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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

Stenavpix 11-09-18 11:24 AM

Here we go! The 1962 Royal in it's original outfitting. I found this on someone's blog called J-Turn. Says he took the photo in Ann Arbor in 2014-2016. "First up, a 1962 "Royal" 3-speed. I'm not sure whether this brand was made for a department store, but the bike is definitely a Raleigh product. I really like the stem, and it seems to fit the 23.8 mm clamp diameter. I'm interested. Last time I saw this bike, it was lying on its side close to a bike shop downtown with a flat tire."https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...93b82683ca.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b908d40799.jpg

BigChief 11-09-18 03:33 PM


Originally Posted by Stenavpix (Post 20655581)
Here we go! The 1962 Royal in it's original outfitting. I found this on someone's blog called J-Turn. Says he took the photo in Ann Arbor in 2014-2016. "First up, a 1962 "Royal" 3-speed. I'm not sure whether this brand was made for a department store, but the bike is definitely a Raleigh product. I really like the stem, and it seems to fit the 23.8 mm clamp diameter. I'm interested. Last time I saw this bike, it was lying on its side close to a bike shop downtown with a flat tire."https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...93b82683ca.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b908d40799.jpg

Good detective work again. This one has the correct trigger shifter. By then, the graphics were only printed on without embossing and flipped around to face upward. They also changed from the threaded ferrule to the ball type. White grips and cable housings were the fashion in the early 60s. This person changed the stem for a longer reach and ended up with the same problem of the shifter cable being too short. I've never seen this fork crown cap on any other Raleighs. Seems to be unique to Royals as far as I know.

Ballenxj 11-09-18 05:22 PM

If you guys haven't seen it already, this vintage 3 speed was posted in the ebay and craigslist thread by madpogue.
http://www.bikeforums.net/20654312-post48531.html

Stenavpix 11-09-18 05:43 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20655994)
Good detective work again. This one has the correct trigger shifter. By then, the graphics were only printed on without embossing and flipped around to face upward. They also changed from the threaded ferrule to the ball type. White grips and cable housings were the fashion in the early 60s. This person changed the stem for a longer reach and ended up with the same problem of the shifter cable being too short. I've never seen this fork crown cap on any other Raleighs. Seems to be unique to Royals as far as I know.

Boy, you guys are good! I'm learning so much! Thank you. Here's the shifter on mine, I see it's GB patent, the one on that one says US. How do you know which is correct?https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7ecc1633cd.jpg

clubman 11-09-18 05:47 PM

You see a number of Birmingham fork crowns on the 2nd tier marques in the early 60's timeframe. Raleigh chose to not throw away old stock and repurposed them into Nottingham models.

62 Dunelts

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e39d46487b.jpg


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c126e7a97e.png

Hawthorne Herc


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ea18feccc9.jpg

BigChief 11-09-18 09:11 PM


Originally Posted by Stenavpix (Post 20656162)
Boy, you guys are good! I'm learning so much! Thank you. Here's the shifter on mine, I see it's GB patent, the one on that one says US. How do you know which is correct?https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7ecc1633cd.jpg

Ah! Nice. Yours has the earlier style shifter. I much prefer these. 62 is a close call for the change. These have embossed, chrome plated brass face plates that were such a nice detail. You never see this kind of work on a bicycle anymore.These also have the threaded ferrules which make a more solid connection to the cable housing. Instead of the later ball and keyhole connection. This ferrule has a threaded stem that screws into a threaded hole in the shifter case. There;s a blank spot on the stem so when you screw it in all the way, it will come to the blank spot and spin freely, but the threaded section will keep it from backing out. To remove it, you pull back on the ferrule and turn it until the threads engage and it will back out.

BigChief 11-09-18 09:18 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20656168)
You see a number of Birmingham fork crowns on the 2nd tier marques in the early 60's timeframe. Raleigh chose to not throw away old stock and repurposed them into Nottingham models.

62 Dunelts

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e39d46487b.jpg


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c126e7a97e.png

Hawthorne Herc


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ea18feccc9.jpg

I see. I guess that also explains why you sometimes see Birmingham style mudguards on Raleigh framed Hercs in the early 60s.

gster 11-10-18 07:09 AM


Originally Posted by Stenavpix (Post 20656162)
Boy, you guys are good! I'm learning so much! Thank you. Here's the shifter on mine, I see it's GB patent, the one on that one says US. How do you know which is correct?https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7ecc1633cd.jpg

Yeah, that's a nice one.
The oil port on your BB also helps to date your bike.
These were discontinued shortly after your bike was built.
If you don't have a local bike shop, Amazon has the cable
https://www.amazon.com/Sturmey-Arche...+shifter+cable

dweenk 11-10-18 09:13 AM


Originally Posted by Stenavpix (Post 20656162)
Boy, you guys are good! I'm learning so much! Thank you. Here's the shifter on mine, I see it's GB patent, the one on that one says US. How do you know which is correct?https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7ecc1633cd.jpg

I think that shifter is a model GC3B that first appeared in 1956. The patent number and stamping location are consistent with that date. It was used until the early 1960's AFAIK.

BigChief 11-10-18 10:38 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20656681)
Yeah, that's a nice one.
The oil port on your BB also helps to date your bike.
These were discontinued shortly after your bike was built.
If you don't have a local bike shop, Amazon has the cable
https://www.amazon.com/Sturmey-Arche...+shifter+cable

That cable has the ball end ferrule, so be sure to save the threaded one on there now. Now that I think of it...since this bike is a 62, I'm not totally sure if it has the keyhole or threaded hole in the shifter body. I don't really know which change came first. The plain printed face plate without embossing or the keyhole. Well, you will be covered either way with that cable from Amazon. Another thing I like about the Amazon cable is the small cast end. They slide into the slot in the shifter cam easily. Those crimped on tubes you sometimes get tend to jam in the shifter.

SirMike1983 11-10-18 10:48 AM

A quick shot of the bottom bracket bell crank mechanism for an older model Phillips roadster. This one is a 1930s-era bike, but the catalogs show they were used for a larger number of years. These screw into a specially contoured nut that goes inside the bottom bracket. The nut is of a low enough profile that it does not impinge on the spindle.

Getting the bell crank to index back into place can be tricky - I used a small, crushable lock spacer from the hardware store to index this one back into place because it kept trying to unscrew. It locks up very tightly with the spacer.

This is a cleaner-looking but somewhat more fiddly system than the more common Raleigh, which uses a saddle-style lower bell crank that fits around the frame rather than into the lower surface of the bottom bracket.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YDnp0LwjO...104_121639.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6oNeijZBj...104_122356.jpg

The Phillips uses a side-mount rod connection, with the upper bell crank at the head/down tube lug. This is what connects, in turn, to the lower bell crank which itself is now screwed into place.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-i8Kd7t-aW...104_122346.jpg

BigChief 11-10-18 10:55 AM

As an aside note. As you most of you know, I've been into making custom cables for my project bikes for a while. A couple years ago I splurged on a Park Tool cable cutter. I've cut quite a few cables and housings since then and that tool is just as sharp and cuts just as clean as the day I bought it. It is far superior to the older piece of junk I was using. IMO, it is positively worth a few extra bucks to buy the Park Tool.

BigChief 11-10-18 11:01 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 20656934)
A quick shot of the bottom bracket bell crank mechanism for an older model Phillips roadster. This one is a 1930s-era bike, but the catalogs show they were used for a larger number of years. These screw into a specially contoured nut that goes inside the bottom bracket. The nut is of a low enough profile that it does not impinge on the spindle.

Getting the bell crank to index back into place can be tricky - I used a small, crushable lock spacer from the hardware store to index this one back into place because it kept trying to unscrew. It locks up very tightly with the spacer.

This is a cleaner-looking but somewhat more fiddly system than the more common Raleigh, which uses a saddle-style lower bell crank that fits around the frame rather than into the lower surface of the bottom bracket.

The Phillips uses a side-mount rod connection, with the upper bell crank at the head/down tube lug. This is what connects, in turn, to the lower bell crank which itself is now screwed into place.

Nice fix. Never saw this style brake linkage before. I love learning new things. Thanks for posting. Raining today. No ride for me. Wish I had a new project.

dweenk 11-10-18 01:12 PM

Inexpensive Hercules for someone in DC area
 
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e45ed31228.jpg
https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/...736349123.html

It looks rough, but I think it could be had for less.

DQRider 11-10-18 03:57 PM

Out of My Comfort Zone: 1948 Clubman Patina Preservation
 


I posted a while back with a photo of what I thought was a 1949 Raleigh Clubman frameset that I was going to buy from the "Shirt-tail Organizer" (STO) of the Lake Pepin 3-speed Tour, Jon Sharratt.

Well, we did the deal, and in the process of taking my "before" photos, I discovered by the serial number that this is actually a 1948 Raleigh-Lenton Clubman frameset.


https://i.imgur.com/asG95aB.png


Not a big deal, and it doesn't change any of my plans for this build, but I was surprised that the two years' models are practically identical.


https://i.imgur.com/SVqJQpE.png


Anyway, my plan for this build is to remove the rough surface rust, and chemically stabilize the incredible patina on this 70 year-old bicycle, before spraying it with several coats of clear enamel that I can polish to a brilliant finish.


https://i.imgur.com/teKYFZ1.png


I've been doing a lot of research into this relatively recent practice, and I find it fascinating. The end result is a kind of abstract-impressionist art form that highlights what Grant Petersen calls "beausage" (Beauty from Usage), paying homage to the history of the bike, instead of eliminating and covering it up to make it "good-as-new".


https://i.imgur.com/7TuiwWn.png


The details in this old hand-built Reynolds 531 frameset seem extraordinary in this era of tig-welded mass production bikes. I mean, look at these fancy cutaway lugs:

https://i.imgur.com/2YU9Aex.png


You just don't see this kind of craftsmanship anymore from the large manufacturers. This is now the province of high-dollar bespoke frame makers.


In order to emphasize this patina, and make this a nice-riding art project, I am using modern, black-colored hardware wherever possible, to keep the eye focused on the historic frameset.


Not to worry, though... The drivetrain is Sturmey Archer 3-speed, in black 700c wheels from a local company called "Handsome Cycles".



https://i.imgur.com/YvA8Uz2.png


This means dealing with what I consider the "Raleigh Curse"; the 26 tpi threading on vital components such as the bottom bracket and headset.


https://i.imgur.com/MpeIyAm.png


Believe it or not, I plan to use modern sealed-bearing hardware in these applications. I guess we'll see if I can actually make that work.


By the end of this weekend, I plan to have the frame all cleaned-up and the first coats of clear applied, so I can evaluate whether I want to continue down this path.

More updates to follow...


.

nlerner 11-10-18 05:48 PM

^ Very nice! I have a '49 Clubman, which I had out last weekend:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4835/...acf6441c_c.jpg

I think the sole difference between the '48 Lenton Clubman and the '49 Clubman is that the seat tube decal above the "C" says "Lenton Clubman" on the '48. I can't tell from your pic if that's still visible. I don't have a lot of faith in interpretations of the serial # system for Raleighs of this era, but I can report on mine if that would be helpful.

BigChief 11-10-18 05:51 PM

Even high dollar bespoke frame builders today use cast lugs. These lugs were press formed out of a single sheet of steel without seams. The skill level required to make these is impressive especially since the tooling was all hand made. To say they don't make them like they used to is an understatement.

nlerner 11-10-18 08:19 PM

Well, I don't actually think Raleigh paid as much attention to lug details as other, much smaller British builders in that era. Here's the head tube of my buddy's Maclean, which he was riding last weekend. Nervex lug, beautifully filed:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4886/...e520dc57_c.jpg

DQRider 11-10-18 09:28 PM



I'm constantly amazed by the depth of knowledge in this particular thread. You guys are something else. :thumb:

Here's the closest shot I have of that decal over the 'C' in "Clubman" on the ST:


https://i.imgur.com/cE4tzfr.png


I can't tell from this photo, but before I began cleaning this, I really thought it said "Raleigh", which would track with this being a `49, as nlerner says.

My source for the serial number info comes from Kurt Kaminer's site:

http://www.kurtkaminer.com/TH_raleigh_serials.html#47

1947 437689P to 556893P (unconfirmed)

1948 556894P to 695050P (unconfirmed)

1949 Serials 695051P and approximately up to and past 730807P (a serial known to exist on a '49 Clubman)

This tells me mine is a `48. FWIW, there is a 4-digit stamping on the bottom bracket that says "7374". Not sure what that means, but since I am not doing a restoration here, it's really not too important to me.

The objective here is to build a fun, unique bike that I can enjoy riding and talking to other riders about whenever I stop somewhere. I won't alter anything that cannot be put right by a subsequent owner, but I'm not curating a museum here. Like most of you, I build and ride bikes for fun.


.

BigChief 11-10-18 10:18 PM

It depends on your point of view I guess. My outlook on these industrial products is shaped by my experience. I was a tool and die maker for 30 years. Like my father and grandfather. All my life I heard stories about life on the shop floor. I have a very clear knowledge about how things were made back in the war time factories. The more you know about them, the more you learn to respect the skill and effort that went into building things like these old bicycles. It's a lot like when you walk out into a hay field up here in New England and look at those long stone rows along the edges and think wow, those people cleared this land with nothing but horses and man power and realize they were tougher than I'll ever be.

DQRider 11-11-18 02:25 AM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 20657390)
^ Very nice! I have a '49 Clubman, which I had out last weekend:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4835/...acf6441c_c.jpg

I think the sole difference between the '48 Lenton Clubman and the '49 Clubman is that the seat tube decal above the "C" says "Lenton Clubman" on the '48. I can't tell from your pic if that's still visible. I don't have a lot of faith in interpretations of the serial # system for Raleighs of this era, but I can report on mine if that would be helpful.


Sorry, but I guess I'm more interested in the ride quality than technical minutiae.

I'm an aerospace quality manager at work - I get enough tech every day by necessity. On my own time, I go all artsy-fartsy. ;)

Beautiful bike - I see that yours is virtually original, cottered cranks and all. How does it ride?


.

gster 11-11-18 05:08 AM

I like that word, Beausage.

gster 11-11-18 07:30 AM

What things really cost
An interesting BSA ad from 1953.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4e9745e273.jpg
Priced at 25 Pounds and 17 Shillings...
Today that would cost 617 Pounds or
$700.00 US
($924.00 CDN)

gster 11-11-18 07:34 AM

Listed as a 1940's Falcon.
British Falcon?
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1fb333a0cf.jpg

DQRider 11-11-18 07:45 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20657951)
What things really cost
An interesting BSA ad from 1953.

Priced at 25 Pounds and 17 Shillings...
Today that would cost 617 Pounds or
$700.00 US
($924.00 CDN)


That certainly puts things in perspective.
.


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