Originally Posted by scottfsmith
(Post 22557306)
Every rider has a different sense of personal pace. I am like you in that I crank up the hills, I view them as my "intervals". The watts can be double up the hill for me (yes I have a power meter). I ride with other people sometimes and notice they have a different emphasis, some are even more all-out on hills but most are more even on hills vs not. If you do go harder up the hills you are getting into a deficit which you need to earn back in the flats by taking it easier.
Anyway I agree I would try going more even with the watts to see how your pace compares. But, what you are doing currently is in fact a better workout because you are getting some high-intensity intervals in on those hills. |
Originally Posted by seypat
(Post 22557316)
I get to the top of a hill..............when I get there. No reason to tire myself out with miles to go before I sleep.
I live on a small hill in my neighborhood. There's this guy that makes laps through the neighborhood. As he approaches the start of the hill, he's looking around to see if people are out working in their yards. If the yards are empty, he stays in his saddle and casually goes up the hill. But if he has an audience, he's out of the saddle, dancing on the pedals and making noises like it's a Cat climb in the TDF. He really puts on a show.. It's pretty funny to watch. The only time I might be accused of showing off is making sure I get up those hills ahead of the rental bikes - my own pride won't let me get passed by a 45lbs Citibike when I'm in full lycra riding an 18lbs road bike... |
Originally Posted by koala logs
(Post 22557369)
The other riders are trying to maintain constant power output which should be the same thing you're supposed to be doing unless you're doing some sort of interval training.
It can be sustained power output if you're going round and round that circuit at constant power for more 15 minutes without stopping. It doesn't matter if the road pitches up or down especially if the gradient is not too big and you can still pedal and apply power on the descents. Training will definitely help in that case. |
Originally Posted by cyclezen
(Post 22557411)
I'm sorry... I like a good scoop of hyperbole at times, hence the FD and 'water bottle' thing... I'm just not skilled at making it obvious , often... :twitchy:
I am with you, with your approach and attitude for it all... and doing the Central Park loop can really get to you, if you don;t get some fun mind games goin... True for most any Park Loops, anywhere. Have a great time in SFO - Tunitas and Alpine/Pescadero were just 'perfect' in temps and quiet, last week... glad I can make the trip a couple times a year... Ride On Yuri |
Originally Posted by noimagination
(Post 22557692)
You sound pretty experienced, so it's unlikely that I know better than you. However, when I notice I'm having a similar experience (catch people on hills, they catch me on flats) it is usually because I'm working a lot harder on the climbs (because climbs are supposed to be hard) and not as hard on the flats. So, someone maintaining a more steady-state effort might get passed by me on a climb (when I'm working harder than they are) but might pass me on the flat (when the ratio between my power output and theirs is different).
|
Originally Posted by aliasfox
(Post 22556588)
Hi everyone,
Now that my wife is in the office a couple of days a week, we've started spending part of our time in Manhattan again. So instead of riding suburban and rural rail trails, I've started doing laps of Central Park after work. Not the most exciting ride, but it's the only place where I can get a little bit of climbing in relatively close to home. One thing I've noticed is that my performance isn't what I expect, and I was wondering if anybody had any thoughts. As one does laps around the park, one often ends up yo-yoing with other cyclists who ride at a similar pace. Depending on traffic, terrain, chugs of water, etc, one person might get a few hundred feet ahead, only for the other person to catch up as conditions shift. One thing I've noticed over the past few rides is that I'm more likely to catch up/pass other riders as the road pitches upwards, but strangely enough, have the most trouble keeping pace on flats or slight descents. What's strange about this is that I'm not a small guy - 190 lbs (~86kg) if we haven't gone out to eat in the past week, often a few lbs more than that. The people who seem to outpace me on flats/slight descents are easily 20-30 lbs lighter than me, and they're often the same ones that I'm able to pass on Harlem Hill (for example). Is it that I have decent burst/sprint wattage going up climbs that last 1-2 minutes? Or is it that I have pretty crappy sustained wattage on flat sections? Note, none of these sections are really longer than 3-4 minutes before the road pitches up or down, so I don't think it's a sustained wattage thing, either. I don't think it matters, but for reference, I'm riding a Cannondale CAAD8, home-built with Force22 and Zonda wheels w/Michelin Pro4 Endurance. Any thoughts on technique, training, diet, etc would be appreciated! Not looking to race anybody, just looking for explanations to help me understand. Also, wind is a cyclist's worst enemy. |
Originally Posted by aliasfox
(Post 22557835)
Apparently, according to one of the other posters, I probably am doing interval training, to a degree, without really trying to. Will try to be more even on one of my laps after work today.
On some structured training programs, you'll have interval sessions on some days and constant power sessions on some. On long rides, the best way to maximize average speed is by maintaining constant power output. You'll finish the ride in the fastest time by simply riding at constant power. Even if that sounds boring but that's how it works. |
Originally Posted by koala logs
(Post 22557923)
Interval training is also very useful but if you seldom or never do constant power training, you should start doing it more often.
On some structured training programs, you'll have interval sessions on some days and constant power sessions on some. On long rides, the best way to maximize average speed is by maintaining constant power output. You'll finish the ride in the fastest time by simply riding at constant power. Even if that sounds boring but that's how it works. |
Two guesses:
1. Your power is more variable than those people. They're holding a more constant power uphill and flat. Therefore you catch going up and fall back on the flats. 2. You might not have as aggressive a fit for the flats aero-wise versus them. |
It’s probably your brakes.
|
Originally Posted by koala logs
(Post 22557923)
Interval training is also very useful but if you seldom or never do constant power training, you should start doing it more often.
On some structured training programs, you'll have interval sessions on some days and constant power sessions on some. On long rides, the best way to maximize average speed is by maintaining constant power output. You'll finish the ride in the fastest time by simply riding at constant power. Even if that sounds boring but that's how it works. |
Originally Posted by aliasfox
(Post 22557112)
1. Doubtful my power to weight's any good - in fact, I'm almost certain I'm pitiful here :-P. I usually ride on the hoods, but even with bent elbows (tucked in) riding in the drops, I rarely reel anybody in.
2. I haven't checked recently, but I hold a cadence between 70-75rpm, and I have a corncob between 11-17 in the back. I'll shift up, only to shift back when my legs have decided they've had enough 3. You're the second commenter to suggest this - I might have to try taking it easy on the climbs, just to see what happens. I've always gone by the "it never hurts less, you just go faster" mantra, so maybe I should try making those climbs hurt less... |
Originally Posted by genejockey
(Post 22558179)
Get a wider cassette. The corncob is forcing you to work harder on the climbs than you need to.
|
Originally Posted by aliasfox
(Post 22558207)
The cassette is an 11-28, but is a corncob between 11-17, which is where I spend most of my time. Climbing isn't the issue for me here, rather flats performance.
Personally, I can't spin a cadence of 70-75 unless I'm on a climb >6%. I find it much easier to put down the power on the flats at a higher cadence - more like 93-103. |
Originally Posted by RChung
(Post 22557187)
I'm thinking you don't use a corncob on OLH.
- The bike I use on rail trails (no incline worse than 1.5%) happens to have a 34x34 low end - The bike I use around the city (only short climbs, no worse than 4%) is the 18lbs bike (with pedals) with a 32x28 low end - The bike I use on real climbs on the west coast is my oldest, heaviest, and fleeciest, and has a 32x27 low end, steepest of the three I may have my bikes in the wrong places. |
Originally Posted by genejockey
(Post 22558224)
Climbing isn't the issue, except you're passing people climbing who then drop you on the flats, which means you're working harder than they are on the climbs but not as hard on the flats. Generally big guys like us have less problem on the flats because aerodynamic drag doesn't increase all that much for us, but we can usually put out more power. And on slight descents we have even more advantage.
Personally, I can't spin a cadence of 70-75 unless I'm on a climb >6%. I find it much easier to put down the power on the flats at a higher cadence - more like 93-103. |
Originally Posted by aliasfox
(Post 22556588)
One thing I've noticed over the past few rides is that I'm more likely to catch up/pass other riders as the road pitches upwards, but strangely enough, have the most trouble keeping pace on flats or slight descents.
I’m a “grimper” (climber), of course. Folks that can put out the power on the flat are “roulers”. |
Originally Posted by aliasfox
(Post 22558232)
I have trouble with cadences outside of 65-80 (rough estimate). Spinning at or above 90rpm for even a short amount of time has always gotten me winded.
|
Originally Posted by terrymorse
(Post 22558237)
If you had a power meter, you’d see that your power is higher on the uphill than on the flat. I’m the same. My power meter drops off as soon as the road turns flat. It takes me much more concentration to keep the power from dropping.
I’m a “grimper” (climber), of course. Folks that can put out the power on the flat are “roulers”. |
Originally Posted by aliasfox
(Post 22558232)
I have trouble with cadences outside of 65-80 (rough estimate). Spinning at or above 90rpm for even a short amount of time has always gotten me winded.
so, increase efficiency by 'training' muscles to become more efficient. Train your muscles/pedal stroke to eventually become comfortable at 90+ rpm for steady riding. You can't do it in one 'jump' and it takes a relatively long process, done in increments (Many months, some times seasons...). If you're comfortable at 70-75 rpm on the flat, then work on riding at 75+ for very extended riding, using whatever gear allows you to do that... Your heart rate will become uncomfortable... drop a gear (this process works great with close gearing jumps !). Eventually you will be able to ride at 75+ in the gear you once rode at 70... Now do the same process at 80+ rpm... Repeat, until 90-95 becomes comfy, with a good size gear - Hence Eddy's quote " Spin a Big Gear!" This is how beginner racers should train. This is how young Juniors are trained, to build efficiency AND power, as they continue to grow. Yes, riders can all have different capabilities, but they are ALL dictated by their own balance of power/cardio and efficiency ultimately sets your personal ceiling. Ride On Yuri |
Originally Posted by eduskator
(Post 22558326)
+1. My jaw drops every time I climb & check my wattage... 180w average to roll 30kph on the flat & 400w average when climbing at 15kph. Newton isn't our friend, that's for sure.
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Originally Posted by aliasfox
(Post 22558166)
One of my rides when I'm outside of the city includes an 8 mile climb at a heady 0.5-1%, would chugging up that be considered a 'constant power session?'
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Originally Posted by aliasfox
(Post 22558232)
I have trouble with cadences outside of 65-80 (rough estimate). Spinning at or above 90rpm for even a short amount of time has always gotten me winded.
Perhaps, it's easier for me to spin extra high cadence because of my petite build and little weight but apparently, even pros who weigh a lot more and bigger than me can also spin comfortably at 110 rpm. I'm still training to increase my cadence further. Just looking if I can still improve efficiency beyond 110 rpm. Take it up to 120 or even 130 rpm, observe for a few months if that improves my average speeds on long rides. So far, 110 rpm is currently giving me the best average speeds on long rides. Your bike fit would actually start to feel different as you get used to higher cadences so you may need to re-visit your bike fit as well. |
Originally Posted by koala logs
(Post 22558662)
Just looking if I can still improve efficiency beyond 110 rpm. Take it up to 120 or even 130 rpm, observe for a few months if that improves my average speeds on long rides.
|
Originally Posted by terrymorse
(Post 22558760)
There’s no way that a cadence over 110 is metabolically efficient. Too much energy is wasted just moving the legs.
Pro TT racers will often hold cadence of up to 120 rpm during races. |
Originally Posted by koala logs
(Post 22559028)
It's actually easy once you get used to it. If I set my trainer to zero resistance and just pedal along at 120 rpm for 10 minutes or more, my heart rate doesn't go any higher than 75 bpm and my breathing doesn't feel elevated at all. It feels literally effortless like I'm doing nothing and just sitting at my chair reading a good book. But that only came after two months of progressive training for increasing cadence rpm.
Pro TT racers will often hold cadence of up to 120 rpm during races. |
Originally Posted by koala logs
(Post 22559028)
Pro TT racers will often hold cadence of up to 120 rpm during races.
|
Originally Posted by terrymorse
(Post 22558760)
There’s no way that a cadence over 110 is metabolically efficient. Too much energy is wasted just moving the legs.
|
Originally Posted by koala logs
(Post 22559028)
[Cadence of 110 or more is] actually easy once you get used to it.
You can't change physics. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...aeed134d1d.png Scott et at, The Effect of Cadence on the Mechanics and Energetics of Constant Power Cycling Pro TT racers will often hold cadence of up to 120 rpm during races. |
So, did 28 miles yesterday, including three laps of Central Park. Didn't have anyone going my pace, so can't comment on that, but have a few other observations:
- I apparently pedal faster in real life than on my mag trainer. The 70-75rpm estimate was based off of that this winter, but I was pretty close to 80rpm most of the time in the real world - I laid off the gas going uphill (not gasping for breath at the top) for my first two laps, and tried getting on the gas a little earlier/harder after I crested. This resulted in some of the slowest lap times I've recorded this year - I don't like soft pedaling on the hills - Went hard on the climbs on my last lap, which actually turned out to be my best one of the day Don't have a power meter, but using Bike Calculator on segments with consistent grades, I see similar results to eduskator - an estimated 170-180w steady-state performance, and ~300w on hills, depending on pitch and duration. I guess I just assumed everyone else picks up 50-100% wattage when the road goes up. I guess not! |
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