome on these '50s Westwoods, possibly quite decent and salvageable under all that crud), the fact that you have to drag the frames along isn't as much a perk as a potential pain in the butt. Even stripping them for parts and offering the remaining bits in Pay it Forward would be an unnecessary shipping effort.

-Kurt

That one with the green and red paint might be worth some coin if it can be verified to be a Jackson Pollock.

desconhecido 09-18-18 08:02 PM

Can those Rudge bikes be worth anything but salvage parts? It would be a major headache trying to source the parts, sheet metal and all, to put either back in an approximation of Rudgeness. If what is desired is a frame and some parts to create a "scorcher" or a pseudo-clubman or path racer or something, there are many Raleigh sports bikes available for not much which are probably much easier platforms. Of course, there is that chainwheel.

SirMike1983 09-18-18 08:05 PM

Keep the older tall frame if you like how it rides. It's getting harder to find a 23 inch frame from that earlier era, and they have a little "extra" to them, being from that era. Those frames earlier are a little heavier, but they're very well-made. They've got a cachet beyond the more common stuff. They're harder to replace if you regret selling later.

I had a late '40s Dawn Tourist tall frame that I sold. It was a solid bike but I sold it because my other Raleighs rode better. It had the chain case, generator set, the works - but I ended up preferring my 1958 Sports 4-speed. In fact, my 1974 Sports 3-speed also rode better than the Dawn Tourist.

Which brings up a point that I've found after messing around with old bikes for more years than I'd like to admit: each old bike has its own feel. I have a 1974 Sports that is a gem to ride, but had a late 1960s-era Raleigh that was pitiful and was supposedly the same basic product as the '74. I've had some dud Raleighs from the 1950s. I've had some great stuff from the 1950s as well.

You reach a point where you buy what appeals to you and see if you like the feel of the finished project. If not, sell it and move to the next project. If you're not careful, you end up with a garage full of old bikes and not enough space. But that's how it goes. There are worse outcomes.

thumpism 09-18-18 10:05 PM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 20573850)
If you're not careful, you end up with a garage full of old bikes and not enough space. But that's how it goes. There are worse outcomes.

If you're really not careful, you end up with a garage full of crap that is NOT old bikes and which gets in the way of acquiring more old bikes. But that's how it goes.

Do not let this happen to you.

gster 09-19-18 04:15 AM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 20573998)
If you're really not careful, you end up with a garage full of crap that is NOT old bikes and which gets in the way of acquiring more old bikes. But that's how it goes.

Do not let this happen to you.

Good advise.
In the past two days I've given two bikes away to deserving young people.
1971 Hercules has gone to a former student of mine, Jessica..
She recently broke up with her fiance and decided to make cycling part of her new start in life.
She doesn't mind riding a men's bike.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1ff769e001.jpg
A small frame men's bike that she was quite happy to receive.
I lowered the seat and bars. Saddle bags were not included...
1971 Superbe was given to my friend Tim's daughter who recently had
her bike stolen at university.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...304aef43a8.jpg
Again, seat and bars lowered. Pump was not included.
I made a promise to myself to only hang onto 23" bikes.
It's not a big dent in the fleet but it's a start.

gster 09-19-18 04:17 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20573748)
I just finished this 51 Rudge. I noticed the frame seemed heavier than the 23" TI Raleigh I did just before.I was wondering if it had to do with the steel used for the tubes. Raleigh didn't start touting their High Tensile steel until later in the 50s. I was wondering if perhaps the frame is heavier because it's made from a more mild steel. The hockey stick chainguard is original .Heavier or not, I'm in love with this one.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0c90e7a534.jpg

Nothing compares to a traditional black British roadster.

gster 09-19-18 04:26 AM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20573451)
Sad doesn't begin to describe those two. About those bars: reminds me of the old saying that somebody doesn't know whether he's coming or going.

I saw a guy recently, riding his bike with the forks spun around backwards.
I tried to talk to him but he said he wanted them like that......

adventurepdx 09-20-18 02:17 PM


Originally Posted by cudak888 (Post 20573762)
Thicker tubing, sturdier lugs, those huge seatstays, and that thick enamel paint all add up quite a bit. Whether it's more mild or not, these things are a stiff as a butcher block. I'd have reservations about a fast descent on a TI-industries frame, but wouldn't think twice of it on of these.

I won't disagree that the 50's Raleighs were nicer frames, but I have done plenty of fast descents on the later TI Industries frames. (Hello, Bay City Hill!) I think the wheels and brakes are more important than the frame when it comes to descents. It might be blasphemy, but I love the stopping power combination of modern aluminum rims with more modern brakes and Kool Stop pads. I've upgraded the wheels and brakes on all my three speeds.

Salubrious 09-20-18 02:38 PM

Just added N+1...

1960 Sports, 23" frame. The paint looks nearly new, with good chrome. One bug I've not seen before- the shifter doesn't like to be firmly tightened down on the handlebars. It does not more freely at that point- to make it work properly I have to back off the mounting bolt half a turn. Its raining pretty hard today so its a good day to clean and lube its bearings...

BigChief 09-20-18 08:51 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 20577150)
Just added N+1...

1960 Sports, 23" frame. The paint looks nearly new, with good chrome. One bug I've not seen before- the shifter doesn't like to be firmly tightened down on the handlebars. It does not more freely at that point- to make it work properly I have to back off the mounting bolt half a turn. Its raining pretty hard today so its a good day to clean and lube its bearings...

That style shifter has a spacer bar down by the mounting screw. It's meant to resist deforming the case as you tighten the mounting screw. I suspect it may be missing.

BigChief 09-20-18 09:24 PM


Originally Posted by adventurepdx (Post 20577109)
I won't disagree that the 50's Raleighs were nicer frames, but I have done plenty of fast descents on the later TI Industries frames. (Hello, Bay City Hill!) I think the wheels and brakes are more important than the frame when it comes to descents. It might be blasphemy, but I love the stopping power combination of modern aluminum rims with more modern brakes and Kool Stop pads. I've upgraded the wheels and brakes on all my three speeds.

My scorcher has aluminum rims, Tektro R559 brakes and cable stops on the top tube. The brakes do feel luxurious, like having power brakes. Such a light touch, but as far as actual stopping distance when dry, I don't see a big advantage over the old brakes on steel rims. Good pads like Kool Stops or the Fibrax " Science" pads for steel rims and roughing up the rim sides with 220 sandpaper do make a world of difference. I'm sure if you did a side by side test, you could quantify some improvement, but it doesn't stand out much to me. Hydraulic discs on the other hand DO stand out. Very impressive to an old fart like me used to oldtime calipers.But I agree about the TI era frames. I've never had a problem with them.


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