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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

3speedslow 08-27-17 09:26 AM

Thanks everybody! Now I know what to look for.

Salubrious 08-27-17 11:19 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19819649)
The frames were the same. They just drilled two holes through the brackets at the downtube joints to mount the rod brake linkage to the rear wheel.

That makes sense- the frame geometry of my .35 is pretty relaxed. It uses cable operated drum brakes front and rear.

SirMike1983 08-27-17 11:42 AM


Originally Posted by arty dave (Post 19820694)
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4362/...58f82679_k.jpgIMG20170827154842 by arty dave armour, on Flickr

The AW internals are at the back, S5 in the middle, AB at the front.
For a proper clean I would lever out the ball bearing retainers (labyrinth seals I think they're called) to get the ball bearings out.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4405/...6f3f4883_c.jpgIMG20170827155936 by arty dave armour, on Flickr

Planet cages L to R - AW, S5, AB

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4354/...2bcde71a_c.jpgIMG20170826155559 by arty dave armour, on Flickr

AB innards next to an S5 in an AW shell

Good photos. This thread has become a good reference resource. My only concern with it is that it's a ton of pages to sift through just to find the one or two reference posts we're looking for. What we should really do is have a single thread or even a blog devoted to resource posts such as this that have become buried in this thread.

BigChief 08-27-17 11:55 AM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 19821374)
That makes sense- the frame geometry of my .35 is pretty relaxed. It uses cable operated drum brakes front and rear.

It does seem strange to me that Raleigh kept a line of rod brake bikes in production so long after cable operated caliper brakes became available. They even developed the dual use westrick rims for 26" models and the DL1 never lost it's rod brake system. The only reason I can think of is that there may have been enough conservative customers who demanded traditional bikes and Raleigh didn't want to rock the boat. I remember when motorcycles first started using electric starters. For a few years, they had both electric and kick. It was a while before they phased out kick starters entirely. Must be something like that.

thumpism 08-27-17 12:05 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19821438)
...I remember when motorcycles first started using electric starters. For a few years, they had both electric and kick. It was a while before they phased out kick starters entirely. Must be something like that.

As the former longtime owner of one of Yamaha's legendary problematic-electric-starter models, I certainly wished many times they'd kept up the kickstarter practice a few years longer.

SirMike1983 08-27-17 12:13 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19821438)
It does seem strange to me that Raleigh kept a line of rod brake bikes in production so long after cable operated caliper brakes became available. They even developed the dual use westrick rims for 26" models and the DL1 never lost it's rod brake system. The only reason I can think of is that there may have been enough conservative customers who demanded traditional bikes and Raleigh didn't want to rock the boat. I remember when motorcycles first started using electric starters. For a few years, they had both electric and kick. It was a while before they phased out kick starters entirely. Must be something like that.

The British cycle industry was one of the most conservative for a long time. Even for a time after WWII, there was a fairly widely-held view in Britain that steel components (including rims) were superior to aluminum ones. Many people would laugh at that viewpoint today, especially as to the rims. After WWII it also took awhile for continental (tighter) geometry to reach British road bikes.

In addition to underlying conservatism in design, you have the fact that the machines used to produce the bikes and parts have a fairly long life if the manufacturing machines are of high quality. So the machines and materials used to make the parts will have a lingering effect as well. "I've already got all this stuff to build a rod brake bike, so why not try to get a little money for it."

Then you do have some conservative segments of the cycling public as well. The somewhat older cyclists who preferred 3-speeds during the bike boom of the 1970s are an example. There are some people who just like older stuff. I knew an older college professor who commuted to work every day on a 1970s-era DL-1 up until maybe 5 years ago.

browngw 08-27-17 12:28 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Saw this great old Rudge Pathfinder ad while browsing today.

dweenk 08-27-17 12:29 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19821438)
It does seem strange to me that Raleigh kept a line of rod brake bikes in production so long after cable operated caliper brakes became available. They even developed the dual use westrick rims for 26" models and the DL1 never lost it's rod brake system. The only reason I can think of is that there may have been enough conservative customers who demanded traditional bikes and Raleigh didn't want to rock the boat. I remember when motorcycles first started using electric starters. For a few years, they had both electric and kick. It was a while before they phased out kick starters entirely. Must be something like that.

The DL-1 was meant to last a lifetime, maybe that's why Raleigh came up with the dual purpose rim.

3speedslow 08-27-17 01:52 PM

5 Attachment(s)
Shifter disassembly

Could not come up with a hardwood block so I found a tough piece of heart pine. Drilled two holes to match the pins that have to be driven out. Didn't go all the way through the wood so the pins would stay in the wood pockets. Previously put tri-flow on both sides and let it soak.

It took all of 3 taps with the small hammer and the 1/16 punch to knock out the pins... success!

Now on to cleanup.

3speedslow 08-27-17 02:02 PM

I took this shifter apart because the case had been smashed. Now I need to figure out how to straighten the plates. @BigChief has given some good advice and will work that into my plan.

I was pleased to see that the cable housing cover is a screw in. I will need to go look for one of those for the other shifter I will work on next. That one has a busted spring. With luck I should have both shifters ready for projects.

3speedslow 08-27-17 03:16 PM

1 Attachment(s)
finally located some bronze wool in the next town at a blue water marine supply shop. Great stuff for gentle cleaning of these old bikes. First up is a dunk in some OA for awhile to see if it takes some of the rust away. The parts were more caked with oils and grime then anything else.

gster 08-27-17 04:39 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19821645)
Shifter disassembly

Could not come up with a hardwood block so I found a tough piece of heart pine. Drilled two holes to match the pins that have to be driven out. Didn't go all the way through the wood so the pins would stay in the wood pockets. Previously put tri-flow on both sides and let it soak.

It took all of 3 taps with the small hammer and the 1/16 punch to knock out the pins... success!

Now on to cleanup.

Thanks for taking the time to take the photos.
Very helpful.

3speedslow 08-27-17 04:48 PM


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 19821492)
Saw this great old Rudge Pathfinder ad while browsing today.


I have that image saved on my computer. So classy and idyllic. I would love to find one of those Rudge aero Clubman machines.

arty dave 08-27-17 05:03 PM

Any suggestions on how to clean surface rust from around the inner hub flanges and inside 'corners' of a hub shell? The spokes are making it tricky to get anything in there. I might have to de-lace the wheel? It's been laced with stainless spokes that are in good condition.

Sir Mike, yes, I have really enjoyed reading through the thread, it's such a great mixture of images and info, advice and opinions, innovations and speculations. I agree, a resource of some kind would be good for just technical stuff. Now who do we know that has an awesome blog that already has great technical content...hmmm :) Sir Mike you're quite welcome to any of my images and/or comments.

If people gave technical posts a post title, would they become more searchable or googleable?

BigChief 08-27-17 07:47 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19821661)
I took this shifter apart because the case had been smashed. Now I need to figure out how to straighten the plates. @BigChief has given some good advice and will work that into my plan.

I was pleased to see that the cable housing cover is a screw in. I will need to go look for one of those for the other shifter I will work on next. That one has a busted spring. With luck I should have both shifters ready for projects.

Looks like you're going to have to cold forge that case back into shape. I have a 1/4"x3/4" steel bar, but I'm the kind of guy that has a lot of odd ball stuff around. I was thinking that a 1/4" thick crescent wrench would work. You would need to drive it into the case then hammer the case on a flat surface. If you don't have a rubber hammer, use heavy paper to protect the case from hammer dings. On the good side, the case steel is very soft, not springy. It will stay where you move it. Soft hits is all you need. I don't know about OA, but I'm sure evapo-rust won't hurt the colors on the face plate. This shifter looks good. I think it will turn out beautifully.
The only reason I have so much experience with these is because I bought a box full of SA stuff years ago at a auction. Must have a dozen shifters. When I didn't have a bike to work on, I fixed up shifters.

3speedslow 08-27-17 08:50 PM

All good stuff @BigChief

I will wander back into the LBS and look through the scrap metal piles he has. Might find a small bit that fits snug in the case. The owner used to build frames and did a lot of repairs. Kind of guy that made his own tools when he didn't have one for the job.

Rubber hammer, got one. Clean up went well. The OA used was low grade called barkeeps friend. Watched it close and treated it when the work was done. Turned out good!

noglider 08-28-17 10:05 AM


Originally Posted by arty dave (Post 19821976)
Any suggestions on how to clean surface rust from around the inner hub flanges and inside 'corners' of a hub shell? The spokes are making it tricky to get anything in there. I might have to de-lace the wheel? It's been laced with stainless spokes that are in good condition.

Go to the plumbing section of your hardware store and pick up some brushes with brass bristles. They won't scratch steel.

Salubrious 08-28-17 11:20 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 19821470)
After WWII it also took awhile for continental (tighter) geometry to reach British road bikes.

Funny- some of that stuff is coming back- relaxed geometry is showing up in mountain bikes now.


JohnDThompson 08-28-17 03:05 PM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 19821470)
The British cycle industry was one of the most conservative for a long time. Even for a time after WWII, there was a fairly widely-held view in Britain that steel components (including rims) were superior to aluminum ones.

I think at least some of it was that the British steel industry was a matter of serious national pride, and by marketing their "All Steel Bicycles" Raleigh tapped into that sentiment.

clubman 08-28-17 05:24 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 19823602)
Funny- some of that stuff is coming back- relaxed geometry is showing up in mountain bikes now.

I'm buying what he's selling. Best truss fork ever!

3speedslow 08-28-17 07:39 PM

1 Attachment(s)
No chance today to put the shifter together. Probably happen tomorrow. We have a nice tropical storm walking over us then.

Ahhh, got ahead of myself. Still need to work the case back to shape

Here is everything all cleaned up.

SirMike1983 08-28-17 09:06 PM


Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 19824230)
I think at least some of it was that the British steel industry was a matter of serious national pride, and by marketing their "All Steel Bicycles" Raleigh tapped into that sentiment.

That's quite true, and there was a bit of truth to the claim initially. Steel parts were tested and proved, but there were some production and durability issues with some of the earlier aluminum parts. Steel also had a more user-friendly failure mode than aluminum.

Some of the premium steel and "stainless" steel Raleigh parts from the 1940s-50s are really beautifully finished.

BigChief 08-28-17 09:19 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19824739)
No chance today to put the shifter together. Probably happen tomorrow. We have a nice tropical storm walking over us then.

Ahhh, got ahead of myself. Still need to work the case back to shape

Here is everything all cleaned up.

Looking good!

campngolf 08-28-17 11:17 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19824739)
No chance today to put the shifter together. Probably happen tomorrow. We have a nice tropical storm walking over us then.

Ahhh, got ahead of myself. Still need to work the case back to shape

Here is everything all cleaned up.

Thanks for all the details. All the help here gives me the encouragement I need to overhaul my twitchy shifter. I figure if I booger it up real bad, ya'll will talk me back from the edge.

Camp

plympton 08-29-17 08:00 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Attachment 578270I'll be taking my bike home tomorrow. Probably start the restoration in two or three weeks so I'm trying to narrow down the year. Ser. # 69722. With everyone here's help I have it between 1950 and 1954. The oiler, the brazed guide the front drop is pressed not brazed and a couple of other features can be seen behind the late sixties repaint. I can not see a date on the single speed hub. As I search images and learn a little bit more I'm wondering if there are Raleighs of this vintage that are dated wrong, ie; if the hub says 55 it must be a 55, why do you believe that. I'm old enough to have owned this bike, at ten years old I would definitely change the hub if something went wrong. Question: are there any other subtle things that I should look for to narrow down the year.

BigChief 08-29-17 08:23 AM

Raleighs were not produced in model year series. Changes occurred over time and we do have an accurate chronology of their order, but not specific dates. As you know, Raleigh serial numbers aren't an accurate resource for dating manufacture, so we are left with factory catalogs, ads, old photos and personal recollections. Luckily, Sturmey Archer usually stamped dates of manufacture on their IG hub shells. We 3 speeders use the hub dates as a general reference to date our bikes with the understanding that they aren't entirely accurate and it is possible that the hub may not be original to the frame. Although they usually are and if there is a wide difference of the hub date and frame features, the replaced hub is obvious. Still, hub dates are close enough that we have an idea of the age and style bike we are talking about.
edit: We can also tell if a wheel was built by Raleigh because they used a 3x over, over, over pattern that nobody else is likely to use. Most anybody that builds up a wheel will use a 3x over, over under pattern.

curbtender 08-29-17 09:43 AM

Looking for some love... https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bik...259056020.html
https://images.craigslist.org/00y0y_...3u_600x450.jpg

3speedslow 08-29-17 09:56 AM

Neat, an old Rudge. Probably has the hand crankset hiding behind the case.

BigChief 08-29-17 10:10 AM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19826051)
Neat, an old Rudge. Probably has the hand crankset hiding behind the case.

Yeah, it's a good thing I'm on the other side of the country. I'd be out 120 bucks. Hard to resist that one even with a 21" frame.

SirMike1983 08-29-17 10:53 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19826093)
Yeah, it's a good thing I'm on the other side of the country. I'd be out 120 bucks. Hard to resist that one even with a 21" frame.

Yeah - I was interested since it would fit me, but my contact out there recently moved away from there.


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